Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have decided that after 8 years of breeding and being pretty much shackled to my breeders through the summer, that this is THE year that I have decided to not let my laying females schedule when and for how long I go on vacation. So, I have decided to throw caution to the wind and allow my females to take care of their own eggs until I decide to return.
That said,
I have read a few sites that touch on maternal incubation but most of them are for (and by) the hobbyist who doesn't have the type of set-up that many medium/large scale breeders run.
My questions:
1. Brooding female can increase both the temperature and humidity to maintain perfect conditions for their eggs, but cannot lower either. If this is the case, what type of modifications would I need to do to a rack-type enclosure to ensure that the female is working with a good base:
Rubbermaid #2221 (16"X6"X23" bin
large water dish (3 quarts/6 liters)
Unprinted newspaper bedding
90 degree (temp-gunned) warm side
80-82 (also temp-gunned) cool side
60-65% relative humidity
Adequate air circulation

Would I need to modify any of these husbandry issues to allow the female to do her job for the week or two that I will be absent?
Any insights would be appreciated as the literature I've found was lacking.
Thanks in advance.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

i know this doesn't answer your questions, but i tried maternal incubation from out of the female to the 36day mark....then chickened out and pull the eggs.

when i had did it i used coconut coir and had the water bowl in the hot side to produce the humidity.

i'm sure the eggs would have hatched out fine...i just chickened out for go full term.

i checked the tubs every day by pulling it out to have a visual and to allow air exchange. keep in mind i did this in a melamine rack....not an open air (metal) rack.

with you having 8 yrs in the hobby...i'm sure all would be ok.

Pitoon

>>I have decided that after 8 years of breeding and being pretty much shackled to my breeders through the summer, that this is THE year that I have decided to not let my laying females schedule when and for how long I go on vacation. So, I have decided to throw caution to the wind and allow my females to take care of their own eggs until I decide to return.
>>That said,
>>I have read a few sites that touch on maternal incubation but most of them are for (and by) the hobbyist who doesn't have the type of set-up that many medium/large scale breeders run.
>>My questions:
>>1. Brooding female can increase both the temperature and humidity to maintain perfect conditions for their eggs, but cannot lower either. If this is the case, what type of modifications would I need to do to a rack-type enclosure to ensure that the female is working with a good base:
>>Rubbermaid #2221 (16"X6"X23" bin
>>large water dish (3 quarts/6 liters)
>>Unprinted newspaper bedding
>>90 degree (temp-gunned) warm side
>>80-82 (also temp-gunned) cool side
>>60-65% relative humidity
>>Adequate air circulation
>>
>>Would I need to modify any of these husbandry issues to allow the female to do her job for the week or two that I will be absent?
>>Any insights would be appreciated as the literature I've found was lacking.
>>Thanks in advance.
>>-----
>>www.strictlyballs.ca
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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

Best of luck to you this season with allowing your female to maternally incubate her eggs.

I've maternally incubated successfully for 3 seasons in a row as for raising temps... ball pythons are much differen't from the burms, retics and ect,... who actually can slightly raise their temps...

Balls really don't do much of anything but just sit on those eggs during incubation. So long as you feed your females very well in the off season and leading up to/during breeding season female ball pythons will do a great job doing what they have instinctively done for millions of years!

Sounds like your temps are good but I would try to bump the humidity up... something that I have found to help is adding some damp wrungout perlite in the enclosure whether in it's own little "moss box" type of container with holes for the moisture to escape into the cage or just placed inside the tub on one side/floor of the enclosure... I would also recommend keeping the waterbowl right next to her and the eggs as well so she doesn't have too uncoil much to get a drink... Anything to make it easier on the female is always nice.

I tried to pull up some pics from my photobucket account... But my company has blocked the use of photobucket!! =(

I'll post some pics later...

While many Python species are able to maintain proper incubation temperatures via thermoregulatory twitching...Ball Pythons do not engage in this behavior.
Rather, Ball Pythons merely exhibit brooding behavior, (wrapping around the eggs).

So, your Ball Pythons will not be able to raise or lower the temps. In actuality Ball Pythons are not capable of true maternal incubation.
True maternal incubation is seen is several other species...such as Burmese Pythons.

Although you may have seen Ball Pythons successfully hatched without the use of an actual incubator (Randy Remington posted some photos) we should keep in mind that the temperatures and humidity levels were maintained by the keeper....Not by the brooding female Ball Python. If your cage temperature and humidity conditions mimic that of an incubator...You should experience success.
Essentially you will have created a cage which is also an incubator.
If the temperatures in your cage/room fluctuate...the brooding female will NOT be able to raise the temps or lower them. As Ball Pythons only brood (wrap) the eggs and do not actually incubate the eggs.
In the case of Burmese Pythons you would be able to allow the female to help control the temperatures to some degree. Burmese Pythons do more than merely brood the eggs....they can also use the thermoregulatory twitching (muscular activity) to raise the temps. When temps start getting too high...they will loosen their coils and allow some of the heat to dissipate.
Humidity is regulated to some degree by the tightness or looseness of the coils.
I have also heard that incubating snakes may urinate on the substrate to help maintain proper humidity levels. However, I have not witnessed this behavior.

If you want to leave while you are expecting Ball Python eggs...you will need to control both the humidity and the temperatures manually. Essentially you are making a snake room that is also an incubator.
Hope that information is helpful.
Keep us posted.

Oh yeah...and I think your humidity levels may be a little too low.
Perhaps you could use a serious humidifier to keep the whole snake room more humid.
Like maybe 85-90 % humidity?

The Sutherlands have a pretty serious humidifier in their snake room. You might want to ask them about it.
Good luck.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

If you have heated racks, the female will pick the spot she likes and lay on it...usually right beside the hot spot is what mine do....anywhere around 88 will do.....

make it humid.....they'll be ok....

.....good luck....

....vacation?.....what's that???....I'll have to Google it....
never had one............

.....no way I'd try it in open topped racks......

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......JY

Wonder whether it would be possible to set the mom up in your incubation tub i.e. inside your incubator? Would require a pretty deep tub of course. And you would need enough air holes to not put mom at risk of oxygen deprivation, which would then give up some ground on humidity. But it avoids the problem of mom setting up over the hot spot in your rack, and the humidity would probably still be better than most vented racks . Probably could only work using light diffuser on top of saturated vermiculite; direct contact with medium exposes mom to too much risk of belly rot even if you are only gone one week. Not sure how keen mom would be about dropping a clutch on light diffuser either. Don't know if this is even feasible, just thinking out loud...Dave

putting the mother and eggs into the incubator "together".......defeats the purpose of maternal incubation.

Pitoon

>>Wonder whether it would be possible to set the mom up in your incubation tub i.e. inside your incubator? Would require a pretty deep tub of course. And you would need enough air holes to not put mom at risk of oxygen deprivation, which would then give up some ground on humidity. But it avoids the problem of mom setting up over the hot spot in your rack, and the humidity would probably still be better than most vented racks . Probably could only work using light diffuser on top of saturated vermiculite; direct contact with medium exposes mom to too much risk of belly rot even if you are only gone one week. Not sure how keen mom would be about dropping a clutch on light diffuser either. Don't know if this is even feasible, just thinking out loud...Dave
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2010 European Shows

Va·ca·tion
Pronunciation: vâ-ˈkâ-shən, və-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English vacacioun, from Anglo-French vacacion, from Latin vacation-, vacatio freedom, exemption, from vacare
1 : a respite or a time of respite from something : intermission
2 a : a scheduled period during which activity (as of a court or school) is suspended b : a period of exemption from work granted to an employee
3 : a period spent away from home or business in travel or recreation
4 : an act or an instance of vacating

Thank you guys so much for the information. I also posed this conundrum on other forums, but if the question isn't about how big a rat to feed an adult, or why sheds aren't in one piece, the pickins' of experienced hobbysists who might be able to help are nil.
Knowing now that the females don't actually incubate as much as brood is excellent information to have.
I'll hopefully have no more than 4 clutches laying while I "vacate", so I'll have a decent amount of prep work to get their environments to where they will be optimal for keeping those eggs healthy until I swoop in and snatch them all away.
Again, thanks.
Michael.
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www.strictlyballs.ca