Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Updated photos of the mystery female. Any more thoughts?? Note the "dirty" belly and brown that I was finally able to capture in these images. Some say lodingi is in there, others say no. Please tell me your thoughts!!
Thanks,
--Brian

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--Brian Scott

My first thoughts are although, it is possible that there may be something else in there besides northern, it is still possible it could be a pure one as well.

Just because it has more black than most northerns we imagine to have, does not make it NOT a northern. Some northerns have a ton of black on their head, neck, and first part of the body. A buddy of mine saw wild northerns recently, and let me tell you, there was a lot of black on it as well. The belly having pattern on it is not indicative of being impure. I have many northerns that have some pattern as well. Not a lot, but some checkers.

Your specimen could very well be a above-average example of an incredible amount of black. All I can suggest is to find out as much as you can about that snake's particular lineage, and go from there.
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Genesis 1:1

Discern,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that she may very well be pure. The only locality data that I have for this snake is from a guy in TN who I bought her from, along with another odd-colored female. It has been suggested that both animals originated from AL, although he states they were sold to him as CB animals at a show. We have all heard that before, though.

I did not post photos of her last year when I got her for several reasons, most notably I wanted to put some size on her and see if she would be interested in breeding. That question was answered when she laid 9 eggs today. Curious to see what comes of them when they hatch.

Also, I agree about the belly checkers, but I must say that the vast majority of the wild northerns that I have seen here in NJ had immaculate belly scutes. Maybe those from AL typically don't? Anyone's guess really. Bart???

As for her breeding, unplanned. Now what the heck am I gonna do with these things if they are hybrids? I am a purist, almost Nazi-like in purity when it comes to snakes, but she was too cool to pass up and her "sister" is unreal. Maybe I will post some photos of her, too ))

I have been toying with the idea of giving her away, but I will kick myself if she turns out to be something super unique (as if she's not already!).

With regards to the black in her, I have seen wild northerns here in the Pine Barrens show more black than her, so that does not freak me out. It's how the black looks and how it's patterned on her that makes me think more.

I, too, have seen black pine x northern pine hybrids and they have looked NOTHING like her. Maybe I need to see more of them, though. Who knows.

I guess I'll just sit back and ride the wave for a while )

Thanks,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

Scroll down to your original post; I gave my opinion of it there.

Bart

Thanks Bart!!
Time for another phone call. Please let me know when you have time.
Cheers,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

Yea, I hear ya abou the hybrid issue and what to do. If the babies are hybrids, just give them away to be pets.

BUT, like I said and others are saying, she may very well be pure. Variation occurs so much more than we think. Just go with your gut, with your info, and that is all you have.

I am leaning on that she is pure, IMO.
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy!
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--Brian Scott

My guess would be pure Northern Pine, and one fine looking specimen IMO. I see nothing in these pictures that suggests otherwise.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Realistically we can't be certain. Judging by some of the very experienced opinions it could very easily be "pure" but at best we're all just guessing. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it when it's not something that anyone can be certain about.

For me it isn't just the dark colouration, or the belly (my Northern male has the same checkered belly), but more the overall "stouter" body look in combination with where the extra dark colour and pattern is.

I also haven't seen a lodingi x northern in person to be able to compare though, or anywhere near the experience with Pituophis as most of the other folks voicing opinions.
Just the first impression I got looking at the first set of pics compared to my experience with my blacks and northerns and some black pine x bull snake mutts a friend has. Pattern-wise it mostly just darkened his bulls up and had a very similar melanistic look as this example with most of the extra dark in the front half, just with the bull snake basic look rather than a northern.

Now the last pics look more northern to me. I don't know if it's the other opinions now influencing what I'm looking at, or just could very well have been the way the first shots turned out...

Great info, thanks guys!
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--Brian Scott