Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got some Mazuri for my sulcata tort.
He wasn't interested in eating it at all, so I microwaved a sweet potato, moistened the pellets, and mashed it all up together. He really oinked out on it then!

I was wondering how much and how often I should feed my 25 pounder. He still grazes to his heart's content, and gets veggies with calcium supplements.

I'd appreciate any suggestions and input.

Thanks,
Pamela

If it's grazing, once or twice a week is a good schedule for the Mazuri.
Ed

If the tort is happy grazing and there is no shortage of stuff to graze upon, is there any need for the Mazuri?

Maybe there is no need for it but once again you can't argue with results.
Everyone talks about feeding a natural diet. There are a bunch of flaws with this line of thought.
You have to know what they eat in the wild over a given year in the first place. Then you have to obtain the same plants and or bugs/animal protein or obtain the nutritional composition of that mix and then try and come up with a nutritional equivelent and put that together.
So, as you can see there are a huge number of unknowns. Then what it comes down to is your guess is as good as anybodies.
I've spent 25 plus years playing with diets and have found that this Mazuri adds something (and I don't know what it is) that provides something that gives the results that most tortoise keepers have been hunting for and still do.
Ed

First, I'm not trying to "argue" here. I use Mazuri, too.
I'm just trying to figure out why we would use it in place of what is free.

Mazuri is made of what?

From the website: "Ground soybean hulls, ground corn, ground oats, dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, cane molasses ...."

Their diet for omnivoruos bears: " Wheat middlings, ground corn, porcine meat meal, dehulled soybean meal, ground wheat, soybean oil, dried whey..."

Kangaroos: "Wheat middlings, ground corn, ground oats, dehulled soybean meal, ground soybean hulls, wheat germ, ground wheat, cane molasses, soybean oil, fructose..."

Exotic Canine "Ground corn, poultry by-product meal, ground brown rice, corn gluten meal, animal fat preserved with BHA,poultry fat preserved with ethoxyquin, poultry digest, porcine meat meal, brewers dried yeast, dried beet pulp, ground soybean hulls, dried whey,..."

It seems to me that Mazuri has done what most pet food companies do: Take soy and grain products, which are usually not part of the animal's usual diet, and then crammed in some minerals and vitamins to overcome the fact that corn, wheat, and soy have lots of short comings (high phosphorous content, goitrogens, etc.). I guess I just don't think Mazuri is anything special. The nutrient breakdowns of the various dry tortoise foods are about the same: 10-20% protein, 10-20% crude fiber. And all based on corn/soy/alfalfa/wheat products.

Also looks like I could use Mazuri Kangaroo food instead :->

I have noticed that my torts really do like the Mazuri and it makes a convenient method for giving them a high-fiber food instead of grocery greens (when I'm out of weeds), or with extra calcium powder, a high calcium supplement.

But they also really like RepCal and Pretty Pets tort foods. About the same ingredients, about the same nutrients. It's just that I can get Mazuri very cheaply and in small quantities vs the other stuff.

But in my limited range of experience my russians have grown and maintained very well during those months when they just eat weeds and grasses. And those are free.

I think if I lived in a more lush environment I would be tempted to use nothing but weeds and grasses for my small group of torts. I could see where someone with a large collection would need a compact and easily-prepared food.

In theory, the stuff might be bad for the tortoises but in practice it seems to provide all the indicators that the animal is healthy and growing normal.
I'll say it time and again, I don't understand why it produces the results it does but I'm pleased with those results and I've yet to find a single person that has used the stuff that is not pleased with the results.
When I say 'used the stuff' I mean the tortoise is fed and consumes it at least twice a week.
By all means, if you or anyone can obtain the same results on a free diet it would be silly to feed it. I suggest feeding it because, as I said, it seems to provide some missing components regardless where those components come from.
Ed

My approximately 4 year old sulcata was raised "naturally" in a very large pen where he happily grazed on an over abundance of grasses and weeds. I also gave veggies and hibiscus and kept cuttle bone around for him. He's beautiful! He has a wonderfully smooth shell....and I'm sad to say that HE HAS MBD.

I have to try something different 'cause "naturally" didn't work in this case. I plan on feeding him some sort of processed tort food with calcium supplements added and Hopefully he'll recover. I don't really care if it's Mazuri or some other brand....but Mazuri and Ziegler's (a brand that I'm not familiar with) were both suggested by my vet. A lot of people seem to use Mazuri, so I feel comfortable trying it out right now.

Pamela

My vet insisted RepCal tortoise food was the best. I got the impression he just had a deal with the distributor. RepCal is just the usual grains and soy mix with minerals and vitamins with a fruity scent added.

The calcium content of natural foods depends on the calcium content of the soil. I don't know the calcium content of the soil in my yard or the soil in the farms where the greens are grown.

So I always add calcium powder on a regular basis. I could not possibly quantify how much calcium I add, or how much actually makes into the tortoise. I've tried using cuttlebone chunks in the pen, but it seems that only the females gnaw on them every once in awhile. Maybe that's a sign they have sufficient calcium. Maybe they don't like cuttlebone. I do know that the eggs that have been laid, while infertile, do have strong shells.

Plus, from what I've read, there are other things that can interfere with calcium absorption: calcium oxalates, excess phosphorous levels, too little D3, imbalances of other nutrients like protein, etc.

Considering that there is almost no precise information on how to supplement a tortoise's diet, I'm surprised that we don't all have tortoises with signs of nutritional excesses or deficiency.

Good luck with your tortoise.

Hi Ed and all,

I have followed Mazuri discussions in many threads on this forum as well as the Yahoo Redfoot one, and you always mention these great results, that Mazuri produces.
As somebody else mentioned the components of Mazuri, being mainly grain and soy, most probably play a very small role in natural tort foods (even though grasses bear grains when at the seed stage of course) and are generally high in phosphorus and especially in phytic acid, which binds minerals (esp. zinc)and proteins, thereby inhibiting their uptake. Soy is also high in purines, thus being demanding on the kidneys.
So where is the magic? Is it in added vitamins or trace elements and can't these be supplied by a good multi vitamin / mineral supplement?
I personally keep Redfoots and have tried very hard to research their 'ideal, natural' diet. But as you mentioned here and elsewhere, this is almost impossible to achieve. Even D. Moskovits, who published a paper on Redfoot natural diet and went into much detail in her thesis about the subject, names a large number of plants and fruit, that are inaccessable to the average tortoise keeper, because they are native to Brazilian savannas and rainforests. And while Redfoots seem to consume animal protein in the form of insects, slugs, carcasses and the like, when they encounter it, she still cannot put any numbers on that consumption. And it is likely, that the amounts taken up vary vastly from animal to animal, season to season and region to region (like many other things she observed).
And judging by visible results, like pyramiding, might give a hint, but is not surefire either. R. Paull (I know,- mixed opinions here...) published an article in the Reptiles Magazine about a year ago. It was about a Redfoot excursion to a small Carribbean island. Amazingly, while Opunita cacti where abundant on that island and the tortoises where feeding on them a lot, they all showed varied degrees of pyramiding.
This being said,- and sorry for getting into all that, protein intake (Mazuri intake) and how much of it, will always be an issue of discussions.
To come back to my original questions though,- what are these amazing results? Is it fast growth and reaching of breeding size, production of lots of eggs? These being results that can be achieved with higher protein uptake, that can come from many different sources.
Or do you grow especially beautiful, smooth shelled, healthy (long term,- as liver and kidney diseases, that can result from high protein intake, do not necessarily show short term) individuals by feeding Mazuri?
Please share your experience with us!
Thanks, Gaby

The other frustrating thing on this topic is the attempt to quantify how or what foods to feed. I don't think this can be done. This is why I've always stressed variety in food items as a general rule. This way you are bound to hit the majority of what might be required the more variety you offer.
As to that article by RCP, take note that it was a very dry and sparcely vegitated island and was actually proof of how adaptive the RF is. Just because they were in the wild it does not mean that all that was required for their good development was available. That particular population (as others in that chain of islands) was introduced.
I've posted pictures before after one year of using Mazuri and I'll try to post some updated pictures. I have pictures of absolute successes and what I consider failures/faults.
As to the long term results... time will tell but it will also tell for all the recomended diets out there keeping in mind that all of these diets, including grasses and 'natural fare', are the ideas of what people think these guys need for good development.
I believe the only way we are going to know what they need is by trial and error.
Ed

I sure wish that keeping torts was a more exact science. I guess I've been spoiled by having "common" pets such as dogs, cats, and horses which seem to be easier to provide proper diets and care for .

I realize that there could be many possible combinations of variables that caused my tort's MBD. The ONLY thing that I absolutely know is that the care/diet that I've given him thus far as not been sufficient....or else he wouldn't have MBD.

My tort has a VERY large and varied grazing area. I have no idea what the nutritional content of the grasses and weeds he grazes on might be, but I assume that it's possible that they COULD be lacking in calcium or high in calcium oxalates, phosphorus, or protein..... But how would I ever know? The only thing that makes sense to me is to somehow change my tort's diet in the hope that he'll get better, or at least no worse. The changes that were recommended by my vet were a greater use of calcium supplements and the use of pelleted tort foods "such as" Mazuri or Zeigler's....which would contain minerals and vitamins. I still plan on my tortoise grazing as much as he wants, but I also plan on adding mazuri to his diet. I figure at this point, it can't hurt.

I appreciate everybody's input about tort diets. I admit I'm new to their use. I'm not particularly loyal to Mazuri...but there are quite a few people who seem to be pleased with it. If it's No Worse than other pelleted tort foods, then I'm ok with it. If someone can convince that there's a better/best pelleted tort food, then I'll happily use it....

Pamela

You want to talk frustration...
First of if these guys were not as challanging as they are I'd have a fish tank. That's half the fun and the reward when you get it close to right.
MBD can be brought on by Diet, Environmental Conditions or Disease. The bottom line is that almost anything can cause it but I believe the most important factors are heat and hydration. On the hydration, you really can't give them too much water and on the heat, we have a pretty good idea of what we need considering that these guys are dependent on their environment for proper metabolism. If you maximize these components I found the others are more forgiving.
You didn't mention how much water your guy gets or the temperatures at which you keep it.
Ed

I live in SE Georgia where it gets pretty hot, but this year we've had a pretty mild summer. Our summer temperatures ranged from the high 80s to high 90s during the daytime and in the high 70s to low 80s at night.

I have a pool that my tort can easily get in and out of and soak and drink at will. I can't say for sure how much he really drinks.

When he became sick, I began to soak him every day...sometimes twice a day. I've stopped doing that now, but I do actually put him in his pool once a day. Sometimes he drinks, most of the time he doesn't.

Pamela

Parasites or not enough calcium.
I use tons of calcium in the form of calcium carbonate.
I do have a problem with MBD in my iguanas and it seems to be from hydration. They will not take water from a bowl but when I hose them down they will drink from a puddle. So, it's extra work but I hose them down daily. My male lost the use of his leg because of this. It is slowly returning.
Ed

I'm giving a lot more calcium than before.

How could I entice my tort to drink more if he's not inclined to on his own? I've tried putting his veggies in shallow bowls that have water in them.... I figured he'd at least get Some moisture that way.

I have noticed that he ALWAYS goes on a grazing rampage when it rains. I've tried a sprinkler, but didn't get the same results.

Pamela

Try sinking a water dish in front or around the area where he sleeps so he has to run into it when he beds down. Outside of that I can only suggest daily waterings.
Ed

If your tortoise has MBD than their are probably a lot of silicatas out there that do also - nice growth, strong legs, etc.

As far as getting enough water - try soaking him - now that big brute will probably need a baby pool, or some other large plastic container or box.

I think you are doing a great job.

Bill