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Well this is a first for me. I just hatched out a spider het hypo out which looked perfect.....until you see it's heart beating outside it's body.

i'm surprise the hatchling is still alive with such a vital organ outside it's body. So far it looks healthy, but not to sure how long it will last in this condition.

keeping my fingers crossed for this little one!!!

Pitoon

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i just recently seen this same thing on someones website i cant remember who though but it was also a spider and he was able to push it back into the cavity and stitched it with dental flass and it made it fine homemade surgery in all i wish i could remember the site for you because he had the whole surgery process laid out with pics and then at a year old before she left for a new home. maybe someone else will chime in who knows about this snake i cant even remember the snakes name wich he had it labled on his site and her whole story. hope she lives for you regards

Very strange. I would say, unless you are going to try to place the organ inside the body cavity so he can heal, I recommend humanely euthanizing him. Otherwise, the most likely causes of death (that I can think of) would be damage to the heart or massive infection.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

http://www.baileyreptiles.com/grace.html

thanks for the link....

i've got some thinking to do now.

Pitoon

>>http://www.baileyreptiles.com/grace.html
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Pitoon,

See if you can push it back inside.

Once, while road hunting for snakes, I found an Emory's Rat Snake that had been hit by a passing car. The only visible damage to the snake was that it's heart was outside of the coelomic cavity...it was dangling from the snake's underbelly.
The heart was beating perfectly and the snake seemed in decent shape, except for the cut on it's underside...and the heart issue!
I simply pushed the heart back into the coelomic cavity and kinda pinched the cut closed. I did not think it would survive the night...but it did.
I placed the snake in my quarantine room, in a simple cage with newsprint for substrate, a water dish and a hide box.
This little snake quickly went into a shed cycle. After the shed, I could see where the scar line was from the incident with the vehicle...but the wound was closed.
I kept this snake for one more shed cycle. Then, I released it back where it was captured.
This experience gave me a little faith in another road injured snake that I later encountered. This time it was a Western Midget Faded Rattlesnake (C. concolor).
The snake looked perfect other than a small cut in the side of it's neck. In fact I only noticed it because of a small speck of blood on it's back.....As soon as I saw the spot of blood I gave the snake a closer examination. That small cut in the side of the snake's neck would not have seemed so dire... Except that every time the snake exhaled...air bubbled out of the cut. When the snake inhaled...the cut would open up. I took the snake home and set it up in the same type of temporary enclosure in the quarantine room. This time I smeared a little bit of silvadene antibiotic cream on the surface of the cut. Other than that, I left the snake alone. It too healed perfectly....and was released back where it was found.
(C.concolor are now a protected a species throughout most, if not all of their range.
I am amazed at how resilient and hardy reptiles can be. Best Wishes!

excellent work,
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

Thanks Kyle...

I appreciate that...but to be honest, perhaps it was just closer to dumb luck. lol.
The animals did more to heal themselves than anything I did.
Anyway, I think it is certainly worth a try. Perhaps he can save that little spider?

Take care,

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

Harlin,

you are way too modest,

all the best to you and your family, have a great 4th of July weekend.

best wishes, Kyle
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

Hey thanks Kyle!

I hope you and your family enjoy your 4th of July as well.
This summer is going way too fast!!!

See ya.

Harlin

i attempted to push the heart back inside the opening but it was a bit to tight. while trying to sew the opening closed, the way the heart was protruding from the hole the main artery was right at the edge of the opening and while trying to get some skin for the needle i nicked it, rupturing it.

at that point i stopped everything and placed it inside the freezer to end it. i feel a bit bad about it, but i think it was a no win situation. you let it be it dies...you do something to help it, it dies.

i think that this hatchling from the get go had a protruding heart where the skin grew around it to the point where it pinched it outside of the body. it wasn't the same type of prolapse that Baily had where it was more of a cut opening. this particular hole was clean opening to the inside, the skin was perfectly healed.

not feeling so good about it right now......but i did what i could do.......it is what it is.

Pitoon

>>Hey thanks Kyle!
>>
>>I hope you and your family enjoy your 4th of July as well.
>>This summer is going way too fast!!!
>>
>>See ya.
>>
>>Harlin
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glad you found the site with the info at least i did notice in the pics that it did not seem to have a area where you could push it back into the opening... pinched seems like a pretty good word for it. while it does suck cant be to hard on youre self after all this is the first for you so obviously you are doing something right at the same time. happy 4th regards

Hey Buddy,

I am really sorry to hear this. My condolences. You win some and you lose some.
The important thing, is that you gave it your best effort. It is better that you tried than just giving up at the first sign of trouble, and tossing it in the freezer. Perhaps you may have gained some insight from this situation that will help you to save an animal in the future. Sorry it did not work out this time.
I applaud your efforts.
Hopefully the rest of your season will be brighter.
Take care my friend.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

Pitoon,

sorry for your loss. you did try and you did care enough to do your best. that was all you could do.

best wishes, Kyle
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

I'm sorry for your loss. At least you gave it your best shot. As you said, this one little hatchling may have been beyond help. I hope it doesn't discourage you from helping ones in the future. They're all worth fighting for Best of luck to the rest of your season.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Ever think of taking it to a vet?? Cardiovascular surgery without anesthesia, analgesia, or aseptic technique?? Poor snake.

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Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

My local reptile vet is pretty flexible and thankfully willing to try lots of the new and slightly strange procedures that reptiles and amphibians require. But I think even he would shake his head at trying to reinsert the heart of a hatchling. I wonder if he would even try.

Furthermore, there is significant evidence from both research and veterinary care that snakes have little or no pain receptors on their ventral side. Which is why researchers implant PIT tags at the edge of the ventral scales, less stress to the animal so it can be released immediately.

Did you read the procedure the OP was recreating? The procedure was as clean and neat as possible given the circumstances. I believe both people had the snake's best interests in mind.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Wouldn't that also attribute to why so many snakes are burned if their owners use heat rocks? I always wondered why...when a snake felt itself burning, it would just stay on the rock.
The lack of pain receptors on the ventral side makes sense.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

n/p
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Hmmm.

Well Michael, I don't think anyone here would negate the importance of utilizing a good reptile vet. If you have ever read any of my other posts...you would know that I strongly encourage seeking the advice of a good vet. We all do.

Pitoon is a responsible and experienced keeper. He made a judgement call.
A vet would have to make a judgement call as well. Perhaps the situation was above what anyone could have done.

I do not know if Pitoon even has access to a good vet in his area.
Perhaps taking the snake to a vet is the first suggestion that should have been brought up. But I can guarantee that Pitoon knew this was an option before he ever posted about the problem here.

Taking a snake to just any old vet...might be just as harrowing for the snake and more so for the keeper.
The poor snake would certainly have died without any intervention.
A judgement call was made.
No one here suggested that he should not utilize sterile procedure etc.
I was not in England to see the situation. Neither were you.
The owner of the animal did his best in the situation. Knowing even a little about the keeper and his sense of responsibility toward his animals...I am left feeling confident that Pitoon did the best he could in the given situation.
So for the benefit of anyone else who happens to read this thread...
I will say:
It is always best to seek the advice and care of a qualified reptile vet prior to attempting anything that you are inexperienced in handling.
If you are do not have access to a qualified vet, in some situations, you may have to make a personal judgement call. Seek the advice of people who might have experience. Perhaps even call a qualified vet (if possible) and ask his or her advice.

Michael, perhaps you could have offered the original poster some advice beforehand?
Perhaps you read the thread too late? I understand your post. And you also meant well. We all live and learn.
Either way...all we can offer now is a little sympathy.

Harlin,
Thanks! I’m sure you understand and you’ve been in similar situations. The Vet just email me back today and said he would do the surgery for free, however he was pretty sure it wouldn’t make it.

Losing any animal is bad, but working years to produce this animal (spider 100% het hypo) is what really gets me. Out of a 7 egg clutch I’m now down to 1 spider het hypo and 5 normal het hypo. And losing some important clutches earlier this year, just adds fuel to the fire. Not a great season, but still grateful for what I have.

To bad we’re separated by the big pond. It would be nice to meet up at a show for some snake talk…..been to CO once “Denver” running at the “Mile High” is tough for a person from Miami.

***And for everyone else, thank you for the kind words. I wish everyone else the best!

Pitoon

>>Hmmm.
>>
>>Well Michael, I don't think anyone here would negate the importance of utilizing a good reptile vet. If you have ever read any of my other posts...you would know that I strongly encourage seeking the advice of a good vet. We all do.
>>
>>Pitoon is a responsible and experienced keeper. He made a judgement call.
>>A vet would have to make a judgement call as well. Perhaps the situation was above what anyone could have done.
>>
>>I do not know if Pitoon even has access to a good vet in his area.
>>Perhaps taking the snake to a vet is the first suggestion that should have been brought up. But I can guarantee that Pitoon knew this was an option before he ever posted about the problem here.
>>
>>Taking a snake to just any old vet...might be just as harrowing for the snake and more so for the keeper.
>>The poor snake would certainly have died without any intervention.
>>A judgement call was made.
>>No one here suggested that he should not utilize sterile procedure etc.
>>I was not in England to see the situation. Neither were you.
>>The owner of the animal did his best in the situation. Knowing even a little about the keeper and his sense of responsibility toward his animals...I am left feeling confident that Pitoon did the best he could in the given situation.
>>So for the benefit of anyone else who happens to read this thread...
>>I will say:
>>It is always best to seek the advice and care of a qualified reptile vet prior to attempting anything that you are inexperienced in handling.
>>If you are do not have access to a qualified vet, in some situations, you may have to make a personal judgement call. Seek the advice of people who might have experience. Perhaps even call a qualified vet (if possible) and ask his or her advice.
>>
>>Michael, perhaps you could have offered the original poster some advice beforehand?
>>Perhaps you read the thread too late? I understand your post. And you also meant well. We all live and learn.
>>Either way...all we can offer now is a little sympathy.
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Hey Pitoon,

You are right, the elevation in Colorado can kill a flat-lander.

I had visited your website and I knew you were in Italy. I meant to say Europe in my previous post....but somehow I ended up putting you in England?!?!?

Anyway, I hope you have enjoyed the imaginary vacation to Great Britain. lol.

Take care bud. We will have to catch up sometime.
Your friend,

Harlin

Michael,
Please don't assume that i scurried to correct this issue myself. The very first thing i did was call a very well known Vet here in Italy 2hrs away from me in Bologna. His first words were can you push the heart back into the cavity. I also asked about surgery, and his response was that being a hatchling it may not make it, from either one or the other or both...i.e anesthesia and/or surgery.

The main problem is that there was no cavity to push the heart back into. You can clearly see it in the pictures. Unlike Baily's incident where the hatchling looks like it has more of a laceration, my hatchling was born with it's heart outside it's body plain and simple.

Lesson learned....all i can say is that this episode has given me that much more experience/knowledge.

Pitoon

>>Ever think of taking it to a vet?? Cardiovascular surgery without anesthesia, analgesia, or aseptic technique?? Poor snake.
>>
>>
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>>Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.
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First of all, I would like to tell Pittoon that he made a great effort in trying to save that snake. I am glad that someone was able to remember my website with the story about Grace there. As Harlin has stated, you win some, you lose some. I actually had a Hypo female hatch the same way last year. The hernia in her was larger, and proved to be a bit more difficult to close. I got her closed up, and looking good, but she was not able to survive the night. So, while I saved one, I lost one as well. But, at least I know that I try whenever possible, and Pittoon did the same. So, my hat's off to you.

In regards to trying to bring it to a vet, that was the first thing I tried, as it written in my story, and the vet declined to do anything for the animal. They also would not SELL me a suture kit, to attempt it myself. So I did the next best thing I could think of, and it payed off.
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Tim and Monica Bailey
Bailey & Bailey Reptiles

Tim,
Thanks! I remember reading that page years ago, but had completely forgotten about it until seeing the pictures again. Grace’s hernia was a bit different from my hatchling. It looked as if she had the cavity for the heart itself to fit back into. In my case there was no space at all for the heart to go back into.

The vet did get back with me today and offered to do the surgery for free for me. I just had to make the trip (2hr drive) and pay for the anesthesia. I’m not a Vet nor claiming to be one but I’m quite gifted with my hands and I did what I could do. But I really think there was no other choice but to put it down. Not to mention the heart was abnormal, being about twice the size of Grace’s…which I assume to be normal.

Like you said you win some......you lose some.

Pitoon

>>First of all, I would like to tell Pittoon that he made a great effort in trying to save that snake. I am glad that someone was able to remember my website with the story about Grace there. As Harlin has stated, you win some, you lose some. I actually had a Hypo female hatch the same way last year. The hernia in her was larger, and proved to be a bit more difficult to close. I got her closed up, and looking good, but she was not able to survive the night. So, while I saved one, I lost one as well. But, at least I know that I try whenever possible, and Pittoon did the same. So, my hat's off to you.
>>
>>In regards to trying to bring it to a vet, that was the first thing I tried, as it written in my story, and the vet declined to do anything for the animal. They also would not SELL me a suture kit, to attempt it myself. So I did the next best thing I could think of, and it payed off.
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>>Tim and Monica Bailey
>>Bailey & Bailey Reptiles
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I've been fairly lucky so far with only one hatchling that needed to be put down(,it was mad kinked!/,and i think it was a condensation issue.)..Thanks for posting this.It gives us all forethought about such a scenario should it occur in our own incubator..(Specifically,that there has to be a cavity to try to correct it.)

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Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

Isn't it amazing how often you will be successful when confronted with something like this and you just "try something"...some idea that comes into your brain from other experiences that have worked in the past. So often it works and the animal survives. So wonderful when it does work...thanks for trying!

Sorry for your loss, but you did the best you could. When you saw the outcome...the ONLY thing you could was what you did.

Good luck with future clutches.

I know I am a little late in commenting, but I have to anyway. It's quite easy to be a vet that has went to school and learned the ins and outs of animals and have experience doing so. When you know very little of the situation though it would be great if you didn't let those little sausages touch a key on your keyboard before you start jumbling out some duechebag spill to make pitoon feel worse about a great attempt at saving a life. Most of the time in the USA you can't find a vet that specialiazes in reptiles unless you live in a big city. So pitoon, great effort on your attempt. I applaud you on it. I don't what I would have done if it would have been me. Sorry for your loss and hope you have a super season. Happy 4th of July.

Vets suck… they don’t know what their doing… they killed my reptile…

For some reason there is a negative connotation for veterinarians on many boards. Some think that they know more and can do things themselves better than a vet. Others go to the vet and then start a thread where everyone chimes in on how the vet is wrong. I read this kind of stuff all the time on boards. While many may be doing what they feel is the best thing it doesn’t mean that mistakes aren’t made and things aren’t done incorrectly. The road to hell is paved with good intentions…

In addition to this there is a huge amount of mis-information presented all the time as fact. I usually read this stuff an ignore it cause for some reason no matter how I try to educate people based on my education and experience, I’m the bad guy because I’m the vet and I disagree with what people have learned on the net.

I am a veterinarian. Not the kind that you bring your dog and cat to down the street, I’m a surgeon. When regular vets have cases they don’t feel comfortable doing surgery on they send them to me. That’s all I do. I have done a lot of surgery on reptiles and other exotics. I have also done research involving reptiles specifically in the area of surgery and anesthesia. I also keep and breed reptiles. I have ball pythons, RTBs, and GTPs. I do this as a hobby like everyone else and I read these forums to gain information and share ideas.

Occasionally I come across posts, like this one, that are disturbing to me. I don’t know everything and I'm not claiming to. That is why I read forums like everyone else. There are some things that I do know a lot about. I would like to clarify some things in this thread and then everyone is free to bash what I say like usual…
It is my opinion based on my experience as a vet, a surgeon, and reptile breeder that attempting surgery (especially this type) without anesthesia, analgesia, or training was not fair to this animal. Ectopia cordis is not something that can be corrected on a kitchen table with dental floss no matter how “clean and neat” it was. It is typical when organs develop in abnormal places, extensive reconstructive surgery is needed to put them back where they belong.
Secondly it is my opinion that the method of euthanasia was not appropriate. The American Veterinary Medical Association panel on euthanasia does not consider conventional freezing as an acceptable way to euthanize reptiles. The development of ice crystals in the tissues likely causes pain prior to death. When freezing is used it should only be done after heavy sedation or anesthesia.
I am sorry that nobody that could provide adequate services was available that lead the original poster to attempt something so complicated. There is no doubt in my mind he was doing what he thought was best, but in the end it’s the snake that could have had a better chance under better circumstances.

"Furthermore, there is significant evidence from both research and veterinary care that snakes have little or no pain receptors on their ventral side. Which is why researchers implant PIT tags at the edge of the ventral scales, less stress to the animal so it can be released immediately"

I would like to see this evidence because I believe your statement is incorrect. There is no doubt that snakes have pain receptors on their ventrum. I have given injections for anesthesia and they react. EVERY time. They react in the same way as when an IM injection is given. They react because the obviously feel it and are trying to avoid a painful stimulus. The selection of the surgical exposure away from the ventrum has nothing to do with pain receptors.

In snakes celiotomy is best performed at the lateral margin of the body where the scutes and scales are in apposition. When the incision is closed it will not interfere with the flat conformation of the ventral scutes. The lateral apporach is also easier to keep clean because it is not in direct contact with the substrate or ground. Finally snakes have a large vein running directly on the ventral midline that is avoided by using a lateral approach.

“Wouldn't that also attribute to why so many snakes are burned if their owners use heat rocks? I always wondered why...when a snake felt itself burning, it would just stay on the rock. The lack of pain receptors on the ventral side makes sense”

There is no good answer why reptiles will stay on or under a heat source that is burning them, but it is not related to distribution of pain receptors. When they do have burns they are certainly sensitive during treatment so they do feel it. I have also seen burns all over the place form improper heat sources. On the ventrum from heat rocks, on the dorsum from light bulbs that were to hot, and on the sides after a reptile coiled around a light bulb that was exposed in the enclosure. There are theories such as lacking a withdrawl reflex (this happens when you touch a hot stove and pull back before you even realize you touched it), differences in pain and heat receptors, lack of reasoning (unable to associate burning with being on or near a heat source). Bottom line is until they start talking and tell someone why they do what they do there will never be a definitive answer.

A few last comments…
If someone that I didn’t know came and asked me for a suture kit or any surgical instruments there is NO WAY I would sell it to them. In the litigious society we live the risk of getting sued or reported to the licensing board is too high. If I sell someone a suture kit and they use it for something other that what they claim guess who gets in trouble…

“it would be great if you didn't let those little sausages touch a key on your keyboard before you start jumbling out some duechebag spill”

Sorry but I am free to express my opinions and post whatever and whenever I want.
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Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

One of the best posts I have ever seen on here. Thanks for what you do.
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You might be a ball python fanatic if you subconsciously convert the price of virtually everything in to units of piebald ball pythons