Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,

I am fairly new to w. hognose morphs and am wondering if someone can explain a couple morphs for me......

First, what is the deal with the toffee-belly hognose?

How about the "Jungle" ?

Thanks,
Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

The toffee belly seems to be a form of T positive albino and most of them have some sort of paradoxing going on in the form of random black scales. This trait is inherited through simple recessive genetics.

The Jungle was originally produced by Richard Evans and the genetics have not been proven quite yet. Myself and a few others are working on proving its genetics and we should know within a couple years. I am betting on simple recessive.

-Jon
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Ultimate Hognose

Jon got it on the Toffee. I thin Hypos, Carmel Albinos and Toffees are all a type of T+ albino trait. I'm planning to breed my male hypo to a female het toffee just to see if anything happens.

I have a morph that could be considered a type of Jungle (some consider the definition of "Jungle" to be an aberrant pattern) that has shown to be a dominant type of trait. The below female is the most extreme aberrant one I have but I have others that show varying degrees of it also.

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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Thanks guys. So no one has tried crossing a toffee with a 'normal' hypo? Personally I do not think they will be compatible but am interested to find out.

Cheers,
Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

>>Thanks guys. So no one has tried crossing a toffee with a 'normal' hypo?

Not that I know of.

I'm planning to breed my Hypo male to a het Toffee female just to see what happens. I'm thinking they're not compatible and are like the "Carmel" and "Ultramel" or the "Banana" and "Coral Glow" ball pythons, look similar but are not compatible.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Do you guys realize there are 6 different albino strains in Hogs??? That has got to be the most in any reptile species so far...

What are the six?

'Albino'
Hypo
Toffeebelly

??

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

There's also the pastel pink albino...that makes it 4...the other 2 I don't know?

- Reg Albino
- Carmel Albino
- Toffeebelly
- Pink Pastel
- Hypo

- Lavender to some may be considered a form of albino.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Greg, are you in Tucson?
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

>>Greg, are you in Tucson?
>>-----
>>Chris & Alliey
>>www.bloodyleopard.com
>>E-mail Us
>>

I'm in GA.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Ok, the phone number must be Google then.
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

>>Ok, the phone number must be Google then.
>>-----
>>Chris & Alliey
>>www.bloodyleopard.com
>>E-mail Us
>>

Magicjack. It's a vanity number. Only area code I could get.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Isn't 'red albino' a two trait morph? 'Red' and 'Albino' combined? So the albino is the same as the 'normal' albino?

Doesn't 'Carmel Albino' = hypo (T albino)?

WARNING: I am not a hognose morph expert.....

Cheers,
Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

The "everyday" albinos such as they yellow, orange,and red albinos are T Negative albinos. The "red" or "extreme red" albinos are merely line traits that make the "everyday" albinos appear red. So a red albino is only showing one recessive trait, the t negative albino trait. Line traits like "red" "blonde" or "green" are not passed on in a dominant or recessive way but in more of a random way when related or simalarly colored animals are paired.

Pink Pastel Albinos are different in that the pink coloration is genetically passed on through a recessive gene. you can have a het pink pastel albino but not a het red albino since "red" is not recessively inherited. if that makes sense... Pink Pastel Albinos are T Negatives.

Lavenders, "hypos", and Carmel albinos (which are different from hypos and look a lot like toffees) all seem to be T Positive albinos as they have ruby eyes instead of bright pink and they do show darker pigments that T Negatives can not. everything about these three morphs is recessively inheritable meaning that there can be "hets" for each of these three morphs.

Lastly, Toffeebellies also seem to be T Positives given the non-bright pink eyes, the dark pigments, and the "toffee" bellies They differ from the other T Positive Hognose in that they can have paradoxing. This means that although they are T Positives, in some parts of their dorsal and ventral sides "normal" hognose coloration shows through. They appear as black flecking on the T Positive animal.

Hope that made some sense...
Maybe someone can post 6 pics of the 6 different types of "albinos"

fine description and explain.
only one sidenote...all Toffee Bellys have those black spots. But sometimes they are hard to find
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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Hey Chris,
Here are the albino strains...

1- Regular T- Albino
2- Hypo= T Albino (first of the T albinos)
3- Carmel Albino= T unrelated to the other T lines
4- Toffeebelly= T line originated in Germany with paradoxing
5- Pink Pastel= T- albino
6- Lavender= T- albino (most likely)

As of right now, these are all separate albino strains that are incompatible with eachother...

Good topic guys!
I think many are beginning to wonder if different morphs of hogs(Pattern or color mutation) that are similar are actually allelic.
Unless I am mistaken, many similar morphs in ball pythons have proven to be allelic or match up on the same DNA strand???, (please help me with this Gregg).
Though not familiar with many morphs, I think the cinnamon & black pastel ball pythons are compatible though they may have come from different areas.
Same true of the Mojave, Russo het, phantom, butter, and lesser, which can all be crossed to make BLE leucistics.
I recently heard that the two lines of caramel BPs are compatible as well.

Many lines may however be not be compatible like the albino black rat lines that when crossed offered double hets.

We are working with a potentially compatible line now and should have results out in a few months.
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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes

www.spiderhognose.com

http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/index.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Cool. Thanks all!

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

>>Good topic guys!
>>I think many are beginning to wonder if different morphs of hogs(Pattern or color mutation) that are similar are actually allelic.
>>Unless I am mistaken, many similar morphs in ball pythons have proven to be allelic or match up on the same DNA strand???, (please help me with this Gregg).
>>Though not familiar with many morphs, I think the cinnamon & black pastel ball pythons are compatible though they may have come from different areas.
>> Same true of the Mojave, Russo het, phantom, butter, and lesser, which can all be crossed to make BLE leucistics.
>>I recently heard that the two lines of caramel BPs are compatible as well.

Not sure if I'm the right Greg but I'll help out.

The black pastel and cinnamon are compatible and make a blacker super than the others combined. They are basically the same snakes but one makes a brown snake as a super and the other is more of a black color.

The 2 caramel ball morphs are not compatible.

Everything can make Blue eyed lucys and Black eyed lucys it seems. Depending on what combo you combine depends on how white the snakes is and what color markings it will have.

I think most 4 gene combos in the ball world will mostly make a solid colored snake with a small amount of pattern.

I think the caramel albino and hypo hognose stand more of a chance of being the same than do the toffee.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

With simple recessives I have not seen any compatibility when combining similar morphs... You mostly see it in "codominant" or incomplete dominant traits... You can say that the Mojaves, Russo hets, phantoms, butters, and lessers are all het for blue eyed leucistic, but in my opinion, calling them heterozygous is just dumbing down a more complex situation... In my opinion, they would be more of a codominant or incomplete dominant because of the fact they show what some call "het markers"... You can also call the animals, "visual hets"...

For instance, when you breed a Mojave to a normal, you will get 50% normal and 50% Mojave... You can clearly see the difference between the normals and the mojaves... You breed 2 mojaves together and it creates a white snake with blue eyes...

The same can be said for the Anaconda hogs... Breed a conda to a normal and you get a 50/50 split of condas and normals... Breed those condas together and you get a super conda...

So in short, it is instances like this where I have seem compaibility and not in actual simple recessives... If a simple recessive line is compatible with another similar one, chances are it is really the same line... Thats how I see it...

Gregg,

Good descriptions. Until breeding trials are done with the different albino morphs there is no real way to prove if they are the same are not.

My main question is if the 2 anery lines are compatible. I've been told it should have been proven true or not this year. Time will tell.

I have both BHB and New York line anerys so if nothing else I'll figure it out myself next year hopefully.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs | Boa Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

hi guys thought ide drop a quick line.
i have due to hatch on the 12th 14 eggs from toffee X het evans hypo.
then i bred one of my het carmel males to one pos het toffee and one pos hypo. those are due to hatch around the begining of next month.
ive also bred my ny line double het to bhb het anery.
i dont have eggs yet but...well find out soon.

thanks
joe schmidt

All albino strains can be seen on my website. Click on the western morph link in the photos link.

-Jon
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Ultimate Hognose