Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm having trouble figuring out for sure what happens if you breed two spiders together.

I've read three different theories but don't know which is true?

I've heard it's a fatal combo when an egg gets two spider genes, although not sure what that means. Would that mean that particular egg would not develop and be a slug?

I've heard you'd get a higher percentage of spiders with a spider x spider breeding but they'd all just be normal spiders.

I've heard the babies who got two spider genes would develop and look like any other spider and would throw all spider babies when bred.

I figure all 3 of these can't be true but have no idea which one is the right one? Does anyone know for sure?

I need to know if it's worth doing a Honey Bee x Spider ph Ghost breeding to try to prove out whether the Spider is het Ghost or not, or if there would be negative consequences to that breeding.

Thanks in advance!

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Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 het Caramel Albino (Edward & Bella)
0.1 poss het Caramel Albino (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel Albino (Bellatrix)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Princess Buttercup)
0.1 Pastel Orange Ghost (Nagini)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost (Nick)
0.1 Spider poss het Butterscotch Ghost(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojave (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
0.1 Blond Pastel (Katie)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.0.9 Eggs in the incubator (Edward x Bella)
0.0.3 Eggs in the incubator (Jasper x Esme)

Corns
1.1 het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Bloodred (Romeo & Juliet)
1.0 Blizzard het Bloodred poss het Anery Lav (Tumnus)
0.1 Granite (Ravenclaw)
0.1 Fire het Anery (Ginny)
0.1 Anery Lav (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma (Victoria)
0.1 Opal (Jewel)
0.0.23 Eggs in the incubator (Romeo x Juliet)
0.0.18 Eggs in the incubator (Tumnus x Lucy)

Hogs
1.0 Albino Western (Hogwarts)
0.1 het Albino Western (Hufflepuff)
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

Two of those theories are found in genetics.

First, the Spider gene could be fatal when homozygous. Normally we assume the Spiders we see are heterozygous (Ss), so the snakes only have one copy of the Spider gene. Two Spiders bred together would theoretically produce some eggs that die in incubation when they receive two copies of the gene. IE, are homozygous (SS).

Second, the Spider gene could simply be dominant. Therefore, heterozygous and homozygous Spiders would look the same. Once and a while someone may come across a Spider the produces all babies with at least one copy of the Spider gene (depending on what it was bred to).

No one, to my knowledge, has sat down to analyze their hatch records for Spider to Spider pairings that result in fewer than the expected number eggs, which would support the First theory. Nor has anyone checked to see if they have a Spider that produces only babies with the Spider gene, supporting the Second theory.

I would say your Honey Bee X Spider het Ghost pairing should be fine. Either you will have a few less eggs hatch than you would expect, or you will have all at least Spiders in your clutch (if you have a homozygous Spider). So go for it!
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

There’s a lot of talk about the spider x spider mating…..with no one actually providing any real data to prove this “lethal homo” or not.

From what I know BHB has produced a pinstripe homo that looks like a normal pinstripe…..that when bred produced constant entire clutches of pins over several clutches. So homo versions of dominates do exist.

As for the naming convention for the Punnett Square the abbreviation should look like this….

SS = normal

Ss = het spider (normal everyday spider you see around)

ss = homo spider (which in “theory” should look like a normal looking spider)

Do the breeding and let us know the outcome.

Pitoon

>>I'm having trouble figuring out for sure what happens if you breed two spiders together.
>>
>>I've read three different theories but don't know which is true?
>>
>>I've heard it's a fatal combo when an egg gets two spider genes, although not sure what that means. Would that mean that particular egg would not develop and be a slug?
>>
>>I've heard you'd get a higher percentage of spiders with a spider x spider breeding but they'd all just be normal spiders.
>>
>>I've heard the babies who got two spider genes would develop and look like any other spider and would throw all spider babies when bred.
>>
>>I figure all 3 of these can't be true but have no idea which one is the right one? Does anyone know for sure?
>>
>>I need to know if it's worth doing a Honey Bee x Spider ph Ghost breeding to try to prove out whether the Spider is het Ghost or not, or if there would be negative consequences to that breeding.
>>
>>Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Have you been hugged by your snake today?
>>
>>Ball Pythons
>>1.1 het Caramel Albino (Edward & Bella)
>>0.1 poss het Caramel Albino (Rosalie)
>>0.1 Caramel Albino (Bellatrix)
>>0.1 High Contrast Albino (Princess Buttercup)
>>0.1 Pastel Orange Ghost (Nagini)
>>1.0 Butterscotch Ghost (Nick)
>>0.1 Spider poss het Butterscotch Ghost(Nymphadora)
>>1.1 Mojave (Lucius & Renesme)
>>0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
>>0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
>>1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
>>0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
>>0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
>>0.1 Blond Pastel (Katie)
>>1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
>>0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
>>0.0.9 Eggs in the incubator (Edward x Bella)
>>0.0.3 Eggs in the incubator (Jasper x Esme)
>>
>>Corns
>>1.1 het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Bloodred (Romeo & Juliet)
>>1.0 Blizzard het Bloodred poss het Anery Lav (Tumnus)
>>0.1 Granite (Ravenclaw)
>>0.1 Fire het Anery (Ginny)
>>0.1 Anery Lav (Lucy)
>>0.1 Plasma (Victoria)
>>0.1 Opal (Jewel)
>>0.0.23 Eggs in the incubator (Romeo x Juliet)
>>0.0.18 Eggs in the incubator (Tumnus x Lucy)
>>
>>Hogs
>>1.0 Albino Western (Hogwarts)
>>0.1 het Albino Western (Hufflepuff)
>>0.1 Tri Color (Molly)
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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

In the case of Spider versus Normal alleles we know Spider is either dominant or codominant to Normal. So the capital letter would indicate a Spider allele and a lower case letter would indicate the Normal allele.

If the gene was co/dominant, the punnet square abbreviations would look like this instead:

SS = Hom. Spider (Super or Fatal Spider if codominant)
Ss = Het. Spider (Regular Spider we often see)
ss = Normal
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

the Punnett Square does not change.....it is what it is.

Capital letter "S" = dominant trait

Lowercase letter "s" = recessive trait

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Pitoon

>>In the case of Spider versus Normal alleles we know Spider is either dominant or codominant to Normal. So the capital letter would indicate a Spider allele and a lower case letter would indicate the Normal allele.
>>
>>If the gene was co/dominant, the punnet square abbreviations would look like this instead:
>>
>>SS = Hom. Spider (Super or Fatal Spider if codominant)
>>Ss = Het. Spider (Regular Spider we often see)
>>ss = Normal
>>-----
>>Lincoln, NE
>>0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
>>2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband
-----
Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

I was just trying to make the distinction because if the OP doesn't understand how the capital/lower case letters are used to represent different alleles, his punnet square will get very confusing. Particularly since he is working with a co/dominant trait and a simple recessive.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

i understand that you are trying to help, "BUT" if you don't provide correct information to the the OP they will never learn how to correctly use the Punnett Square.

reversing the idea of how to correctly label alleles will only cause more confusing.

imagine a teacher telling you that 1 1=0...... then to only learn later than 1 1=2.......it doesn't make any sense.

Pitoon

>>I was just trying to make the distinction because if the OP doesn't understand how the capital/lower case letters are used to represent different alleles, his punnet square will get very confusing. Particularly since he is working with a co/dominant trait and a simple recessive.
>>-----
>>Lincoln, NE
>>0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
>>2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband
-----
Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

Technically capitals are used to represent dominate traits and lower case letters for simple recessive traits...and in my opinion spiders are dominate genes, just like normal wild type genetics but overrides the normal alleles when paired with normal alleles...but a 'SS' result offspring doesn't look any different than a 'SN' (with N being normal). I expect the only real difference between a SS animal and a SN animal, is it will produce all spider babies, if bred to a normal or a 'het' spider (SN).
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PHLdyPayne

I bred a bumble bee to a spider last year and ended up with 3 bees out of a 5 egg clutch. None of the bees had a head wobble even though both parents had it. I saw no ill effects by breeding this pair together. I didn't even know there was perceived issue until someone responded to a video that I had on YouTube showing one of the bees. I guese what I didn't know didn't hurt me.

Here is the video I mentioned.

I hope everyone is having a great season.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

There was a breeder in Florida a few years back with a spider (from a spider X spider het pied pair) that had produced 5 clutches over two years that were all spiders. He called it his super spider. I'm having trouble remembering a name, but it wasn't one of the well known breeders (I have a much better memory for ball pythons than I do for people).

Rumor has it that Kevin at NERD has a super spider...hence all his amazing bees and things with spider genes. Haha.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

That is encouraging, thank you all. On the genetics thing I'm good there. So no worries about confusing me with the squares. I learned them many years ago when I first got into corns, and have a solid handle on the whole co-dom, dom, recessive stuff with balls. My new Honey Bee male will be here next Wednesday. Can't wait. I think I'll name him Aragog in keeping with my Harry Potter theme. I'm mainly getting him to pair with my POG female, but am glad I can also use him to try to prove out my Spider female who is 66% possible het Ghost. Got worried when I read about the whole "fatal combo" thing but sounds like other people are doing the cross without having disastrous results.

-----
Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 het Caramel Albino (Edward & Bella)
0.1 poss het Caramel Albino (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel Albino (Bellatrix)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Princess Buttercup)
0.1 Pastel Orange Ghost (Nagini)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost (Nick)
0.1 Spider poss het Butterscotch Ghost(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojave (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
0.1 Blond Pastel (Katie)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.0.9 Eggs in the incubator (Edward x Bella)
0.0.3 Eggs in the incubator (Jasper x Esme)

Corns
1.1 het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Bloodred (Romeo & Juliet)
1.0 Blizzard het Bloodred poss het Anery Lav (Tumnus)
0.1 Granite (Ravenclaw)
0.1 Fire het Anery (Ginny)
0.1 Anery Lav (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma (Victoria)
0.1 Opal (Jewel)
0.0.23 Eggs in the incubator (Romeo x Juliet)
0.0.18 Eggs in the incubator (Tumnus x Lucy)

Hogs
1.0 Albino Western (Hogwarts)
0.1 het Albino Western (Hufflepuff)
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

I like the HP theme

You have a nice looking snake there I am sure it will produce great babies, no matter who it is paired up with.

Just wanted to mention something though, just in case you didn't already plan it. Don't forget to quarantine your new male, even if from a reputable breeder. ALways best to be cautious than risk exposing your healthy animals to something unexpected. (sometimes animals can carry disease that are dormant for a long time, till they get stressed, so even a well established breeder could pick up something in a new animal that just never showed symptoms (rare, but it can happen..and shipping stress/new home stress can be just the thing to bring it out). That and always good to treat for external parasites, even if none are visible on the animal.
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PHLdyPayne