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More photos of theT PLUS eastern milk

asnakelovinbabe Jul 02, 2010 01:28 AM

This morning when I got up, the little squiggle was attempting to eat the smallest f/t pinky i had... which I left in her bin overnight. She got halfway and became intimidated by the size and spit it out. I went out today and picked up some REALLY tiny pinkies, only a few hours old... smaller than anything I had here! Since I saw her eating (well, attempting to eat) I am very confident she is not going to be a problem. I took some photos of her today in the natural lighting... much better results!

Replies (83)

Sunherp Jul 02, 2010 10:28 AM

Very cool stuff! As I said in a reply to your post on FHF, I agree that the animal looks like what we suspect are Tyrosinase-positive amelanistic animals. Excellent find, and keep us posted on any developments in the story. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions/issues with the animal.

-Cole

asnakelovinbabe Jul 02, 2010 11:38 AM

Dont worry! I will not hesitate! I set her up in a little tub... newspaper pellet, very low to the ground and tight hiding place... and I put a silk plant in there to give her lots of cover and make her feel secure.

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 02:32 PM

.I never used the newspaper pellet stuff and I know you all use it on garters....don't know how dry it totally is....I would really recommend a moist hide with damp moss in it for the eastern......trust me/us.......
-----
.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 02:52 PM

That looks nearly exactly like an ultramel cornsnake hatchling....


-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 02:59 PM

>>That looks nearly exactly like an ultramel cornsnake hatchling....

In fact, IMHO it looks **exactly** like an ultramel cornsnake...
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 07:06 PM

I hatch 100 ultramels a year sometimes and none looked like that .....really.....

and I found an aztec ultramel corn baby --flat on the road last year right between the yellow lines ...about 2 doors up the street.....

wonder how it got out there?.....
-----
.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 07:09 PM

>>I hatch 100 ultramels a year sometimes and none looked like that .....really.....

None looked like the photo I posted? That's funny, since that pic came from SMR....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 07:20 PM

didn't see your pic

Don's pic not needed...and his look more red than mine...hhmmm...

...I have alot...sell them for cheap cheap....ultramel lavs ...noone wants them....

got rid of alot of adult corns this last show...took what....like 27 $ each for them....HA!

....my ultramels....from origional line....long ago.....been bred here for a long time.....

....why am I still here.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
-----
.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 07:24 PM

>>didn't see your pic
>>
>>Don's pic not needed...and his look more red than mine...hhmmm...

Now just compare Don's pic with the OP's pic, and tell me which diagnostic characteristics you would use to tell the two of them apart. IN THE PHOTOS -- not in your hand.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 01:13 AM

"Doc", get out of your cubicle and get into the field. When you SEE so many milks they are second nature, you dont have to explain to simple googlers how to ID a snake. At this point you should be apologizing to the poor OP. She is someone that is WANTED in the forum. Someone positive, someone enthusiastic, with energy to make things good. You, I have been trying to scare you off for a while now! I get PMs egging me on about the stupid person playing themselves like some expert. I was an expert witness in Federal cases IDing species when I was in HIGH SCHOOL. Its not about anything except for your lack of knowledge.....

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 01:29 AM

Phhhhht, Jeff. The "appeal to authority" (in this case, you) is a very well known logical fallacy. Give me facts over self-professed "authority" any day.

And nope, sorry to disappoint ya, but I've got nothing to apologize for. Asking questions is not a sin.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 09:34 PM

>>That looks nearly exactly like an ultramel cornsnake hatchling....

Sorry, my normal web server seems to be down at the moment. Here's the pic of the ultramel corn again:

-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 03:01 PM

Is there a checkered pattern on the belly?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 03:13 PM

Nevermind, I forgot that milks have the checkerboard too....hmm...this hatchling doesn't have the "V" or "Y" at the back of the head, the neck markings also look the same as the neck markings on the ultramel corn...
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Sunherp Jul 02, 2010 03:27 PM

Both Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum and Pantherophis guttatus guttatus can have the 'Y' or 'V' as a nuchal marking, but it's highly variable in both taxa.

-Cole

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 03:45 PM

Anybody up for counting scales? And anybody got the scale count for corns?

Eastern milk:

Scalation:
Dorsal: 21
Ventral: 182 - 214
Sub-caudal: 35 - 54
lnfralabial: 7 - 11
Supralabial: 7 - 8
Analplate: Single
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jeff Schofield Jul 02, 2010 06:16 PM

SLB(sorry had SNB before)is NOT a new keeper. Her work and enthusiasm with waters and garters the last few years hasnt gone unnoticed by those of us that frequent more than 1 forum. She knows what she is talking about and has given you AMAZING close up pics that a NA milkhead can easily distinguish. Detail you wont find in a field guide, you know just by looking because you have seen it a million times in the field! Even Joe M's albino was questioned seriously on his first post because of the pic detail...but not after. There are better ways to welcome a new friend into the forum than posting multiple times INCORRECTLY on her intial subject! I'm as subtle as a dumptruck but I want to go out chasing girls with you Doc, you will make me look GOOD!

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:25 PM

>>SLB(sorry had SNB before)is NOT a new keeper.

So what?

>>She knows what she is talking about and has given you AMAZING close up pics that a NA milkhead can easily distinguish.

So educate me, Jeff. Exactly WHICH details separate this snake from corns?

>>I'm as subtle as a dumptruck but I want to go out chasing girls with you Doc, you will make me look GOOD!

Sorry hon, I don't chase girls. I are one.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 06:49 PM

......it is a milk.....eastern......

Y and v head marks....even colorings....look at corns,great plain kings,mole kings,easterns, some red lines maybe?I have to look........all have v 's and y 's....

....."I is one"

.........LMFFAO..................
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.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:52 PM

>>......it is a milk.....eastern......

Why?? Which specific characteristics make it a milk instead of a corn?? I'll be very happy to learn.

>>....."I is one"

That was "I ARE one", thankyouverymuch.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 06:56 PM

my mistake...I thunked the past in me head wrong....LOL...

sounded better as redneck IS ....

......HAAAAAAAAA
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......JY

DMong Jul 03, 2010 12:51 AM

"Sorry hon, I don't chase girls. I are one"

That is too funny!

See, I knew that a LONG time ago, but I think Jeff was so darn busy being nasty, that he never picked-up on it all this time..LMAO!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 12:55 AM

Doug, not nasty, but RIGHT. This one simply wont let stuff go...and just because I think about cruisin girls with someone doesnt mean they ARENT one either! In fact the best ones do it WITH me! I'd show you pics but........I cause enough trouble! LMAO

dekaybrown Jul 04, 2010 02:27 AM

Before I read any further, I have hatched and keep Triangulums, Not to mention Shannon knows her snakes... That is not a corn.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Dances With Reptiles

2.1.0 Thamnophis Infernalis- California Red Sided Garter Snakes
1.1.0 Flame X Erythristic Eastern Garter Snakes
2.0.0 Melanistic Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis
1.0.0 Kansas Albino Red Sided Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Golden / Albino cross
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Anerythristic morph
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - axanthic morph
2.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Iowa Snow
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow/Nebraska Albino double Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.1.0 Thamnophis similis "true blue" This gal bites!
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern"Mutt"
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
0.0.0 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake (died)
0.0.1 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbon Snake
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Eastern Garter baby
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
1.0.0 Florida Black racer - fiesty yet way cool.
1.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snakes Pink eaters!
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" adult CB (pet store sale)
1.0.1. Pueblan Milk snakes "Oreo" adult & a '09 baby CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Getting Huge!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal"
0.1.0 Oscar (Astronotus ocellatus) - "Peach" (A Monitor with fins)
1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment
1.5.0 Storeria dekayi - Brown Snakes Casper, Xena, Athena, Copper, Sharon & others
1.1.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo, Diamond b/w cockapoo

Sunherp Jul 02, 2010 03:20 PM

that the belly of Shannon's animal is checkered, since Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum generally have such a ventral pattern. Morphology and scale counts say, "Lampropeltis", not "Pantherophis." Checking the anal plate would be the final answer.

-Cole

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 03:25 PM

>>that the belly of Shannon's animal is checkered, since Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum generally have such a ventral pattern. Morphology and scale counts say, "Lampropeltis", not "Pantherophis." Checking the anal plate would be the final answer.
>>
>>-Cole

Yeah, I already posted my retraction about the belly checkers. But what is it about this hatchling's morphology and scale count that says Lampropeltis to you? I found a scalation count for milks, but I can't find one right now for corns. Educate me!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jeff Schofield Jul 02, 2010 06:24 PM

Lampropeltis=shiny scales. Next look at band depth(if you know about easterns)and "type", using such knowledge most milkheads can/should be able to guestimate(within a county or 2)any milk in the country. Its a subtle skill, refined over years in the field and keeping specimens. Body shape, rat snake "loaf of bread" is pretty obvious. For newcomers you might have to look at the anal plate. She isnt one of those and neither are the others that have followed up. Put down the Hondos and back away from the snack bar!

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:30 PM

>>Lampropeltis=shiny scales. Next look at band depth(if you know about easterns)and "type", using such knowledge most milkheads can/should be able to guestimate(within a county or 2)any milk in the country. Its a subtle skill, refined over years in the field and keeping specimens. Body shape, rat snake "loaf of bread" is pretty obvious. For newcomers you might have to look at the anal plate. She isnt one of those and neither are the others that have followed up. Put down the Hondos and back away from the snack bar!

Tsk, Jeff. Throwing around vague terms like "type" won't get you anywhere with a real scientist -- or with me.

Let's talk specifics. What about the band depth is diagnostic? What characteristics go into your assessment of "type"? Cmon, stop trying to baffle me with bullsh*t and try showing us all what you actually know, instead.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 06:55 PM

LOL....again....wow.....when I was in second grade I knew the difference between a milk and a corn...and we actually had one of each in the same tank in my classroom at school....BIG school...like 20 kids maybe ? in my second grade....I know there was 16 in my 6th grade class.....(my district has K thru 6 then 7 thru 12 NO middle school....we are never in the middle)...

anyways......just look at it.....

when field hunting...you flip a pile...there's a snake....you have time to think, red touch yellow? scalation count? anal plate?....etc etc....Nope...just grab it.....think later....you got half a second to figure out what it is and react and grab....or it's all mute point....

,,,,this forum really talks some dumb smack in here.....

........need....ball....pics......>>>>......

later.....

.....
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.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:59 PM

>>LOL....again....wow.....when I was in second grade I knew the difference between a milk and a corn...

Well heck, it's not terribly difficult to tell the difference between normal morphs of one and the other in most cases, especially when you have them right there in front of you. HOWEVER, telling the difference between **mutations** of one and the other, especially through photos, is an entirely different question.

So -- which diagnostic characteristics shall we use to distinguish this snake from a corn?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 07:04 PM

we use smell and hormones to distinguish the differences between milks and corns...

musk...

see...corns smell like rotting green peppers....when provoked...

and eastern milks smell like Jeff Schoffield's ass when provoked...

really...it's in William's book on page 237....

we all have books and can find facts...and you have Google, Bing,ASK etc etc etc...you want info...it's there...and stupid 12 year old can come in here and know it all....trust me...it happens...they come online and know it all...ask stupid stuff one day and a week later they are telling people they know it all....etc etc......people even pretend to be doctors and stuff on here.....I know of a few ....some were ....some never were....

....Google away........hint...

split
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.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 07:08 PM

>>we use smell and hormones to distinguish the differences between milks and corns...

Right.....in a photo.......LOL!!

>>people even pretend to be doctors and stuff on here.....I know of a few ....some were ....some never were....

LOL!!

Email me privately, and I'll be happy to tell you which school I went to and the year I graduated. You can easily confirm my degree through the registrar's office....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 07:16 PM

really...took one stuarti to a doc one time...stuck ovum...I said...I want it cut out...he pushed it out...I knew not to do that...I tried...he did it and she died that night from shock....visit, and baytril....for what?...for him to kill it....saw a commercial the other week actually on TV with him...what a joke...he still thinks he knows snakes and all...

anyways...I go to a vet and tell them what I want by the bottle....

....I also knew a few "biologists" and Bio teachers in the past...some know all kinds of stuff and are really smart...some make me laugh and want to puke...they know nothing....

you have to want ,,,no....just BE an animal person....from birth I was.....I don't need to know facts it just happens....really....all kinds of stuff has to stick in your head....stupid little things......not book stuff.....

I wanted to be a vet...I should have......10 years was a long thought when I was 18...and hated school as it was...

where were we?....oh....your papers.....

wheeeee.......don't matter....

notice this....Shannon Brown,Jeff Hardwick, and all the other "BoYZ" of milkheadom.....never come into these stupid threads at all....they know better than to even bother......it is just a few people bored and willing to talk smack that come in here and waste their minutes of their lives....

I wasted enougn Hon....

...

.....Jeffrey Yohe....

.
.
.
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.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 07:22 PM

>>I don't need to know facts

ROFLMAO!!

I think that's part of the problem in this thread. Too many participants who "know" stuff without actually knowing the facts...

Speaking of facts -- if the OP genuinely lives outside of the corn's native range, then that takes care of a large part of the uncertainty. And if she does come back with a photo of an undivided anal plate, that'll answer the rest of it. None of this silly drama or posturing required!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 12:52 AM

Ya, but if you were not just a simpleton Hondo maker thinking they knew stuff about milks....when they DIDNT.....she wouldnt have to bother because she knows the educated stand behind her. How did I know where she lived? Did I ask her? Nope, I studied the really detailed pic and cross referenced against ALOT of other milks. And you.......[bleep]ed...........about......something .....you simply dont have any idea about....AGAIN.

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 01:32 AM

Jeez, Jeff, you are SUCH a drama queen.... LOL!

You're absolutely correct about one thing -- specifically, that I don't know much about milk taxonomy. THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING QUESTIONS. If you'd get over your theatrics and just ANSWER a few questions, you'd have a lot fewer of my posts to whine about.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 01:53 AM

I have forgotten more about milk taxonomy than you or most will know. I have been dealing with these snakes on a daily basis for decades. I need to explain to some newby why its a milk? No. YOU have to learn to know something before you open your trap. Go get WIlliams' book and KNOW it. Drama? Only in the fact that you have a degree...not encouraging to the rest of us. Notice how many come to your defense even from my salvos?? None.

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 02:07 AM

>>I have forgotten more about milk taxonomy than you or most will know.

Yes, yes, Jeff, we all know that you are the End All And Be All of herp wisdom. Really, we do. I promise. Even those nasty old poisonous slugs realize that You Are The Herp God.

>>I need to explain to some newby why its a milk? No.

Of course you don't "need" to. You have every right to ignore my questions altogether.

>>Drama? Only in the fact that you have a degree...not encouraging to the rest of us.

Oddly enough, my degree isn't in herp taxonomy.

>>Notice how many come to your defense even from my salvos?? None.

Since when do I need defending? I don't need any help dealing with the likes of you, thanks.

And now, I'm off to the barn. Gotta do a last bit of late-night critter care out there, and then feed those stupid old hondos in here, before I get to bed!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jdavis179 Jul 06, 2010 11:13 PM

Schofield!!!! Dont ever invite your ex-wife onto the forums again! You guys battle out these issues through lawyers like everyone else does man! Though...i must admit you guys do have a certain chemistry..maybe it's time to take the old girl back. Then you guys could discuss the tragic genetics that led to your "tiny milk snake" problem. "Monster Milks" you wish! i really do wish you two the best of luck. To everyone else, Schofields a good guy who's really trying guys so cut him a brake he is just misunderstood.

J.Davis
"The Herpers marriage counselor"
snake species kept:
1.1 of everything you wish you had!!!

amazondoc Jul 06, 2010 11:48 PM

:-P !
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.
.

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jeff Schofield Jul 07, 2010 01:07 PM

Davis, its just like you to show up 3 days later and complain about cold hot dogs! Waiting for you to say something relavent to a subject instead of busting my balls considering we havent even had an interesting discussion yet. Easy on the personal stuff unless you are following my "streaking" post, that I brought on myself! LMAO

JDAVIS179 Jul 07, 2010 04:43 PM

Schofield, i apologise for your feelings, however the forums are a tough place man...you really gotta be on your game and a little thicker skinned you know. i've checked out some of your posts and pics, your doing good bro just maybe take the time to think things through (not on everything just sometimes)before you pull the trigger you know? Hey i dont have all the answers but i can tell you it gets easier.

Your forum friend;
J.Davis
"i come in peace, and leave you smarter, YOUR WELCOME"

dekaybrown Jul 04, 2010 02:31 AM

Location, location, location..... No corns where Shannon libves.

Give it a rest.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Dances With Reptiles

2.1.0 Thamnophis Infernalis- California Red Sided Garter Snakes
1.1.0 Flame X Erythristic Eastern Garter Snakes
2.0.0 Melanistic Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis
1.0.0 Kansas Albino Red Sided Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Golden / Albino cross
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Anerythristic morph
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - axanthic morph
2.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Iowa Snow
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow/Nebraska Albino double Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.1.0 Thamnophis similis "true blue" This gal bites!
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern"Mutt"
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
0.0.0 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake (died)
0.0.1 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbon Snake
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Eastern Garter baby
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
1.0.0 Florida Black racer - fiesty yet way cool.
1.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snakes Pink eaters!
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" adult CB (pet store sale)
1.0.1. Pueblan Milk snakes "Oreo" adult & a '09 baby CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Getting Huge!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal"
0.1.0 Oscar (Astronotus ocellatus) - "Peach" (A Monitor with fins)
1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment
1.5.0 Storeria dekayi - Brown Snakes Casper, Xena, Athena, Copper, Sharon & others
1.1.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo, Diamond b/w cockapoo

asnakelovinbabe Jul 02, 2010 04:43 PM

I cant believe how many people seem to think this is a cornsnake. It is clearly a milksnake. If you see it in person, you can clearly see that it's a milk. How would an ultramel corn get into my backyard? We dont have corns here, at all... I have never owned one and my area is rural. my neighbors dislike snakes and would not own one. I will take a photo of the anal plate I guess. Even the smoothness of the scales are entirely different than a cornsnake. They are extra shiny.

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 04:48 PM

>>I cant believe how many people seem to think this is a cornsnake.

It's obvious that they think it's a cornsnake because it LOOKS like a cornsnake. Even milks of "normal" types can look like corns, and this mutation looks just about exactly like the known ultramel morph in corns.

>>It is clearly a milksnake.

Why?? What specifically makes it "clearly" a milk? Which morphological features? I'm very happy to learn more about such things, but simply saying "clearly" is not a convincing argument to me.

>>How would an ultramel corn get into my backyard?

The same way an eastern milk mutation would get into your yard -- by being born there, or slithering in.

>>We dont have corns here, at all...

Since I don't know where you are located, I obviously can't judge this point. Where are you?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jeff Schofield Jul 02, 2010 05:54 PM

SNB, please dont take his word for anything and NEVER tell him where you live! He doesnt speak for the rest of us at all, he keeps HONDURANS, need I say more?? LMAO! That is a milk all day long and twice on tuesdays! Excellent pics, with MY pis I can see him saying crap...but those arent my pics. As I stated in my first follow to you, this forum gets a little venomous because you have alot of people that THINK they know what they are talking about. Guys like this made me stop keeping my multi morph yellow rats! You and I know where the snake is from,lol. There is no reason for anyone else to know.

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:16 PM

Thanks for your input, Jeff, but as I've told you before I'm not a "guy" of any sort.

And btw -- these forums are intended in large part for education. Education, in turn, requires the sharing of ACCURATE information. That snake may be a milk, or it may not be -- but there is absolutely nothing wrong about looking at the pics with a critical eye. If there are obvious morphological characteristics which prove that it's a milk, let's hear them. I'll be very happy to be educated. If the OP gets that photo of the anal plate, I'll be very happy to see that as well. True scientists want to see the facts and the details before they jump to conclusions, ya know....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jeff Schofield Jul 02, 2010 06:32 PM

Look, just because you cant ID a snake, dont take it out on the rest of us.

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:35 PM

>>Look, just because you cant ID a snake, dont take it out on the rest of us.

ROFL!!

In other words, you don't actually know the required details yourself. LOL!!

I freely admit that I can't ID that snake with any certainty. That's why I'm asking questions, for heaven's sake. Maybe admitting to ignorance is a skill you still need to learn, but I have no trouble with it myself.

So, Jeff -- what characteristics are diagnostic in separating the OP's snake from a corn? Let's hear them!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:19 PM

And btw --

I don't want to know the OP's street address, for heaven's sake. I just want to know whether she is in the cornsnake's native range or not. So -- state would be good, and depending on the state perhaps which part of the state. Try not to be so paranoid.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jeff Schofield Jul 02, 2010 06:46 PM

If the snake looked normal color, with black, what would the locality be?? SOME of us milkheads can ID a NA milk to within a small range.....others need more help. There are many "guess the locality" tests on the forum....Exactly how many of them have YOU won?? My point exactly. Learn how milksnake pattern varies throughout the country and come back when you're done. Please.

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 06:49 PM

>>If the snake looked normal color, with black, what would the locality be?? SOME of us milkheads can ID a NA milk to within a small range.....others need more help. There are many "guess the locality" tests on the forum....Exactly how many of them have YOU won?? My point exactly. Learn how milksnake pattern varies throughout the country and come back when you're done. Please.

LOL again. Still demonstrating that you don't know the diagnostic details yourself.....

I don't care what the "locality" is, Jeff. Right now I care whether the OP lives within the native range of corns. If she lives in Michigan, for instance, then the snake is very very unlikely to be a corn. But if she lives in TN, then we're back to needing more details.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 06:59 PM

NO...she does not live with corns in her yard.....

........
-----
.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 07:01 PM

>>NO...she does not live with corns in her yard.....

I don't "live with corns in my yard" either, but I am at the edge of their native range.

Do you actually know where the OP lives?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

JYohe Jul 02, 2010 07:05 PM

yes I do know....thank you very much....
-----
.......
.......
......JY

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 07:14 PM

>>yes I do know....thank you very much....

And she is definitely outside of the cornsnake native range?

How hard would it be for someone to just say "yes, she lives outside of the native range for cornsnakes"?

None of this drama and cloak-and-dagger BS are really necessary, you know. Simple answers for simple questions are all that's needed.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 01:21 AM

Why cant you accept that there are ALOT of people on here that know ALOT more than you?? I mean, we have constantly demonstrated such. Why cant YOU ID a milksnake on the milksnake forum?? The beginner snake forum is a few clicks up the dial. No NEED to publish locality, pattern differentiation is enough for most of us. If it isnt for you, aknowledge such, and ask for tuteledge. Or you can go to the archaives and study all the pics and figure it out yourself. Jeez, I hate stupid people.

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 01:39 AM

>>Why cant you accept that there are ALOT of people on here that know ALOT more than you??

Jeff, why in the world do you think I'd be asking questions if I did NOT recognize that there are people here who know more than me?? Hmmmm???

TRY to get over these silly dramatics. All you need to do is actually answer my questions, and you won't have any more of my posts to whine about in this thread. In fact, really, the OP **has** answered all the questions that can be answered for now. Specifically: 1. she's in PA, where corns are very unlikely to be found; 2. in person, her snake shows very smooth unkeeled scales; and 3. in a few days, she'll get a photo of the anal plate to see whether it is divided or not.

Those three bits of data are all that were needed. Your repeated moaning and whining about how terrible I'm supposed to be for asking questions is just childish self-indulgence on your part.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 02:01 AM

Those 3 things were not needed by anyone but YOU. Most of us could SEE that it was a milk based on pattern and scalation, sorry you couldnt. Before this happens again, PLEASE study the archaives, get to know MILKSNAKES, and come across as knowing NOTHING before you think you know something....maybe people may be more forthcoming of knowledge without ridiculing you and making you look really, really dumb....

peters Jul 03, 2010 02:10 AM

This has gotten rediculouse - give up and go to bed! Good night.
theOLDherper
Pete

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 02:11 AM

>>Those 3 things were not needed by anyone but YOU. Most of us could SEE that it was a milk based on pattern and scalation, sorry you couldnt.

Right, Jeff. Just like that breeder who could "see" that his wonderful new piebald snake was a corn -- until people started asking questions. It was a very beautiful snake, but despite all his supposed herp knowledge and experience it weren't no corn....

Sometimes the emperor has no clothes. Sometimes he has a lovely suit. It's never a bad idea to ask questions, whether that emperor turns out in the end to be clothed or not.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 02:20 AM

Dont believe everything you read on the internet....Derrr

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 03:34 AM

>>Dont believe everything you read on the internet....Derrr

(Okay, back from the barn -- waiting for the dogs to finish eating and for the mice to thaw --)

Hey, you got something right. Congratulations!

Most certainly you should NOT believe everything you read on the internet. When in doubt, ask questions! I'm glad we could finally agree on something!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Joe_M Jul 02, 2010 07:30 PM

Amazondoc...PLEASE step away from the computer!!!
-----
Joe

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 08:37 PM

>>Amazondoc...PLEASE step away from the computer!!!
>>-----
>>Joe

Jeez, Joe, what IS it with all these hysterical reactions to simple questions?

Joe -- what are the diagnostic characteristics you would use to differentiate the OP's snake from the snake I posted?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Joe_M Jul 02, 2010 07:54 PM

Nice shots!

Here's a headshot comparison of your albino and my T- albino for the naysayers.



-----
Joe

amazondoc Jul 02, 2010 09:14 PM

What are the diagnostic characteristics that sseparate these two snakes, Joe?


-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

asnakelovinbabe Jul 02, 2010 10:41 PM

they have an entirely different head shape??? A corn has a much more pointy snout and also, they have a much more defined neck area, whereas lampropeltis tend to have a stubby little head with hardly any defining neck region. Can't you see the tiny stubby nose on my milk? And how she looks like a head attached to a body without much of a neck? The other characteristics that separate this animal from a corn are its SCALES. They are extremely smoother and shiny, like GLASS. Like a kingsnake... like a milksnake, and NOT like a cornsnake. Yet another... are its extremely neat saddles? They are hexagonal in shape, they are very wide and narrow and flat and they are very close together. I have only seen saddles like that on corns that have been line bred for that look. Yet another characteristic is the side pattern, the little bars and markings on the lower sides under the saddles. I mean... just look at them... they are very different from a corn's sidebars/spots. Her belly is checkered, but it's kind of mottled and the checkering is not very crisp. She is also much shorter in length that a hatchling corn. Like I said before, she is stubby. Like kings and milks tend to be... not that long and lanky look like a corn would have. Hell I REALLY wish I still bred corns like I did a few years ago... I would have an amel baby here and I could show you them side by side. Finding a picture that looks like my snake in the same position is not a very good comparison. Also... I would appreciate it if you did not use my photos and if anyone else does want to use my photos shoot me a message first is all that I ask! There are certain things that as a herper you don't learn by reading books. You learn them by getting out there and flipping stuff over and finding snakes. You learn subtle little details that you cant really put into words. You just see them, and you just know! I don't need a freaking scientist or any amount of books to know what I am looking at in my home state of PENNSYLVANIA. Where we DO NOT have corn snakes. Sorry, but I don't have any book or anything with scale counts... so you'll have to do without! I am pretty sure if it was a cornsnake... SOMEONE out of all the people with extreme knowledge of NA colubrids would have noticed. I have been reassured by some very great hobbyists that they agree without a doubt it is a milk. The only people who are calling it a cornsnake are the noobs. No offense. But it does kinda make ya look like a noob! I don't meant to come off like a royal beeotch, but I tell it like it is and I don't care about other people's feelings when it comes to snakes. I felt as if my integrity was being attacked... but I am pretty confident I know a milk when I see one, even if it is albino and resembles an ultramel corn.

A photo of the anal plate will now not come for a few days. I refuse to bother her, as while I was away at work today SHE ATE A PINKY!!!! The last thing I need is to disturb her and to stress her into regurgitation. She is extremely wiggly and aggressive when handled. She has a lot of fight in her!

Also, I love how over the years on the forum... people have just taken to calling me SLB... it's so funny! haha

Regius71 Jul 02, 2010 11:29 PM

Milk snake/Corn snake???????? Actually who cares........ The fact is that is one nice looking snake and we all wish we would have been the one to find it. So keep the pics comming!!!!

Just someone tell me what kind of camera you all are using to take these beautiful pics.

asnakelovinbabe Jul 02, 2010 11:55 PM

haha, thanks! i use a panasonic lumix DMC fz18!

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 12:19 AM

>>they have an entirely different head shape??? A corn has a much more pointy snout and also, they have a much more defined neck area, whereas lampropeltis tend to have a stubby little head with hardly any defining neck region.

Did you LOOK at the two head shots I posted?

Here's just the heads again, comparing your snake to an ultramel corn:

There's nothing especially pointy about the corn head I posted, nor especially defined about the neck.

>>The other characteristics that separate this animal from a corn are its SCALES. They are extremely smoother and shiny, like GLASS.

This is something that's hard to see in many pics. For instance, do the scales in this pic look smooth or keeled?:

>>Like a kingsnake... like a milksnake, and NOT like a cornsnake. Yet another... are its extremely neat saddles?

Hmmmm, this is a new one for me. Thanks for the education!

Does one of these look significantly more regular in the saddles than the other?

>>Yet another characteristic is the side pattern, the little bars and markings on the lower sides under the saddles.

Like this?

>>I don't need a freaking scientist or any amount of books to know what I am looking at in my home state of PENNSYLVANIA.

Ah, thanks! See how simple it is to simply answer a question, instead of folks throwing all the drama and hysteria around? According to the All Taxa Biodiversity Inventory there is a population of corns on the southern border of PA, but your location does make it much much less likely that your snake would be a corn. Thanks for that info!

>>But it does kinda make ya look like a noob!

Oh hey, no problem. I'm not a newbie to keeping snakes, but I am most definitely no expert on herp taxonomy. That's why I ask questions -- in order to learn.

You know, just recently a professional herp breeder claimed that he had found a pied corn snake in the wild. Thanks in part to the questioning of folks looking at photos of that snake, it was soon proven that the snake was actually a garter -- not a corn at all. So even the pros get fooled. It pays to ask questions!

>>A photo of the anal plate will now not come for a few days. I refuse to bother her, as while I was away at work today SHE ATE A PINKY!!!! The last thing I need is to disturb her and to stress her into regurgitation.

Perfectly understandable. I hope to see that photo after she's had a chance to digest!

-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 02:11 AM

Man, that first shot you can easily see that the corns eye socket sticks out of the skull. In every comparison shot you can see the brighter sheen on the milk. And to me the most damning thing about your comical farce is that you MIS-IDed a snake in your OWN STATE!! If you found this in your back yard maybe I could buy it from you for $25?? If there is something worse than someone pretending to be smart its actually being too stupid for words doing it....."professional snake breeder" on the garter thing?? PLEASE, open a donation file and we will start donating dollars for your further ball python collection. You can baffle some of those forum people I'm sure!

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 02:20 AM

>>Man, that first shot you can easily see that the corns eye socket sticks out of the skull.

Ahhhh, finally an actual morph difference! And it only took hours and hours of you whining and b*tching before you managed to come up with it! Congratulations!

>>In every comparison shot you can see the brighter sheen on the milk.

Perceived "sheen" can easily be an artifact of lighting. Not a reliable characteristic for ID.

>>And to me the most damning thing about your comical farce is that you MIS-IDed a snake in your OWN STATE!!

I haven't ID'd anything at all except for the ultramel corn pic I posted.

As for eastern milks -- I not only have them in my own state, I have them on my own property. That doesn't mean that I have intimate knowledge of their meristics, however.

>>If you found this in your back yard maybe I could buy it from you for $25??

Not in my backyard, sorry. Unless state laws have changed recently, it's illegal to collect natives here without an education license.

>>"professional snake breeder" on the garter thing??

Yup, "professional snake breeder". In fact that professional snake breeder posted his pied garter for sale over on FaunaClassifieds, just about a month ago. He originally tried to sell it as a pied corn, of course -- until nasty evil people like me dared to ask questions.

And NOW I'm off to the barn!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 03, 2010 02:43 AM

Chris Rock is on. He told me I cant win an arguement with a woman because I am trying to make sense.....

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 03:37 AM

>>Chris Rock is on. He told me I cant win an arguement with a woman because I am trying to make sense.....

Reminds me of a quip on the Cartalk show --

If a man is standing alone in the forest and he says something, is he still wrong?


-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jeff schofield Jul 04, 2010 12:09 PM

Jack Nicholson, a personal favorite of mine with his arm candy at Laker games. In this movie a groupie comes up to him and asks "how do you write women so well?". To which he quickly answers "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability!". Touche.

amazondoc Jul 04, 2010 12:26 PM

What does it mean when a man is in your bed gasping for breath and calling your name?

You didn't hold the pillow down long enough.

-----

How can you tell when a man is well hung?

When you can just barely slip your finger between his neck and the noose.

-----

How many men does it take to screw in a light bulb?

ONE......He just holds it up there and waits for the world to revolve around him.

-----

What did God say after creating man?

I can do so much better.

-----

What should you give a man who has everything?

A woman to show him how to work it.

-----

Why did God create man before woman?

Because you're always supposed to have a rough draft before creating your masterpiece.

-----


-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

asnakelovinbabe Jul 03, 2010 07:49 AM

okay I literally have like, a minute before I have to go into work but I just want to say... back up and actually LOOK at the saddles on those snakes. look at how much farther the corn's are apart. And then compare their shape. can you not see that? Next... look at their heads again. LOOK at the distance between the eyes and the tip of the snout. If you cannot see the difference, I cannot help you any further because you are unable to recognize subtle differences.

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 11:15 AM

>>okay I literally have like, a minute before I have to go into work but I just want to say... back up and actually LOOK at the saddles on those snakes. look at how much farther the corn's are apart. And then compare their shape. can you not see that? Next... look at their heads again. LOOK at the distance between the eyes and the tip of the snout. If you cannot see the difference, I cannot help you any further because you are unable to recognize subtle differences.

Again, thanks for your actual input. I appreciate it! I myself have a corn with very closely spaced saddles (pics on request), so I don't think that would be a really reliable diagnostic indicator -- but OTOH, it could very easily be a reasonable seat-of-the-pants sort of thing. It's not something I had thought of, in any case, so I appreciate the pointer.

As for head shape -- I agree that there is a distinct difference in ADULT head shapes, but we're not dealing with adults here. It's always dangerous, especially in photos, to depend on "subtle differences" -- since it is so easy to significantly alter the appearance of those subtle differences with positioning, camera angles, and lighting. That's one of the reasons why quantifiable characteristics like scale counts can become so important at times.

Thanks again for your input. I love to learn, especially when intriguing puzzles like the similarities between your snake and that ultramel corn present themselves!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

HondoAberrant Jul 03, 2010 07:12 PM

My only conclusion is that Jeff Schofield is an ass, nothing new there. The snake looks more like a milk to me, but I agree that it is VERY close to the pic of the ultra lav Corn posted earlier.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

amazondoc Jul 03, 2010 09:07 PM

>>My only conclusion is that Jeff Schofield is an ass, nothing new there.

There's plenty of data to reach that conclusion.

>>The snake looks more like a milk to me, but I agree that it is VERY close to the pic of the ultra lav Corn posted earlier.

Thanks Scott!

As I just posted in another thread, I'm sure there's at least a 99.99% chance that the snake in question is a milk. But I do find it very interesting that it appears so similar to the corn hatchling -- and I've found the helpful responses (as opposed to the not-so-helpful ones) to be very educational!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

dekaybrown Jul 04, 2010 02:39 AM

My hair is bleeding and my gums are receding from reading all of this Babble, burble, banter, Bicker, Brouhaha, balderdash & ballyhoo

Shannon, I love that Milk.

I'm glad you posted it on my forum where people can appreciate it without all the nonsense.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Dances With Reptiles

2.1.0 Thamnophis Infernalis- California Red Sided Garter Snakes
1.1.0 Flame X Erythristic Eastern Garter Snakes
2.0.0 Melanistic Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis
1.0.0 Kansas Albino Red Sided Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Golden / Albino cross
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Anerythristic morph
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - axanthic morph
2.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Iowa Snow
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow/Nebraska Albino double Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.1.0 Thamnophis similis "true blue" This gal bites!
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern"Mutt"
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
0.0.0 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake (died)
0.0.1 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbon Snake
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Eastern Garter baby
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
1.0.0 Florida Black racer - fiesty yet way cool.
1.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snakes Pink eaters!
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" adult CB (pet store sale)
1.0.1. Pueblan Milk snakes "Oreo" adult & a '09 baby CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Getting Huge!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal"
0.1.0 Oscar (Astronotus ocellatus) - "Peach" (A Monitor with fins)
1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment
1.5.0 Storeria dekayi - Brown Snakes Casper, Xena, Athena, Copper, Sharon & others
1.1.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo, Diamond b/w cockapoo

jeff schofield Jul 04, 2010 12:20 PM

My only conclusion is that someone didnt know what they were talking about because they are a deli cup expert. And then another someone who likes to sling mud couldnt help but join in, pig that he is. Maybe I can introduce you fine people, perhaps on the Ball python forum? You will like it there, location, location, location.....

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