Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Morphologically, milks have a short, rounded snout. Corns have a longer, squared snout. Milks have a cylindrical body and a thick, poorly defined neck. Corns have a "bread loaf" shaped body (cross section), with a slender, defined neck (comparatively). Milks have a comparatively short, thick tail (typical of a fossorial species), while that of corns is long and slender (typical of a semi-arboreal species).

Milks:
- 7-8 supralabials, with the third and fourth entering the orbit of the eye.
- anal plate single

Corns:
- 9 supralabials, with the fourth and fifth entering the ocular orbit.
- anal plate divided

Hope that helps. There are other differences, but these should suffice on the given animal.

Hey there --

Thanks for your post! This sort of input is very helpful. However, I think most of the characteristics you mentioned are a lot more reliable in **adult** animals, and more reliable for animals in the hand, than for the hatchling photos we have in front of us.

>>Morphologically, milks have a short, rounded snout. Corns have a longer, squared snout.

Hmmm. The OP claimed that corns have a pointy snout. Squared or pointy?

I don't think either nose looks especially pointy OR especially round here. OTOH, the distance between eye and nose-tip does seem to be a bit longer in the corn. Unfortunately, the appearance of such subtle differences can be significantly changed in pics with camera angles and lighting, so IMHO that isn't reliable in our situation.

>>Milks have a cylindrical body and a thick, poorly defined neck. Corns have a "bread loaf" shaped body (cross section), with a slender, defined neck (comparatively).

Do you really see much of a neck in the corn pic above?

And which of these bodies looks more loaf-y to you? Which looks more cylindrical? The pic on the LEFT is the milk, in this case.

>>Milks have a comparatively short, thick tail (typical of a fossorial species), while that of corns is long and slender (typical of a semi-arboreal species).

Ahhhh, here's another one I never thought of. Thanks for posting it!

OTOH -- can you tell where the tails start in these pics? Tail length might be a good indicator when you have a snake in hand so you can turn it over....but can you really tell here?

>>Milks:
>>- 7-8 supralabials, with the third and fourth entering the orbit of the eye.

Right. Unfortunately, I could only find 6 supralabials in the OP's snake. Where am I missing one? Is there perhaps one at the back that I'm not seeing?

>>- anal plate single

I think this one is gonna be the single most helpful, simple, and reliable indicator. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait for the pic!

Thanks again for your post. I do appreciate people who can offer good info without irrelevant drama!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

One of the other head pics turned out to be better for a scalation count -- but I can still only find 6 supralabials. Where am missing the last one or two?

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The last one is right behind #6. It's the scale that the eye-band ends in. Hope that helps.

Mitch

just as good as corns!

>>The last one is right behind #6. It's the scale that the eye-band ends in. Hope that helps.
>>
>>Mitch

Yeah, it's gotta be, but it's hard for me to see it. Probably that red stripe going through half of it is just confusing me.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here is your picture, but modified so you can see the seventh upper labial.

Up to this point I have stayed out of the discussion of whether or not it's a corn snake or a milk snake. There are several things I would like to point out regarding the discussion per this topic so far:

1. You have repeatedly stated that you are simply asking questions because you want to learn. This I can respect. However, how you are going about asking your questions, and in particular what you do with the information provided to you in other forum members responses, in a these than appreciative manner. This is not a direct insult to you, it's just an opinion I offer after watching this whole scenario unfold. By your own omission, yes you keep herps, yet you don't proclaim yourself to be an expert. Wonderful, you are indicating to everyone that you understand your knowledge with herps is limited. Because you lack the knowledge to self-identify the T+ albino found by the OP, you have repeatedly stated that is why you are asking multiple questions. Once again, I applaud your enthusiasm and thirst for knowledge. Where I find your behavior less than appealing is your repeated apparent purposeful opposition to information provided to you by forum members who are profoundly more knowledgeable than you regarding the proper identification of the said found milk snake. Now, granted, Jeff can come off pretty damn rude at times, he does make a simple point (if you read between the insults) - based upon his years of hands-on experience with milk snakes, the snake in question is undeniably a milk snake. You repeatedly ask for morphologically distinguishing characteristics that set the snake apart from a corn snake. Many of those characters (i.e., shorter and rounded snout, non-protruding eyes, thicker neck, short and stout body, evenly smooth scales, high number of evenly edged saddles, etc.) have been....

....provided to you, yet you still oppose even the most concrete evidence. Why ask questions if you continually shrug off information provided to you by people more knowledgeable than yourself concerning the topic at hand? This is not meant to be mean-spirited question, but simply one that should be taken for what it is. As a PhD student in the field of ecology and evolution I am regularly involved in the education of undergraduates. Honestly, if I had a student ask me the same question such as you have asked us here as many times as you have, and if that student were to repeatedly appear to shrug off my sought after knowledge, I would simply discontinue my attempts to educate that student. My decision to stop any effort to properly educate the student and answer their questions would not be based upon a lack of desire on my part, but instead because I would simply feel as though any answer I would give would not be adequate (even though my response would be based upon my years of experience surrounding the topic at hand). Sometimes there are "lost cause" instances, and sadly I find your handling of this topic to be one of those instances.

My PhD studies involve a massive breeding study with the California mountain kingsnake as my research species. I have worked with this species continually for over 1.5 decades (both professionally and as an avid hobbiest). I can, from hands-on experience alone, easily identify localities from all around the state just by sight. My ability to do so is based upon thousands of hours of working with this species. Within those thousands of hours I have found that many of the meristical (scale) information in print regarding the CA mtn king are profoundly incorrect. Furthermore, most of the information used to 'correctly' identify each subspecies of CA mtn king are fully interchangeable and useless. My work (which will be published within the next year) will demonstrate that the majority of characteristics used to....

...identify each subspecies is flawed. I have counted hundreds of thousands of scales and subjected myself to hundreds of hours of meristical work to show that the variation between subspecies is so great that meristical counts should simply not be used to differentiate populations of CA mtn kingsnake.

From my long-winded reasoning, what I am trying to say is that individuals such as Jeff, as rude as his responses can be, are responses given to you from decades of experience. Some of these responses might directly conflict with information you read in books; you must remember, anyone can write a book (regardless of how much or how little experience they have on the topic), but not everyone can give you an educated answer to your question regarding the species of the snake in question.

I have spent thousands of hours working with multiple species within the genus Lampropeltis, and I have dozens of corn snakes I am currently working with, and I can say without a doubt that the T albino found by the OP is 100% a milk snake. Now, you can continue to ask 'why' that is my answer, or you can sit back and realize that my answer is based 100% on my experiences with individuals within the genus. But most importantly, you need to realize that my answer is provided to you because you asked the question. What do I get out of all this by giving you the incorrect answer? Nothing. The snake is a gorgeous T albino eastern milk snake...enjoy it for what it is and be happy that you 'learned' how to distinguish a milk snake from a corn snake (because all that information has been provided to you in multiple doses). Hasta.

Mitch

Mitch, I figured to follow again here because your response was thorough and well put. I also have more than 2 decades of field and lab experience specifically with Eastern Milks, most people here know and aknowledge that. Thanks. I have had similar "contests" with "Doc" before, everyone that reads this followup knows. I was really trying to defend the OP to the best of my ability. You know from your experience with Mt Kings....one look and you can tell me where its from etc. THAT my friends cant be put in a book or fit into a 1-liner online, it takes many years and hundreds or thousands of specimens. And believe it or not I ENJOY being wrong, I enjoy the variation that milks continue to astound me with. Not often are there animals that dont "fit" a stereotype in our heads, that BIG Scarlet king from last month was one of them! Outlying populations, intergrations, not much new anymore. But being a NA milk ID expert(not self proclaimed), I say that not to brag but to let others use my knowledge to expand theirs. Subtle differences between ST Marys and Calvert county temps is lost in most CB circles. Not many have seen enough WC specimens to know the difference. I take offense, much as FR originally did to me, when people are self-proclaimed experts. Schooling simply cant substitute for field knowledge. As far as being a good teacher, I have more patience in dealing with someone who admits they dont know something and wants to learn as opposed to someone who questions just to make themselves look knowledgeable. Its a noticable difference most here would agree.
I will end in saying an arguement on a forum is NOT an arguement in real life. Its great to take a stand, choose a side and make an arguement. Alot can be learned doing this. IDing snakes is not one of them. I make light of alot of things here and in life, and I know it sometimes doesnt translate well. The older I get the less tolerance I have for idiocy, sorry. So to the lurkers that read but dont followup my posts, CHEERS. Know when there is big pest on the forum I will be the one picking up the fly swatter! Happy 4th!!

>>I take offense, much as FR originally did to me, when people are self-proclaimed experts.

ROFLMAO!!

You must find yourself quite offensive, then....

"I was an expert witness in Federal cases IDing species when I was in HIGH SCHOOL."

"I have forgotten more about milk taxonomy than you or most will know."

I could go on, but I hope you get the picture....

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

When I am ASKED to be a expert witness, that is not me saying that I am, that is the STATE saying I am. This is not the same as saying, here is a piece of paper you paid $100K for, go away. I aknowledge that the STATE made me an "expert witness", no self proclimation there "Doc". I really hope you can see the difference some day. You arent beautiful just beacause your mama thinks you are or because you slept at a Holiday Inn last night, that is called BIAS.

>>When I am ASKED to be a expert witness, that is not me saying that I am, that is the STATE saying I am.

LOL!!

No, Jeff. Your habit of prouding proclaiming your expertise here on the forums, every chance you get, is the self-proclamation.

A true expert doesn't have to loudly proclaim his own expertise. A true expert DEMONSTRATES his expertise by actually providing information.

btw -- How's it coming with those poisonous slugs, Jeff?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

About the same as your ID skills of things in your back yard. The difference is I actually have better things to do. One of my girlfriends is like this, having to have the last word no matter what.....LMAO

>>About the same as your ID skills of things in your back yard.

Hey, when I don't know something I readily admit to it. When you don't know something, you just declare it to be poisonous....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Damn you two, get a room! Just kidding...sorta! Haha.

Jeff - We've never spoken to one another nor interacted in an way; all I know of you is from what I read on these forums. Just to let you know, your response above was I think the most well-read and civil response I've ever seen you give! Haha. Please don't take offense, as I mean none, but dude, it's so NOT what I'm used to reading from you. Lastly, I'm hoping that sometime in the near future you might be able to take some new photos of your monster island milks that include full body shots. Head shots are fine, but I'd really appreciate the opportunity to see the full body in a single shot.

AmazonDoc - Thanks for taking my criticism so well, as like I stated in my original response, it was not meant for you to take as a personal attack. My only further advice to you would be this - any future endeavors of yours aimed at personal intellectual growth and enrichment, you might want to keep the tone of your questions and answers less snide. I realize that you might find Jeff's mindset 'frustrating', but any devolving on your part, regardless of who you're interacting with, is witnessed by everyone reading your response. As a professional I think you'd have to agree that it's important to maintain a certain level of professionalism, even if those you're interacting with you find are not maintaining their professionalism at a level you find acceptable. I only mention all of this because I think many of us found your tone snide and smart-aleky when you responded to Jeff, and because of that our opinion of you was lessened. Once again, this is simply my advice to you, which you are absolutely free to take or leave. Hasta.

Mitch

>>My only further advice to you would be this - any future endeavors of yours aimed at personal intellectual growth and enrichment, you might want to keep the tone of your questions and answers less snide. I realize that you might find Jeff's mindset 'frustrating', but any devolving on your part, regardless of who you're interacting with, is witnessed by everyone reading your response.

Self-improvement is a never-ending endeavor....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL...I love when Jeff uses that "I have forgotten more..." line. If you have forgotten that much, what good are you?? The trouble is, Jeff MAY actually know a thing or two, but by being a complete butt-head all the time, it negates anything he has ever posted.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

or this one

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

HAHAHHAAAA!..........

This is what Jeff's arm looks like from continuously patting himself on the back!

No wonder he can do it so well..LMAO!

.................for CHRISSAKES man!!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

But Doug its not bragging if someone asks me what my opinions are based on. Species ID is a skill that not everyone has a firm grasp on, many will admit this. My opinion is based on the stated experience, simple. Without responding like I did I couldnt properly answer the posters question.

you just said exactly what I was going to say... but i didnt feel like typing it all out. Thank you. I was going to say something to that effect, then changed my mind and decided I was simply going to stop responding and stop trying to prove myself, since I know, and everyone else seems to know it's a milk. I have realized that I do not need to prove myself to anyone... it has already been established that my animal does not need to be questioned.

Hey there Mitch --

Congrats on your PhD work. My own DVM work was, obviously, mostly a generalized study of veterinary medicine in several different species. My PhD work, on the other hand, was an interdisciplinary course which involved both lots of molecular genetics and also a lot of animal behavior. My doctoral research involved stress and behavior in Amazon parrots -- thus the user name ("Amazondoc" that I have used for years. None of that, unfortunately for the purposes of this discussion, involved detailed taxonomic studies.

There is an old saying, somewhere or other, to the effect that you only know for certain that a conclusion is true if you are dragged kicking and screaming to it, resisting all the way. IOW you must test all the assumptions and examine all the data points, not just blithely agree with what you have been told. As a researcher yourself, you should appreciate this necessity. And right now I am especially sensitized to this principle, given my recent experience with that supposed "piebald corn" that turned out to be a garter snake.

Speaking of that "piebald corn", here's exactly what the breeder said when he first posted a pic of the snake. And I quote: "I am convinced it is a corn. There were normal corns from the same area to match it with. The head on this one matches the other corns and the patches of “normal” look like corn pattern." Now, this guy has lots and lots of herp experience. He has been a curator of reptiles at both a nature center and a wild animal park, he's the president of a herp society, and he has bred herps for years. So -- should everyone have just shut up and believed what he said?

You say I am "unappreciative". I am not. If you'll go back and look at my posts, you'll see that I have thanked every person who has provided actual data beyond "it's a milk because I say so". But appreciating and thanking people does NOT require acceptance of everything they say, either.

One comes to true knowledge by testing the claims presented to you. If you don't want your claims to be tested, then by all means feel free to ignore any of my posts. Nobody is requiring you to answer any of them.

As for the specific snake involved -- yup, there's something like a 99.99% chance that the snake is a milk. But the discussion is about more than that specific snake's specific ID. It's also about things like learning ID techniques, appreciating how much this mutation resembles the known ultramel corn mutation, appreciating that hatchlings may be harder to tell apart than adults, appreciating the limitations of photographic IDs, and testing whether folks really know as much as they think they do. If you are not interested in any of these subjects, then once again please feel free to ignore my posts.

And thanks for the outline of the last supralabial. I am still a bit confused about it since it *appears* to be well beyond the caudal extent of the mouth, but I know that's got to be it. And, as I've mentioned before, it can be harder to see such things in a photo than with the live snake in front of you.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

quite frankly... I took one look at that snake and knew I was looking at a garter snake. Not all people are morons!!! yes... some people do not know a snake's mouth from it's vent... but some of us do!!! If you gave me a pure white version of every major type of snake here (garter snake, water snake, corn snake, king snake, etc...) I could easily ID them for you. Obviously, that guy is NO professional regardless of what he claimed to be. Your example is irrelevant because maybe the guy claimed to be some expert, but a REAL expert would never confuse a garter and a corn, even if they were both pure white.

>>Obviously, that guy is NO professional regardless of what he claimed to be.

Actually, "professionals" can be just as dumb as anybody else.

>>Your example is irrelevant because maybe the guy claimed to be some expert, but a REAL expert would never confuse a garter and a corn, even if they were both pure white.

Actually, it's quite relevant. And heck, even folks like Ben Siegel were offering to buy that snake as a piebald corn, even though they already had pics available to them. One often doesn't know who is a "real expert" and who is just blowing smoke when they make a claim -- but asking them challenging questions and paying attention to their responses will tell you a whole lot about them.

And please do remember -- my questions about your snake were NOT all about doubting your ID. As I said from the first, I myself couldn't tell whether it was a milk or not. In the beginning I asked simple questions about how to differentiate the two, both to be absolutely sure of the ID and also to educate myself. The whole discussion got more involved in large part just because one or two individuals chose to shovel manure instead of good info. I'm sorry they inflicted all that nonsense on your thread.

This whole thread could have been concluded very quickly with a few pieces of info. For instance: "yes, superficially these snakes look very similar. However, I live outside of the native range for corns. In addition, there are several characteristics which tend to make the milk look like a milk -- for instance, its very evenly distributed saddles, its narrow head, lack of obvious neck, and short nose, its cylindrical body and short tail, its smooth shiny scales, and so on. These characteristics may not always be diagnostic, and may be misleading or difficult to appreciate in photos -- but an examination of the anal plate will tell us for sure."

Et voila! No fuss, no muss, no drama. See how easy that could have been?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Obviously, that guy is NO professional regardless of what he claimed to be. Your example is irrelevant because maybe the guy claimed to be some expert, but a REAL expert would never confuse a garter and a corn, even if they were both pure white.

In defense of the guy who found (sort of) and brokered that garter -- he never personally "claimed to be" an expert (though many in this business respect him as such) and he would be the very first to admit that Colubrids are not his true area of interest or expertise. The poor guy's been near blind as a bat since a recent Western Diamondback envenomation a few months back -- a bite that warranted hospitalization and eye surgery -- so I'd be inclined to cut his visual diagnostic abilities some slack before dismissing him as some fly by night. He's been field herping, keeping and breeding since you and I were learning to crawl!
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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

I could cut him a *lot* of slack for just making a simple mistake, but not for making the bold claim that he did -- when his claim was obviously false. Remember, he said: "I am convinced it is a corn. There were normal corns from the same area to match it with. The head on this one matches the other corns and the patches of “normal” look like corn pattern."

He later admitted that he had NOT actually made a good examination of the snake before he made that first claim -- in which case, he should never have made the claim in the first place. Mistakes are one thing, but deliberately making false claims is quite another.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

......have a pic of this garter snake, so I can check out what all the hoopla was about?..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>......have a pic of this garter snake, so I can check out what all the hoopla was about?..LOL!

You can find one pic of the snake on FaunaClassifieds. Just go over there and type "piebald garter" into the search box.

There are more pics of the snake on the breeder's Facebook site.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

.....very cool looking garter for SURE!!, but to think it could every be mistaken for a cornsnake by these "experts" is absolutely hysterical!..LMAO!

I would have known in an instant that was a garter, and not a corn in around the second/third grade..LOL!

Ben Seigel must have had is freakin eyes closed

thanks for the great laugh!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That animal looks to be quite obviously a Thamnophis sirtalis to me, and given the dude's location, it's probably a T. sirtalis sirtalis. Beautiful animal, regardless.

-Cole

>>That animal looks to be quite obviously a Thamnophis sirtalis to me, and given the dude's location, it's probably a T. sirtalis sirtalis. Beautiful animal, regardless.
>>
>>-Cole

I agree Cole.

Did someone actually ID that snake found in Georgia/Alabama as a Corn? Hard to believe.
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Joe

>>Did someone actually ID that snake found in Georgia/Alabama as a Corn? Hard to believe.

The breeder himself did. That's the quote I posted a coupla times. And folks like Ben Siegel were trying to buy it, as a corn, even though a pic of it was already available. Unfortunately, the breeder deleted most of that conversation from his Facebook pages -- understandably, since it turned out to be so embarrassing for him! But you can still find some discussion of it on cornsnakes.com -- just search for "piebald garter".
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

AD,

Some of the "big" dealers apparently aren't as familiar with the animals themselves as they maybe ought to be... It's interesting. Perhaps they were just caught up in the fervor?

That animal, to my eye, is pretty obviously a Thamnophis, even if it was patternless and in black and white. The supraocular ridge (or "brow" over the eye, enlarged and graduated supralabials, distinctly (and heavily) keeled and elongated dorsal scales, etc. are screaming, "THAMNOPHIS!!!" Ha ha ha! Anyway, there is no way in Hell that anyone with more than a little experience could mistake that thing for anything in the tribe Lampropeltini. It's a Natricine through and through.

-Cole

>>Perhaps they were just caught up in the fervor?

I think that's exactly it. must-have-must-have-must-have, rather than whatintheheckamIbuying.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

" >>Perhaps they were just caught up in the fervor?

I think that's exactly it. must-have-must-have-must-have, rather than whatintheheckamIbuying"

Yeah, those potential buyer's were SOOO caught-up with seeing dollar signs, that they didn't even look at the animal underneath the cool "paint-job"..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Cole, those are EXACTLY my very same thoughts.

It's like being at a car show, and being next to a group of people pointing at a corvette, and saying wow!, look at that insane paint job on that killer Ford Pinto..LMAO!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's it!

-Cole

LOL!, yeah, it can be easily applied to the corn/garter botching story.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

They also have keeled scales(you may need a lens to see them)

and unlike milks,they eat

bigger clutches and bigger snakes.

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

"and unlike milks,they eat"

LMAO!!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>They also have keeled scales(you may need a lens to see them)

Right about that lens -- not strongly keeled. In fact, that's one of the things that made folks suspicious about that "piebald corn" that turned out to be a garter -- the scales appeared to be too strongly keeled for a corn.

>>and unlike milks,they eat

In fact, that's one of the things that made me wonder about the OP's snake. Her snake was willing to eat, and to do so immediately after capture. Didn't sound terribly milk-hatchling-like to me!

>>bigger clutches and bigger snakes.

Not bigger than my stupid old hondos.

Thanks for your post!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

actually eastern milks from PA tend to eat fairly well....I have had captive born, captive hatched ,2 yr old males and females, adult males and females...and almost all have eaten....the one female that gave the most trouble was just not eating due to it being time for brumation....later it then ate...even if it was for just 6 times,6 weeks that year....the male that the cops brought here this spring ate anything I gave it...(fuzz mice) and was released as soon as the weather permitted..

actually....I have more trouble with corn babies at times....lots of them are just set on not wanting to eat mice...and I refuse to use lizards on them.......

now...temporalis....that's another story.....(depending on locale actually)...

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......JY

Don't get to far off base here, even Elaphe guttata can be tough neonate feeders in some cases.
>>and unlike milks,they eat

In fact, that's one of the things that made me wonder about the OP's snake. Her snake was willing to eat, and to do so immediately after capture. Didn't sound terribly milk-hatchling-like to me!

While I believe Doug is half kidding around here w/ the North American milks not eating, I feel it needs to be stated that neonate milks will and do take food items soon after being hatched, and many times the day they hatch.
Wild caught animals from my experience more often then not take to lab mice readily in most cases.

-Dell

Or maybe some Xanax seems to be in order... Good night.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Dances With Reptiles

2.1.0 Thamnophis Infernalis- California Red Sided Garter Snakes
1.1.0 Flame X Erythristic Eastern Garter Snakes
2.0.0 Melanistic Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis
1.0.0 Kansas Albino Red Sided Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Golden / Albino cross
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis Anerythristic morph
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - axanthic morph
2.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Iowa Snow
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow/Nebraska Albino double Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.1.0 Thamnophis similis "true blue" This gal bites!
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern"Mutt"
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
0.0.0 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake (died)
0.0.1 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbon Snake
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Eastern Garter baby
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
1.0.0 Florida Black racer - fiesty yet way cool.
1.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snakes Pink eaters!
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" adult CB (pet store sale)
1.0.1. Pueblan Milk snakes "Oreo" adult & a '09 baby CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Getting Huge!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal"
0.1.0 Oscar (Astronotus ocellatus) - "Peach" (A Monitor with fins)
1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment
1.5.0 Storeria dekayi - Brown Snakes Casper, Xena, Athena, Copper, Sharon & others
1.1.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo, Diamond b/w cockapoo

To be very honest, I have had MANY "pain-in-the-arse" corn hatchlings in the past too!

Some of those little jerks can be as stubborn as mules, no matter what feeding tricks are applied..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com