Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What does the "F" in F-1, F-2, generations stand for?

Please.....NO GOOGLE cheating either!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>What does the "F" in F-1, F-2, generations stand for?
>>
>>Please.....NO GOOGLE cheating either!..LOL!

Filial.....
I didn't have to google it.....LOL

And to add to the discussion the F-1, F-2, etc are used for each generation.......Not only from a locality but even in hybridization projects.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

F1......

is F1 the wild collected , or their first litter?....

.....???..(I truly want to know your thoughts)....???
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.
........JY.......

>>F1......
>>
>>is F1 the wild collected , or their first litter?....
>>
>>.....???..(I truly want to know your thoughts)....???
>>-----
>>.
>>........JY.......

Genetics designating any of the generations following the parental generation. Abbrev.: F; F1 indicates the first filial generation, F2 the second, etc.
Bob

filial
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Filial...this is off the top of my head without Googling! LOL!

Any thoughts on what the offspring should be called from an F1 to F2 breeding? Also does it matter if the F2 is a female or a male? Jeff must be with his girlfriends so I'll ask the question here. By the way I knew the definition of the F cause you told me a while back, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Very good question!. And to be quite honest, I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that F-1 x F-2 back-crosses with hybrid animals are referred to as "F-2b" progeny though.

I don't know if this terminology still holds true to non-hybrid breedings though??

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Very good question!. And to be quite honest, I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that F-1 x F-2 back-crosses with hybrid animals are referred to as "F-2b" progeny though.
>>
>> I don't know if this terminology still holds true to non-hybrid breedings though??

To stay true with the definition of a filial generation....
If you breed an F3 to an F4 it will produce offspring that are at most 5 generations out of the wild.........F5, but I would certainly not call them that....i would call them F3 X F4s......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah It does get a bit confusious. In an F1 x F2 situation, I was thinking that if the F2 was a female then as you explained the offspring would be 3 generations from the WC. But if it were a male then the F1 is having the offspring and so would still be just 2 generations from the WC. Who's on first?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Yeah It does get a bit confusious. In an F1 x F2 situation, I was thinking that if the F2 was a female then as you explained the offspring would be 3 generations from the WC. But if it were a male then the F1 is having the offspring and so would still be just 2 generations from the WC. Who's on first?

Interesting......I give up......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Once he awakes! Puff puff Bogart puff
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yes, I'm sure he is having WAY too good a time with his magaz****,..uh, I mean girlfriends at the moment.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But I thought I answered this already. Filial generations are the number of generations removed from the wild. Technically a wc gravid female with unknown male the babies will NOT be F1. F1 starts at the known parents. F1 x F2 HAS to be F3 simply because a F2 cannot beget anything else. To put anything else on the label(% X *)is flat out misrepresentation. Now my ideal of locality maxed at F3 works if you outbreed to wc. To me this is the only fair way to consider f4 and beyond locality. Populations change, habitat changes quicker than we know. Look at Everglades ratsnakes for example. A "locality" snake in 1975 is much much different than the same 2010 version. If you breed locality to represent a location you must also accept that you are putting a time stamp on it. That time stamp becomes invalid when the habitat changes. Beyond F3 selective breeding has alot more to do with the changes in the snake than locality. Misrepresentation of filial generations all but invalidates the idea of locality.
And as for my night, half way into streaking the city square my date stopped a car and got in and drove away. Simple harmless fun can turn into a sex crime really that quick! LMAO!

Ok what you said makes sense. But does it make a difference if the F2 is the Dad or the mom? If the F2 male is bred to his F1 Mom then is it still an F3? Also you keep refering to locality. But as mentioned before this also applies to hybrids so not considering locality the offspring should be able to be labeled f3 and f4, f5 and so on, correct? Sorry if this sounds wierd but Im breathing in fiber galss insulation so I may be a little dizzy. (re-insulating walls today. Oh what fun.)
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

The system was designed for use with hybrids, but you can substitute wc for the orignal hybrid mating. F1 would either be first generation from WC OR first generation king x corn. The number represents generations from the "start", in locality terms WC. IF you bred a F1 x F10 the results HAVE to be F11, its one generation away from the highest number. Insulating on a hot day?!?! On a wieght loss program??

I think I get what your saying.

Not a weight loss but hopefully an electric bill reduction, lol. My electric bill is outrageous during the summer, and I believe it's from poor insulation.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Gotta disagree... a F10 to to a F1 will not be a F11... can never be one... you back track NINE (9) generations and "infect" the blood line. In no way would a F10 look anywhere near what the F1 looked like after 9 generations of inbreeding.

F1 x F3... F4 x F5 ... F18 x F89 does not following the "system"... the term Filial(the F) can not be used here for the resulting offspring by just adding the generation numbers together. The pairings are not compatible with the system, they don't following the system, so they can't be labeled in the same way the system is set up.

That being said a F1 x F10 would be just that a F1 x F10... OR even better as a poster ( garweft) just Clarified F1 x F10 = F1... makes sense... the two animals would be sooo far apart in generations and likely genetics and/or phenotype that it would be like introducing two unrelated parental generations.

system is as such

Parental 1 x Parental 2 = F1

F1 x F1 = F2

F2 x F2 = F3

F3 x F3 = F4

F4 x F4 = F5

F5 x F5 = F6

And so on... If the paring do not follow this system... they can not be described using the terms of this system... they can't be manipulated to fit into a system that wasn't designed to satisfy these back breeding in the 1st place.

Guess that's why we have sooo many morph names!

~ZF

And it wouldn't matter what any of them "looked" like either. All that would be of any relavents to any of this is the correct number of successive generations of line-bred sibs.

I know we see the same picture..LOL!

good luck with your stuff this year Zenny!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ok maybe not a new system? But I think more people will breed an offspring back to one of it's parents than will breed siblings together.

I just realized I am thinking like a breeder who has the original parents in hand. But someone who purchases a pair of snakes will most often buy siblings. Still as breeders I think you get better results and more of the desired results if breeding offspring to parent. So we need another letter, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Keeping with the discussion the terms weren't being used correctly, but with the Internet and digital photography, we don't need a new system... just show the parents. I keep pretty detailed records of my projects. Parent... hold backs (F1)... and F2's photos... there are many ways to accurately represent your stock.

over the next several years I'll be mixing and match all sorts of phenotypes to produce particular "looks"... (I have a vision)... I'll be very sure to show the line of inheritance to anyone interested in asking/knowing.

The only way I wouldn't know info on my stock, was if I purchased a killer snake at a show and the breeder had no info (but I don't really buy from shows any more and I've thinned out snakes I really had zero information on so I have pretty accurate records)... My friends say I have "Borderline OCD?" because I like organization... I take it as a compliment!

So new system... I don't think we need one... we all just need to get with the times, take pictures and keep records. We ALL wont do it... but that's what sets responsible breeders apart from "others."

~ZF

My apologies if F1 x F10=F11....its not ADDING the 2 numbers. Say F5 x F10=F11....meaning that the offspring are 1 more than the higher parent. A F10 cant produce a F6, get it now? It still applies, but its a bad example.

Hopefully not confusing matters more ,You breed an F3 to an F10 the offspring could be F1 from f3/f10 pairing

When you break the chain of succsession with the generations, they can no longer follow suite with the way the scenario would normally work, so you are in essence, starting two somewhat different bloodlines again.

At that point, it is more appropriate just to say F-1 x F-10 breeding, or whatever it may be, and say it is a F-1 clutch FROM that breeding..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

....it would be an F-1 x F-10 back-breeding...(F-1b from F-1 x F-10 back-breeding) I would think that would be straight-forward and accurate enough for anyone's liking

I'm not 100% sure if the geneticists in their white lab coats would right it down in their breeding study log exactly as I did, but it is very easy to understand this way, and doesn't screw with the mathematics of the successive "F" number sequence..LMAO!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This way you could have many different backbreedings going on and just keep notes to what b, or c denotes.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Many different back breedings would most likely be for different traits but not 100%. WC x and F would obviously renew it to F1. But in the terms of LOCALITY, here again is yet another reason how "locality is lost". Beyond some generation, backcrossed or whatever, even though the blood is all X locale the snake is alot more influenced by selective breeding than by its historical environment. We can negotiate the generation, but most would agree a F7 x F10 would not be representative of todays locality snakes. Right?

I've seen that with the Corn snakes in my town. I have some wild caughts that I bred and after only one generation some of the offspring look many times nicer than the parents. Of course I will keep the nicest looking offspring to breed to each other and I expect the babies next year to be smoking!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I know what you are getting at with the locality "look" maybe not being exactly like the original one's that were caught once were, but the locality blood will ALWAYS be coursing through their veins, regardless of what they might look like after many generations. They will NOT just become something else one day, they will ALWAYS have come from that specific locality, even after F-100.

Who says to be "locality", the snake(s) have to look EXACTLY like the parents???

Furthermore, since when do locality animals have to look identical??......they DO NOT!. They can look like night and day from under the very same rock!!

Once locality, always locality, unless some other bloodline is introduced into the mix, simple as that really.

Some think just as you do, and others think as I do. I have talked to many about this too. The snakes do not become generic, or from another place, they are simply locality F-whatever's for whatever that may be worth...LOL!

Also, you can have lots of F-12's that might look like mirror images of the W/C parents, are you going to tell someone at the table...."uh, yeah, I know it looks exactly like the parents, but now they are something else altogether"..LOL!

The locality "idea" is just that, someone's "idea". The fact is, they are STILL locality snakes, be it whatever generation

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

" Once locality, always locality, unless some other bloodline is introduced into the mix, simple as that really. "

Agreed! It is very simple and not at all hard to comprehend.
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Genesis 1:1

SO if I found everglades rats at locality X in 1975 and line bred them for 30 years(10 generations) would you say they would be the same as locality X snakes I found today?? Not a chance. TIME is the 4th dimension, and you have to account for it. If you keep locality snakes you do it for a reason. If that reason is because you want to be able to reproduce snakes that look like they could be found in that spot TODAY, not 40 years ago(and they could look drastically different)then you need a "certain version" of that locality. There can be ALOT of different lines for the same locality, as people keep them for different reasons. If this is so, how much different are locality snakes from generics to begin with?? Just some logical questions...

"SO if I found everglades rats at locality X in 1975 and line bred them for 30 years(10 generations) would you say they would be the same as locality X snakes I found today?? Not a chance"

HUH?????,...are you kidding me??

Jeff, how much is a solid orange snake with four faint stripes going to differ?..LOL!. Do you think the later produced F-10 offspring would become purple or something?

Other more complicated patterned and colored types of snakes could easily look a bit different from their original W/collected parents, but they can also look identical, or anything in between too. It does not change the fact that the parents came from X-locality.....EVER!

With some people, it is only about the very "idea" of having a snake's as least removed as possible from the parents, and it they "represent" them very closely....great!. But if they should look a bit different(or not), they STILL came from the parent's that where captured from point locality X.

What about looking at a 80 year old woman that used to be an absolute "HOTTIE" when she was young?..LOL!. The "idea" of having sex with her would probably be VERY different to you now right??, but in essence, she is the EXACT same genetic being she was before, only older......and OBVIOUSLY looks different now..LOL!

Yes, HUUUGE difference there, I agree!, it is only the "idea" that is way different.

But in any case, simply sell your stuff off as "void of locality" after the third generation if that makes you happy, but it won't change the hard fact that they came from locality-X parents.

It all really comes down to how thin you really want to split the hairs.

So, if someone asked you at your table..."hey, where did the parent's of these nice Everglade's ya got here come from?", would you say..."glad you asked, because both parents were actually captured from the exact same two-acre plot of land on my uncle's farm in Homestead, Florida, OH! but sorry, you best move on to that guy's table over there, he has some real locality Everglade's over there for sale...LMAO!

Bottom line Jeff, just tell folks what the heck generation they are, and move on with everyday life!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff,
I respectfully disagree with you, and please don't take this the wrong way, but what you are implying makes no physical, scientific, and biological sense. Here is why:

You are mixing up time with bloodlines. Bloodlines don't change. Locality does not change. Time is time, a non-physical thing. Time of course, changes with every second. Bloodlines are of course, attributed to physical things, such as our beloved snakes. There are variations of pattern of course with localities, as there is always that possibility, but line breeding, or breeding several lines from the same locality, no matter how long it goes on, does not MAKE the locality factor and fact go away? You following me? No matter if the snakes years later look different, if they are from the same locality and bloodline, they ARE just that!!

You seem to be fixated on the aspect of physical looks and time, and attributing that to somehow magically making locality becoming lost ( You say usually after the 3rd generation, right? How that idea came about is puzzling, to say the least! ). Again, from a scientific standpoint, does the bloodline suddenly STOP becoming the bloodline after so and so amount of generations? HAHA! LOL! Now, come on!!

The difference between locality snakes and generics is basically, the knowledge of knowing where locality stock came from vs. not knowing, thus the label, " Generic " is produced, even though all of the founding snakes/stock to our hobby came from locality stock to begin with, if you think about it. They all came from certain locations all over our earth. To me, I love locality animals, but I don't put them above generic, unlike some, who take it a little too far.

Good questions though and good food for thought!!

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Genesis 1:1

Jeff,
I respectfully disagree with you, and please don't take this the wrong way, but what you are implying makes no physical, scientific, and biological sense. Here is why:

You are mixing up time with bloodlines. Bloodlines don't change. Locality does not change. Time is time, a non-physical thing. Time of course, changes with every second. Bloodlines are of course, attributed to physical things, such as our beloved snakes. There are variations of pattern of course with localities, as there is always that possibility, but line breeding, or breeding several lines from the same locality, no matter how long it goes on, does not MAKE the locality factor and fact go away? You following me? No matter if the snakes years later look different, if they are from the same locality and bloodline, they ARE just that!!

DISCERN, time changes, habitat changes, new blood gets added, old blood diluted, all in adapting to the continually changing habitat. If you dont remember what glades rats looked like 40 years ago I'm sorry. They were better than any pics, and as many line bred hi orange ones I see none look like em. Yes, I said LOOK, but the look changes with the blood to adapt. The water level in the glades have changed, yellow rats arent yellow, glades rats arent orange anymore....they have mixed the blood.

You seem to be fixated on the aspect of physical looks and time, and attributing that to somehow magically making locality becoming lost ( You say usually after the 3rd generation, right? How that idea came about is puzzling, to say the least! ). Again, from a scientific standpoint, does the bloodline suddenly STOP becoming the bloodline after so and so amount of generations? HAHA! LOL! Now, come on!!

DISCERN, the irony here is that 3 generations is about a decade. That is how long where there are noticable phenotypic changes in the wc animals. This is the ONLY thing FR and I have ever agreed upon, so I hold that idea pretty special.

The difference between locality snakes and generics is basically, the knowledge of knowing where locality stock came from vs. not knowing, thus the label, " Generic " is produced, even though all of the founding snakes/stock to our hobby came from locality stock to begin with, if you think about it. They all came from certain locations all over our earth. To me, I love locality animals, but I don't put them above generic, unlike some, who take it a little too far.

DISCERN, I think we value each type about the same. But the idea that there can be so many different lines bred from the same locale is bothersome to me. At some point you have to account for the habitat, the conditions CB snakes are kept in. WIthout parasites, having to hunt for prey or find a mate, inability to CHOOSE a mate....different forms of stress. These factors alone cause noticable changes in color/pattern, as much as if new blood was actually added. To me, and some others, line breeding at infinitem will create generic CB snakes no matter where they are from. They all could have the genetic material to be HONDURAN milks too. Like dogs, big ones and small ones are all related. The question is how closely related to the LOCALITY are they?? If there are differing levels of relatedness, at what point is locality lost? And we are back to the beginning, full circle. You dont have to agree with it, but its enough to aknowledge the logic behind the thinking, these snakes should NEVER be released so they may as well be toys.....

Good questions though and good food for thought!!

" Yes, I said LOOK, but the look changes with the blood to adapt. "

Still, if the locality is the same, then it is just that, and remains the same no matter what. Again, phenotype changes do not magically CHANGE locality within bloodlines or locality. See, no matter what is said, that can not be changed.

" These factors alone cause noticable changes in color/pattern, as much as if new blood was actually added. To me, and some others, line breeding at infinitem will create generic CB snakes no matter where they are from."

See, you are still fixated on outside appearances, which is your opinion, and that is fine. The key phrase you just used was, " As if ". " As if.." is an idea and a collecting of ideas and imagining the scenario of new blood being added, so to say, but it still does not SCIENTIFICALLY have anything to do with changing a bloodline or locality. " As if " does not set anything in stone or give such a concrete base to allow an actual bloodline or locality to magically change, no matter how much someone believes that.

So, there is really not much more that needs to be said. Thanks for your opinions though!
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Genesis 1:1

I guess it comes down to 1 question, do you keep "locality" because you like the LOOK of animals from that area or do you just like the NAME? There may be 1 or 2 people who just like the name.....but I'd suggest the vast majority keep and breed locality based upon the LOOK of the animals found there at a particular point in time. When you were a kid you may have worn toughskins pants, but as sure as the grass gives way to trees and transitional habitat turns to deciduous hardwood forest times change. If you want to keep wearing toughskins...LMAO

Well, since some localities have particular looks, and some do not, it all depends on the individual snake keeper to make that decision. I think all of us keep snakes we like, cause we like the way they look. The fact that some are locality is a bonus, especially for people such as myself and many others. But the overall point is, no matter what they look like or not, if they are locality and kept that way, they are as such, and nothing can change that.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

This is all just your own perception of how you would rather "like" it to be, rather than how it actually "is"..LOL!

DISCERN laid it out as simply, and accurately as it can be put, stop fighting it man..LOL!

BTW,....how many more times are you gonna sell those "Monster Island" hatchlings as locality??. By your own silly rule, if you've line-bred them past 2 or three generations, they are just everyday captive-raised animals.

The one way you will see around this(which I'm sure you will do), is simply breed the same original pair over and over until they pass away. But it still will not change the locality of where any of their remaining offspring were dirived from.

I know what you mean here, BELIEVE ME I do, but sometimes life is too short, and comparing apples to oranges and splitting the hair until nothing is left just isn't worth it.

To "know" you have offspring that came from two parents captured from locality-X is GREAT!, who's arguing there??, but I think there are FAR more pressing, distructful issues in this hobby to worry about besides locality snakes being hatched past generation three for chrissakes!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...if they throw the case out on account of lack of "evidence"
:0
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

"I would certainly not call them that....i would call them F3 X F4s......LOL"

I think I would too John,....at least I would be certain that is definitely what they were, regardless of any terminology..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Correct,......and yes, it doesn't necessarily have to refer to locality animals at all as John pointed out, just the succsessive offspring of an un-related pairing of any kind.

However, as often as the term is thrown around in our hobby, I am quite sure that there are a very high number of folks out there that have no idea what the term means.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...........unrelated pair.....

hmmm.....

still didn't have an answer below...above...whatever.....

so....wild pair is F or F1...?.....same rock let's say....same day....

unrelated...?....so what if I have a pair of sibs....and they breed...they are let's say F2....so F2 x F2 sibs = F2 again if related?.....or back to F3...?

aaaaaah......yes most people don't know locale or genetics at all...at a table, at a show....it's pretty, it's cheap,it's actually wholesale priced, would you take half that price?....Duh........people suck.....LOL

....my thought was I catch 2 in wild they are collected and the first Gen is F1, next F2 F3 etc.....OR the wild was F1 and kids F2 then next generation F3 evn if related or whatever....I thought it just meant how many generations from the start the subject was........as in wild Aru GTP brought here ,bred for 10 years and the baby I have in hand at a show is said to be F3 so I think it means the wild had kids the kids had kids together and then their kids...making it third generation from the wild collected in Aru.....but then some would say Aru doesn't matter anymore if they were all born in NYC...???....

...Thanxxx...
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........JY.......

The wild caught pair are WC....
WC X WC = F1s......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

THANXX......the one post had F in it...I never saw just F used ...

...that was my origional thought....

...Thanxxx....
,
,
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........JY.......

LOL!!,....that was some funny stuff about the concerns at the vendor tables you mentioned..LMAO!!......."cool lookin snake!, what's the best you can do on it man?"..HAHAHA!!

Anyway, yeah, the original "F"(filial) would be ANY two unrelated parent snakes being bred, then, just like you mentioned, the following RELATED offspring generations would follow as....F-1, F-2, F-3, etc...

Too much beyond this, I don't want to confuse myself too much, 'cause I CERTAINLY ain't no geneticist!..LMAO!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

To be more accurate, I really meant to say "usually" unrelated, or at least distantly related. As I have seen it defined in text.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I often times seem the abbreviations F1 F2 being used for so called "Pure" Stock or Locale Specific animals. There was even a discussion (Heated!) a few years ago on this forum about the terms being used incorrectly by hybridizes to represent the offspring from their projects.

In fact the abbreviations F1 F2 F3 etc... came about as the RESULT of hybridization! It was hybridization of pea plants but this is the beginning of the system. I don't recall the name of the scientist (i Know it starts with an M) he was a monk or priest of some sort (I wasn't "allowed" to google so....???)

But I do remember the system.

Parental Generation/"True Breeders" OR Homozygous A x Homozygous B = 1st Filial (F1-Hybrid)

F1 x F1 = F2

F2 x F2 = F3

F3 x F3 = F4

etc... (a lot of inbreeding though!)

This is the birthplace of genetics so we all should take the time out to know it.

One note for the "purist"... a HYBRID results from crossing any two animals that "Breed true"... for example if I breed a B/W king to a B/W king and get all B/W kings... that kingsnake "Breeds true"... If I were to breed the B/W king to a Brown and Yellow Striped king the resulting offspring would vary in appearance (phenotype)... these would be HYBRIDS F1... If I bred the F1s back to each other in theory I should produce offspring that resemble Parent 1, Parent 2 and some "in between". If you Breed a South Florida Brooksi to A Cane Field Floridana the offspring are Hybrids.

If i continuously breed two aniamls from each generation back to each other until i produce a particular "look" that when two animals displaying this "look" are breed together ALL the offspring display this "look" ... this "look" breeds true or "Pure"

Don't belive me... Just think===> Wolves to Domesticated Dogs in an abundance of variations!

What's the point of my post: There are a lot of posts here, people come here for information, a newbie reads information and most of the time doesn't take the time out to seek an alternative view point. Esp. when the view point they're getting if from what they perceive to be "Experts" Unfortunately Some of these "Experts" take information they HEAR and regurgitate it without ever taking the time to research and confirm. So what should be all do? Those of us that are breeders, (whether for profit, hobby, curiosity, etc...) need to take the time out to KNOW how "things" work so that WE can better explain when asked.

I can talk about this stuff (genetics) for days, I Love it! I know that many people wont share my passion for genetic... but it should be your responsibility to know what goes on when you throw two snakes together and it should be your responsibility to figure out what's going on if you get atypical results from a pairing.

Morphs/Variations are becoming a bigger thing every year and the more morphs/variations we see the more interests will grow... Lets spread accurate information!

Have a wonderful day!

~ZF

Great post Zenny.....

So do you agree that an F2 X F1 = F3?????
Regardless of locality or hybrid projects.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

No i disagree.

an F3 would be the result of breeding two F2's

To my knowledge there isn't a term for a back breeding btwn an F1 and F2... hard to give it one, it doesn't follow the "system"... I'm sure it has been done before.

I agree with you.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

If you breed a F2 to it's F1 parent it is called a backcross and resets the filial numbering to 1. That is F1 x F2 = F1.

The filial generations have nothing to do with how many generations the snake is removed from the wild. It is used to track generations of sibling to sibling crosses in lines.

That is exactly how I understand it to be too!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

John, labelling a snake by filial marker is not just a locality stamp but a time stamp as well. You wouldnt call a St Marys county milk a charles county because its close....a F2 snake has offspring it has to be F3 regardless of its mate or its sex. And I've seen it written in a few responses that the determining factor is if they are related. THIS IS NOT TRUE!! The TRUE response is from a genetically controlled mating, they do NOT have to be related. Subsequent generations represent the time distance to a WC animal. And Zenny, Mr. Mendel is the name you were looking for.

>>John, labelling a snake by filial marker is not just a locality stamp but a time stamp as well. You wouldnt call a St Marys county milk a charles county because its close....a F2 snake has offspring it has to be F3 regardless of its mate or its sex. And I've seen it written in a few responses that the determining factor is if they are related. THIS IS NOT TRUE!! The TRUE response is from a genetically controlled mating, they do NOT have to be related. Subsequent generations represent the time distance to a WC animal. And Zenny, Mr. Mendel is the name you were looking for.

It is not just a label of time & distance from a wild caught animal.......
It could also just be a stamp or label of a hybrid project generation......
I have yet to see you mention this Jeff......

I agree the original controlled pairing DOES NOT have to be related.......

Ah yes...Mendel as in simple Mendelian trait......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I hope you weren't referring to my previous input on this. Because the original two PARENTS being bred certainly DO NOT have to be related, and usually would NOT be in this specific scenario. And would usually be very "UN-related". Of course though, two snake's caught in the same area could certainly be related, but that isn't what the original topic here is about. Nobody would know that one way or the other anyway...LOL!

Maybe in all the hubbub here, this got misunderstood somehow, but all successive filial generations created from the two original parents would very obviously be related, that is what I was stating. As you mentioned this DOES NOT mean that they "start" from related parents, usually quite the opposite..LOL!

Of course we are on the same page on this, correct?? This is part of Mr. Mendel's "mendelian law"

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

What's the point of my post: There are a lot of posts here, people come here for information, a newbie reads information and most of the time doesn't take the time out to seek an alternative view point. Esp. when the view point they're getting if from what they perceive to be "Experts" Unfortunately Some of these "Experts" take information they HEAR and regurgitate it without ever taking the time to research and confirm. So what should be all do? Those of us that are breeders, (whether for profit, hobby, curiosity, etc...) need to take the time out to KNOW how "things" work so that WE can better explain when asked.

Zenny, I think you hit 2 nails on the head at once here. First, having differing opinions are a GOOD thing, personal insults aside. Second, going from catching and buying to breeding and selling has to be responsible. You cant breed a F1 x F2 and put anything on it you want, its your responsibility to KNOW and TEACh this to your friends and customers.

I can talk about this stuff (genetics) for days, I Love it! I know that many people wont share my passion for genetic... but it should be your responsibility to know what goes on when you throw two snakes together and it should be your responsibility to figure out what's going on if you get atypical results from a pairing.

Morphs/Variations are becoming a bigger thing every year and the more morphs/variations we see the more interests will grow... Lets spread accurate information!

Zenny, genetics are FUN, but as we get into serious generations of CB animals it wouldnt be a bad idea to try and establish "slush" catagories where genetics are lost, and such animals as our Goini/Brooksi can be lumped in if breeders/buyers forget the paragraph long F this x F that, het for XYZ. Know what I mean? Call em east coast king intergrades...or something. The more genes are found the more combinations are produced the more normal looking het offspring are available. Normally I'd say just wholesale them out as $5 kingsnakes, but even "pure" animals can be that cheap nowadays. I think a slush catagory would be better than having anyone down the line mislabel them as "pure" to make a sale. Even so, is someone is going to mislabel them such a catagory wouldnt affect them. Sadly.

from a buyer's standpoint: How often do I care how many generations something is CBB? I care what the parents look like, if it's feeding, if it's known het for things (if I'm using it in a breeding project). Stuff like that is generally what I want to know about...
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Well you should want to know how often it's been line bred because eventually you'll start to get defectsm like infertility and kinked babies and more.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Well you should want to know how often it's been line bred because eventually you'll start to get defectsm like infertility and kinked babies and more.

Are kinks and infertility due to line breeding?
Are there documented, known cases?

We haven't been able to get new mexicana blood into our projects since the 80s (except for a border confiscation or two).......And our original breeding stock that did make it to the US wasn't a large number of snakes......
We have been line breeding them for decades without any defects due to line breeding........

I've always heard this but I have yet been convinced of such......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Not all kinks and fertility is from inbreeding but YES if you continue to breed siblings and their offsprings and their offsprings without some variation then YES I would say that you will get defects. Bill Loves Blood Reds were famous for having all sorts of inbreeding problems. Today they have been outbred to the point that they are very healthy and very strong genetically.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Not all kinks and fertility is from inbreeding but YES if you continue to breed siblings and their offsprings and their offsprings without some variation then YES I would say that you will get defects. Bill Loves Blood Reds were famous for having all sorts of inbreeding problems. Today they have been outbred to the point that they are very healthy and very strong genetically.
>>-----
I bred one line of thayeri for 3 generations with no ill effects.....Shannon Brown has bred his Tapalpa Ruthveni for 4 generations with no ill effects.......I have a pair of F4 Tapalpa Ruthveni from Shannon and will try and produce F5s next year or 2012.......When should we start seeing defects??????

In the wild......Just an opinion.....
A single outcropping of rocks can house a number of....let's say....Rosy Boas.......
I bet each and every Rosy Boa in that outcropping is related some way.....inbred forEVER.......

I've seen infertility problems with amel Ruthveni.....But nothing else I have worked with......I don't think kinks have any thing to do with in breeding at all.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Isn't that why we can't marry our sisters? I thought it was commonly accepted that inbreeding will bring out and perpetuate genetic defects. I know we live in the south but ....
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

not every species is the same I know with dogs inbreeding seems to result in problems fairly quickly...and for the joys of extended inbreeding, just look at the European royalty, from about 1500 till WWI...
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

While this is very true with certain animals, and certain strains of animals(snakes included), this really depends on many other factors though too, as to exactly how much inbreeding a certain strain can withstand.

It all depends on what other bad, fatal, or otherwise undesirable "tandem" traits might happen to go along with any particular line of animal's chromosomes.

Take for instance, the "bug-eyed" trait in leucistic Texas rats, or no eyes, or cyclops trait with Burmese, or even the small size, finicky feeders, and general lack of vigor in the blood reds you mentioned.

Some snakes are simply affected far less with inbreeding than others are. Another thing is that snakes are a far simpler organism than a dog, or human too. They are FAR more complex genetically-speaking than snake's are.

All these different factors have to be considered here. Yes, some do have problems, while others may show little to no affects from countless inbreedings, it is a very complex thing for us to grasp all of what really goes on inside any organisms genetic coding..LOL!

Of course, all of the crazy stuff we see now in the market was generally a result from doing a certain amount of inbreeding to get the desired "look" in the first place, but it is of course a good idea to introduce new blood once in a while, especially after a weird morph is already well-established and one can afford to easily do so.

But in any case, it really all depends on what other traits we cannot see at all that are also inside the snake's DNA genetic coding. This is something many folks don't even give a second thought to. They just want a cool lookin snake..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah I guess it all depends on if there are any undesirable traits floating around with the original parents that are being line bred? If there is something lurking then it will be sure to pop up eventually.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Yeah I guess it all depends on if there are any undesirable traits floating around with the original parents that are being line bred? If there is something lurking then it will be sure to pop up eventually.

With all that being said....introduction of a new set of genes may be more harmful than good?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"With all that being said....introduction of a new set of genes may be more harmful than good?"

Good point too John, that can always be a very real possibility too!, one never really knows until it is done and the genetic results have endured the test of time.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.....it can all be expressed sooner or later, good AND bad. Just that nowbody knows what "the bad" really is until they are line-bred for a while. Sometimes even immediately, it just all depends.......

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

There eis a very slim chance of this occuring. Just because a handful of traits passed on abonormal traits does not mean it is common. Just like if you swim in the ocean you will get attacked by a shark. Is it possible?.. sure. probable, no!

BTW I prefer the bug eye Blackrat leucistic ratsnakes over the tiny eyed ones., Those big blue eyes are cool as heck.

Can anyone mention a list of these traits that are passed on and what species and morph they effected? I already mentioned the "bug eyed:" luecistic rats. Name some others but please don't include spinal kinks because as in most cases it ghas proven to not be passed on.:O

On another note. I am keeping my fingers crossed for someone to hatch out another two headed snake this year. Maybe a couple of them will turn up during hatch time. As long as one or both of the heads eat, you are golden.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Again with the sharks, lol. I can positively say that I have a Hypo Everglades rat, that I rescued from a pet shop where it was on death row because it wouldn't eat and they did not know what to do. Anyway this snake is gorgeous but every time I have bred it even with a wild caught yellow the babies come out kinked. I have gotten a couple babies with no kinks at all and a few with slight kinks, but the majority were so kinked they could barely crawl and many died in the eggs cause they could not get out. I have not bred him anymore! I did breed a pair of his offspring that were not kinked to see if would still happen and it did. I did not have any other kinked snakes at all with one exeption. I got 2 Abbott Okeetees with slight kinks. This was the third generation from a pair I got from Lee in 04. The original pair were siblings. So I have had to get new genes to add in so that the kinks do not get more frequent. Now I do believe kinks can be a result of other factors also but they surely can be genetic. In this I have no doubt!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What about traits that are not so obvious? Like temperment, poor feeding response, infertility problems, poor nesting skills, egg eating, poor imune systems. There are many traits that can be passed down which are not easy to detect as in the Blood Reds of old. They seemed to be healthy but they would not thrive and fertility was a big problem. They had poor eating responses and often remained thin, untill they were outcrossed.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"What about traits that are not so obvious?"

Very well said Jorge. Fact is ANYTHING "can"(and is) manifested, and potentially passed on to offspring through inbreeding(line-breeding). and a very large percentage of all these different genes and traits that get passed on, we humans have no clue about, and are virtually unseen.

As a matter of fact, there are a fair number of instances where snake's were fully developed(or lets say even half-developed), and it failed to live full-term and hatch. Most of the time this is simply chalked-up as, ...."oh well, must have been something I didn't do correctly", when in fact, it involved a "lethal" gene of some sort, and was not destined to be ..period!

We as snake keepers tend to focus on just a few basic things, the way a snake looks, and the pattern and colors. But there are SOOO many things that can(and do) go wrong, mostly to not much of a noticable degree, it is simply a question of to what extent.

Inbreeding always mutiplies the odds of other non-desireable things showing up too, right along with the good stuff we want to see. Most of the time things go pretty smoothly as far as we can see, but when any two un-wanted, organ jeopardizing, malformation, or lethal alleles line up in a pair on the chromosome helix, that is when they are expressed, whatever it might be. When two animals have the same like genes, this is always greatly multiplied, just no getting around it.

Some years ago, I had a clutch of related anery Hondos produce a clutch, and the entire clutch were fully developed, but their skin was fused together in their eggs where they looped around in the egg, and also had some very abrupt spinal kinks too. It was morbid as all hell looking man!. They looked liked little "paper dolls" like a girl would cut out of a folded up piece of paper and open up..LOL!

I'm pretty sure that had to do with a related gene problem in that particular case, and not something that I did or didn't do.

Any, yes, sometimes sh@* happens..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>What about traits that are not so obvious? Like temperment, poor feeding response, infertility problems, poor nesting skills, egg eating, poor imune systems. There are many traits that can be passed down which are not easy to detect as in the Blood Reds of old. They seemed to be healthy but they would not thrive and fertility was a big problem. They had poor eating responses and often remained thin, untill they were outcrossed.

Good points but some folks line breed FOR temperment and feeding response........I have yet to be convinced but......okay, sure.....lol
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I can't say I have ever bred for temperment, but I have noticed that offspring from jumpy spastic parents usually produce the same in their offspring. The same for calm parents and their offspring. I won't go into a lot of detail but I never met my Dad. He still lives in Cuba and has long remarried and has kids. But my grandma used to tell me that I reminded her of my Dad even in suddle things like shyness, food preferences, and even mannerisms like the way I stand and sit and even sleep. Coincidence?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Those are more likely something she "wants" to see in your than anything genetic. Bone structure, hair color etc may remind her or other things...memories are hardly ever wrong, know what I mean?

Here's something that is strange, and I admit before hand that this has to be coincidence. I studied electronics for a while after high school (never finnished it I was a mess as a kid), and I picked up guitar on my own, no lessons, and now I drive a truck for a living. I found out just recently that He was into electronics, played guitar, and drove a bus! Freaky! You know if your parents never had kids you wouldn't either. Think about it.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!!,..wow!, that IS pretty dang freaky!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That would be IMPOSSIBLE to inherit any genetics from his father..HAHAHAHA!!.........huh????

Dude, forget about being "reminded" of things, he has his freakin father's genetic code!, and EVERYTHING that goes along with it!

Sure alot of things can be attributed to learned behaviors, or being a product of your environment, and learn things from what you may see around you, but Jorge(and everyone else) is exactly half of their father's genetic make-up..LOL!

Now, everyone knows that many Hondo's can be very spastic, some not so much, some insanely so, and anything in between.

I bred two absolutely INSANELY spastic/bonkers ghost Hondo's together, and what do you think happened..LOL!

BINGO!!,....INSANELY SPASTIC offspring!...every single one of them. Was this definitely caused by the two adults being WHACKO'S?, this cannot be proven in only one breeding, but it could easdily be the reason just the same too.

Sure, I have had lots of different temperaments hatched in the past, some can be absolute sweethearts to, and anything from a 1 to a 10 as well as far as nervousness, but these mellower ones usually came from better mannered parents too as a rule.

Surely I am not saying that any offspring will be anything one way or another, but all things are inherited, it's just the way it is.

Yes, it can get complicated I know, because Jeffrey Dahmer's parents weren't freak serial killers, but who can say there wasn't something weird in the genetics waiting to come floating to the surface in ther offspring either..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Honestly that is the first time i have heard proof of spinal kinks being passed down.

I mean, I have heard it is possible but never heard of any confirmed breedings where it took place over several breedings with different mates.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I just took it for granted that everyone knew that? I've known this for years. I'll send you the male hypo if you pay shipping? I'll let you try it, lol. Honestly, I would not make it up. I thought that's why people asked for, and advertised "unrelated pairs"?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Kinks have been proven to be temp related. How temps relate to different periods in egg development isnt fully known yet. Many types of heritable problems could occur, and 90% would be things we dont see like a deformed gal bladder, twisted intestines, or even missing organs. In the scheme of things biologically changing skin pigment is a relatively small change, thats why we see it so often. And its because of these unseen problems that "freak" animals often are weak or dont make it out of the egg. IMHO.

I thought it may have been temps but I tried 3 years in a row, and I had many other eggs many in the same box. But only the Hypo everglades gave me consistantly kinked babies. Whats weird is that even with a WC yellow which should not have had the same inherrently defective genes I got mostly kinked animals. I still have the Male and a pair of his offspring a female with no visible defects and a male with one slight kink. I bred them together last year and they had a small clutch of 6. Two were hypos both kinked one never made it out of the egg. The other was slightly kinked and had severe problems shedding. It died after a couple months. The others were all kinked. The hypos looked real nice too, color wise. In fact I did breed the female(No kinks)to a WC male Yellow and she laid good eggs. I hope they come out with no kinks,but we'll see. I also have some Everglades not related at all to the hypo male. Will you still say that if the Normal Everglades have no kinks and the outcrossed yellow x Hypo Everglades still have kinks?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"Kinks have been proven to be temp related"

More accurately put, many of the spinal kinks we see in snakes have been from temp related incidence. DEFINITELY not all!

Just wanted to throw this out there, and I don't really think you meant they ALL are attributed to high temps either..LOL!

As you will probably agree, certain facets of genetics is quite simple, yet most is still probably very much far too complex for anyone to fully grasp. I know I certainly don't claim to.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I know there were some paper written on this and FR had some things to say. i wish he would chime in on this here but this topic should probably be brought back to the top since it is a pretty good topic for discussion on it own even though its been done here every six months to a year.

Further, everything i have read on inbreeding depression on colubrids snakes says differently.

I don't doubt your breeding experimensts. I find it interesting that this happened with the same animal after it was bred to none related animals. It is something that should be looked into further on your end. To say that spnal kinks caused the related "outbred' offspring would idicate this is a pretty strong abnormality being passed down even while non related mates were being used.

But as far as any past information i have gatered that inbreeding depression or spinal kinks being inheritable. I have not found one good source to prove that can happen with yours being the exception. And then there are other factors like temps etc that could factor in. Also every long term herpetoculturist I have spoke to (confidencially) has found that spinal kinks are not inhertible. I am not saying that it can't happen. Just saying that in most cases where spinal kinked animals were bred, it does not pass on.

keep in mind these experiences/experiments by herpetoculturists must be attempted to be proven. So many that have tried will not speak openly on a public forum for fear of backlash of peoples opinions on this subject and future prodgeny from that breeder does not come in question. But i can tell you I have spoken to many that breed spinal kinked snakes with no transfer or ill effects to subsequent offspring.

Good luck trying to get someone to admit it on here. That is why i think FR is a valuable asset to this forum. Herpetocultursits that are current like Mark bell, BHB etc has a lot better data but won't share on an open forum. Also there are herpers who just take that kinked animals is something that is tranferrable and take that as gospel without any experiments such as yourself.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I guess I just ran in different circles cause I have heard kinks are from inbreeding as far back as I can remember. Like I told Jeff My first inclination was temps. Yet since I had many other eggs incubating in Identical conditions even in the same box. Then that ruled out temps for me. After 3 years of trying to get some good babies from this guy, cause he is very pretty, I have to conclude it's in his genes. This year will be very interesting cause I took a female offspring from that male with a WC Yellow and bred her to yet another WC male completely different all together. So this will be a good test. I realize getting people to admit they have kinked animals is not going to be easy. I am very honest and open, and I would never try to sell anyone an animal that will have any adverse conditions. I don't mind the experiments, it's what to do with the babies that are malformed, you know? I don't enjoy that part!

This is the afflicted male.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

One eyed albino boas?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Sure there are some people who's idea of herping is albino snakes in deli cups. But we arent all like that. It used to be that milkheads were the only locality nutz, not so much anymore. And though there are few choices with species like Thayeri, if new blood becomes available with locality data I'm certain more care would go into which specimens you'd choose to breed.

Not a locality guy (generally) so for me it's silly to line breed more than sparingly. I wouldn't ever *get* to f-10 in the first place out of sibling breedings...working with morphs I might line breed 1-2 generations but can't see going for 3 .
The only time I understand locality obsessions is when there are clear phenotypic differences between localities that exceed the differences within a given locality.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Thanks Doug I didnt know that.
Whats cool about you Doug is that you can teach us stuff w/o having to tell us all, how many decades you have been keeping snakes or how your an "early pioneer" of the hobby,LOL or how many girl friends you have.
Do those two guys want statues made of them? Or have they already errected them in thier own minds?

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

LMAO!!!,....thanks Doug!

I gotta say, you crack me the hell up with some of the funny stuff you post man!

Ya know, towards the bottom portion of that statue, I do believe I can just make out....."dedicated to the founding self-proclaimed "pioneers" of the herp hobby"......

....tiny print underneath that......"paid for with personal funds from the world renowned FR, and Jeff S."

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com