Reptile & Amphibian Forums

PETA and their youth organization PETA2 are sponsoring this years WARPED tour as well as numerous other concerts around the country
in an effort to co-opt America's youth into joining the animal rights movement. Supported by bands such as Fallout Boy, Rise Against and others PETA is making a significant attempt to increase their numbers and spread their message.

As a pet owner and music lover I have decided to BOYCOTT this years Warped tour as well as any other tour sponsored by PETA or any bands that promote PETA and their anti-pet agenda and am inviting everyone that is a pet owner and music lover to join the boycott. Please join me in this boycott and show your support. If you are a member of Facebook please join our group linked below.

This is the first day and we plan on pursuing the boycott as long as tours and bands continue to promote PETA and their anti-pet agenda. Look for more more information, as well as buttons, banners and other promotional materials shortly.

BOYCOTT WARPED TOUR/PETA

Thanks for the heads up.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I'm new here. May I ask, what are your sources for this information? Your Facebook page doesn't list any sources either. That would helpful for those who are interested in informing themselves on facts. Thanks a lot.

R4P

My sources are the Warped Tours own web page - see link below
http://www.vanswarpedtour.com/warpedtour/band.asp?xid=20189

That website doesn't back up any of your other claims, only that yes, The Vans Warped Tour is teamed up with Peta 2. In the real world of research, you're supposed to site your sources to back up what you state as fact, with reliable sources of course, not some hack job website with empty claims. You make the claims, you supply verifiable facts. Is that too difficult? I look forward to checking them out if indeed you can supply them.

I don't know what kind of support you expect to get without reliable sources other than your written word. Just sayin'...

what kind of verification do you need besides Peta listed as a sponsor of the tour on the official tour website?

Well, first off, if you follow the link it'll take you to Facebook, wherein it states "PETA employees make no discernible effort to find homes for the thousands of pets they kill every year. Last year, the Center for Consumer Freedom petitioned Virginia�s State Veterinarian to reclassify PETA as a slaughterhouse". Still, no sources for that. So I goggle the "Center for Consumer Freedom", who is that organization? Leads me to http://www.consumerfreedom.com/. Once inside, still looking for this petition... do you follow? Are we to take everything he says at face value?

What are you all about Pythons4pets? Do you have pet pythons? How long have you been into herps? How did you find this site?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I cant wait to here this! VM

TROLL!

Whether or not she is a troll has not been determined and alienating her with name calling and condemnation is not going to help us. She may really be naive or has not had one of those radicalizing experiences like having animal control break down her door, shoot her dogs, trash her house, and steal all of her reptiles. She sounds like someone who may not even be aware of it if her animals were not legal in her area.
Welcome to the forum, pythons4pets! A lot of us have already been burned by the authorities bribed by (aka" campaign contributions" HSUS et. al. to pass restrictive animal legislation so we can be quite raw and unforgiving. If you stick with the forum you will see why in due time. For eveyone else, I am glad the StephF posts have disappeared. Lets not provoke repeats of that. Thanks everyone.
Under Siege in Milwaukee County WI

Yes. I second that. If Pythons4pets came here with an open mind, to learn a few things, they came to the right place.
Honestly, I don't think there is any middle ground when it comes to Animal Rights Organizations. You can't have it both ways. You can't keep Herps and support their agenda. Two mutually exclusive philosophies.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

Agreed...And the same goes for food at a grocery store. There ain't many men or women who know how to hunt or fish much less process game...

But that's one of the "trees" that the AR folks seek to end as well.

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Great point Jim!

The fact that HSUS and PETA both want to FORCE VEGETARIANISM on roughly 80% of the U.S. population is something everyone needs to hear!

If we could somehow link our plight to the above agenda, then we might have a fighting chance to come out of this with only a few bruises, even with agribusiness throwing us under the HSUS / PETA bus in Ohio.

Webwheeler,

Thanks and back at ya...

>>The fact that HSUS and PETA both want to FORCE VEGETARIANISM on roughly 80% of the U.S. population is something everyone needs to hear!

This is contrary to man's physiology...Just look at our teeth and our nutrional requirements...We are omnivorous because we have nutrional requirements to survive...A vegetarian diet is NOT what we are and without animal protein supplements, long term survival without chronic health issues is NOT possible.

But then again, we already know this as do they...So just what is it that they actually seek? We already know that Mother Nature controls animal populations by two primary means on a scale necessary to cause mass death...They're called famine and disease. Eating a vegetarian diet (no animal protein) will result in both over the long term...

So what is it that they actually seek?

We already know the answer man...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

This doesn't relate directly to your question but it's related to AR and it's something I noticed a while ago. AR people like to talk about how many acres/pounds of food it takes to raise beef vs. how much less it takes to grow a comparable amount of vegetable protien. There is a big difference and that fact is often used to support claims that vegetables are much better for the environment.

In some cases this may be true, I'm admittedly not very knowledgable on the subject. However I do alot of fieldherping, including roadcruising, and it has led me to an interesting observation. Most of the agricultural areas I've roadcruised are deviod of snakes. The exception being where there is a significant buffer zone of natural or semi-natural habitat between the agriculture and the road. In contrast most, if not all, cattle grazing areas I've hunted have an abundance of snake life. I make several trips per year to the Sierra Nevada Mtns., coming from the coast. It is about a five hour drive for me and usually the return trip takes place at night. The drive takes me through extensive areas of both agriculture and grazing so I've had the chance to roadcruise both habitats on the same nights and under the same weather conditions. Where the agriculture comes right up to the road I almost never see any snakes, neither live nor dead. In the grazed areas I have seen tons of snakes, both live and dead.
Anyways, I thought this was worth mentioning as the AR movement always gives beef a bad rap but I think it's much more complex than they make it out to be.

It can be argued that eating free range ruminants (e.g. cows) is the best way to satisfy the Least Harm Principle. See OSU SCIENTIST QUESTIONS THE MORAL BASIS OF A VEGAN DIET

Webwheeler,

Free range animal husbandry is a good thing as it is a return to the private citizen providing food on a local basis as opposed to the vast commercial operations to produce food to sell on a national scale (why they need cheap labor)...

This is local people providing food to their local citizens for what ever profits their local economy will support...I'm ALL for the family farm, ranch, etc as they are making their own decisions on the local level.

The large commercial operations are making decisions for investors and as a consequence, their decisions are made in board rooms and in the halls of congress...

In other words, family farming is quality versus the quantity of the large commercial operation. Another consideration here is who does the bureaucratic regulator - and as a consequence, the professional politician - want to deal with? 1,000's of angry citizens or just a few large corporations on election day? Think about it...

Just my 10-cents worth...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

If you haven't already seen the documentary, Mad Cow Sacred Cow, I highly recommend watching it!

Yes. That is exactly what they're trying to do to the individual small time Herp Hobbyist/entrepreneur. They're trying to "corporatize" the system/model and limit access only to insiders (authority and institutions) and to money (corporate business model). It's all about control.

Take the new Texas Turtle Regs for example -- It is OK for the most practically and economically feasible commercial food species (Common Snappers, Softshells, RES) to continue to go to China, if captive born or from private land. All else is verboten.

How in the world does that stop the inhumane carnage of turtles being shipped to China for the Dinner Table? That was the HSUS and PETA drum beat we heard endlessly during the campaign to enact these regulations. However, these new regulations do in fact facilitate the Chelonian Chop Stick Market for certain commercial agricultural economic entities.

Leaves access to everything else to the Authorities and Institutions. Oh yes, the Sheriff of Nottingham is doing a very good job protecting the natural resources and economic interests of Nobility.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

Yep, you've nailed it...They're doing the same thing for the seafood industry in the Gulf of Mexico (before the Deepwater Horizon disaster)...

Heavily regulate/restrict the small fishing boats (charter boat)...For the benefit of the large commercial fishery operations...

Controls to benefit the selected and approved "special interest"...In other words, this is "protectionism" via government regulation...After all, it's easier to deal with a few corporations than 1,000's of interested citizens on election day...And then there are those campaign contributions...Large corporations give more money with less effort than it takes from 1,000's of citizens...

Unless of course you have a vast philanthropy funded (via grants and donations) "grassroots" organization to turn to for manning phone banks, send out fliers, etc...After all, there's a vast labor force at the processing plants that could be unionized...Which generates another source of political campaign cash for the professional politician.

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Damn Jim, that was a profound and true statement. WELL PUT....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

Thanks man but we already knew this...No matter where we live, we've seen the "scientific method" in practice as we learned it from either school (back when it was still a "classical" education), from experience of just growing up in the boonies or on a farm or a combination of the two...Experimentation, observation and/or a combination of the two. And to think we're just amateurs...Hardly. You've been advocating this "stuff" for years man...

These days, it's been redefined with the incorporation of the "social science" as this is the only way the "scientific method" can be comprimised to allow for opinion (propaganda)...Which by design allows for the dialectic, a false premise to justify their "truth"...A fact is a fact. Whether it's from history or science...Unfortunately, a fact can be detrimental to the desired outcome so the obvious solution is to allow for grant supported debate outside of science to achieve the desired result...Even if it's NOT supported by facts!

How else can "they" justify the expenditure of millions of tax dollars to subsidize failure...It's by design to allow for "social justice" outside of scientific fact to support the "protectionism" of their approved "special interests"...

More bluntly, what we're witnessing is nothing more than Fabian socialism which was used to subvert Great Britain...Which is basically the creation of the "welfare state" - which includes the "special interest" class - by using regulation (laws) from the government class over time to destroy a country from within...In other words, it's death of a country's economy and sovereignty by a 1,000 cuts...

Simply stated, socialism is public control of the private means of production, distribution and exchange that includes subsidies to protect their "special interest" facilitators under the guise of private memberships...Do you have a different explanation?

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Another simple facet of how this is often ignored is that there are a lot of other species that are well adapted to living in a sustainably grazed area as compared to those found in a monoculture field..
Ed

Aaron,

Excellent point man! From what we used to be taught in colleges and universities, this is the scientific method in process � before �they� redefined it by inserting �social� science � of hypothesis, theory and law. As we were once taught in higher education, the scientific method is based upon observation, experimentation and/or a combination of the two. I�ve observed the same thing in my field herping observations!

Simply stated, agriculture that is �cultivated� (especially row crops) requires tilling the land�Which basically disrupts the top 12 inches of the soil�Which in turn creates a temporary habitat for the predators and their prey because �permanent� fixtures (cover) are removed and nest sites destroyed�Therefore creating a �transitional� (temporary) habitat which can be exploited only for food at certain times such as when prey is available at harvest time (e.g. corn, wheat, etc)�The permanent habitats are the riparian areas left in place to prevent wind and water erosion of the soil itself. However, after the land is initially cleared of trees to create range land (ranching, dairy farming, etc), the habitat is basically stable � although changed from forest to savannah � an �ecosystem� can be established for habitation of prey (grass seed, etc) and their predators�

Having said this, we have to grow food so cultivated agriculture is necessary�The trick is finding the balance�

Later,
Jim.

PS: I learned it � pounds of food per acre � as �carrying capacity� with its primary discriminators of quality of the soil and water�The more abundant and better quality results in higher capacity and the reverse results in lower capacity.

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CSRAJim

Just look at our teeth and our nutrional requirements.

Are you trying to tell me those four pointy canines I have in my head aren't intended for puncturing the skins of grapes????? Man this is just unbelievable!!!!!

Calparsoni,

>>Are you trying to tell me those four pointy canines I have in my head aren't intended for puncturing the skins of grapes????? Man this is just unbelievable!!!!!

HA! HA! And after peeling those grapes, those molars can be used to chew the grape pulp into a product, with the addition of yeast, for generating alcohol from fermentation! Ummmmmmmmmmm good!

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Thanks for the welcome, WIReptile, as well as jscrick below this. I certainly wasn�t expecting all the responses and sure enough I would be the one to sign up here on a day when highly political threads were started. Not sure I�ll be able to bring myself to read all the responses that spawned from them. So instead I just tried to find the first positive one, even though it was found on the troll one. As a matter of fact, no I have not had any animal control raids on my property. Although I have read of one in particular that happened somewhere back east to a well respected breeder. Sad indeed. I do understand if many of you have had such experiences then by all means you would feel bitter about that. I would too. Let me state that I am not associated with HUSA or PETA or any animals rights orgs, although like it or not, I do feel that someone needs to stand up for rampant abuses in the commercial meat industry. That�s my choice. These orgs are far from perfect, I completely understand that. And I don�t think it�s cool they try to ram the vegetarian lifestyle down those who love meat and anyone who will listen.. And with their stance on no-reptiles-as-or-any-pets, I fully disagree with that. That they are �indoctrinating the young� just sounds a bit conspiracy theory-ish to me so I won�t go there with that. I know someone in the threads stated it�s something like either fully against them or fully not. I see it this way, it�s like when trying to choose a leader (I won�t mention any names) but getting a choice between satan and a lesser satan, what are we supposed to do? It�s an ongoing quest to try to determine the �most perfect� anti-abuse type org to side with, one that doesn�t mess with responsible reptile pet keeping and breeding. I�m just a small herp breeder. I keep a variety of pythons, boas, colubrids; I sell locally to choice collectors and I do minimal, if any, advertising. I�ve been able to keep a steady but small side income doing it, and my care standards surpass other breeders/collectors that I know. I�m a mite nazi and cleanliness freak. I care for my own animals if and when they fall ill mostly w/o need of a vet. I�ve many times helped out my fellow keepers animals when theirs go sick.
I was here to join in the larger community and see what the industry outside of my little realm is doing. I�d considered signing up here before but because my time is so limited I just didn�t get around to it. Call me na�ve if you like, doesn�t bother me. Nor does any of the name calling, I can rise above that because I don�t take it personally. If I�ve offended anyone here, then you have my apology, there was no offense intended. I�m happy to lay low, keep my political leanings to myself and stick with the hands-on side of herpetoculture that is what I really care about.

I think most of us were a bit naive in the beginning, believing HSUS and PETA were actually a "good" cause for the animals, simply by their names. I know I was. However, once you get past the veneer and get a better look at the organization(s), with a better understanding of their relationship to and involvement in Government policy, you understand differently.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence here on this site/forum to convince any reasonable person so. I suggest you look back through the threads if you have the time and inclination.

Your story is interesting, but I'm still a bit skeptical. You come out of nowhere (we don't know you and you don't seem to know us) and claim in a very generic scripted way to have been here all along. Yet you are seemingly unaware of our perspective. How is that?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hi agani,
I hear you, and I’ll take your advice on that. I don’t doubt there’s a wealth of info here, I have some free time over the next few days I’ll definitely look around. I do know of Kingsnake.com, just like I said I hadn’t gotten around to coming here to get more acquainted. I can understand if you’re skeptical but I honestly wasn’t aware of the magnitude of this particular hotbed going on in here. I haven’t done any ads here because I haven’t needed to. When that time comes I’m sure I’ll be all over it. Until then, being new here and all, I’ll do my best to listen and learn before jumping in blazing like I already did. I’m sorry that you see my reply as generic and scripted. Not sure what else to say other than those are my words only, typed from behind my flatscreen monitor looking out into cyberworld at you. If anything, what I can learn from the perspectives here may help spur me into action to help this industry in whatever way I am able. Thanks for your time and I’m sure I’ll be seeing you here more often.

it�s like when trying to choose a leader (I won�t mention any names) but getting a choice between satan and a lesser satan, what are we supposed to do? It�s an ongoing quest to try to determine the �most perfect� anti-abuse type org to side with,

There are some of us out here with the philosophy that the lesser of 2 evils is still evil. There are other choices for political candidates besides the 2 corporate parties (who in my opinion are no different from each other.). These smaller parties fall on both sides of the political spectrum and often times address issues more important to average people than do the corporate parties whose interests these days seem to center on wall street. It would be really nice if everybody would catch on to this concept and vote for smaller parties that conform to their views and throw the corporate incumbents the hell out of office.
Personally I no longer vote for either of these 2 parties and to those who love to give that tired argument that a vote for a smaller party is a vote against the larger one you agree with all I have to say is my vote is my voice and I say neither party is fit to run this country and I refuse to silence my voice to agree with a larger group of people who don't hold my views.

I wish the smaller parties would get to the forefront too so we have more options! When, will that ever happen, I hope sooner rather than later.

It will happen when people take the first step and start voting for them.

few years that our hobby / industry has been attacked with increased vigor by legislators, fueled by AR organizations. We have always been subjected to increasing legislation, at least since I became involved in the late '60s / early '70s. But I believe that the media frenzy whipped up by the 'Glades python and gator photo a few years back gave the humaniacs the card they needed to convince lawmakers that we are fair and EASY game RIGHT NOW.

I don't think there is any conspiracy. It is just a lucky (for AR groups) coincidence that their anti exotic agenda, the media looking for sensationalistic news and photos, and politicians looking for scapegoats to blame to take away public attention for their incompetence, all converge on this being a good time to target a relatively minor constituency - us! Add in a public that generally doesn't care for herps (especially snakes), is looking for somebody to blame for all of our problems, and doesn't have the time or inclination to research further into a problem they don't have any stake in, and you have a perfect storm - for us!

The reptile industry is not COMPLETELY blameless - there are irresponsible reptile keepers and breeders just are there are irresponsible people in every hobby or business you can name. But many of those hobbies / industries are not attacked like we are because they are seen as more difficult, expensive, more popular, or more vote wielding targets than we are. The fact that we are targeted so heavily because of money, AR agendas, and political ploys, instead of biological, or even just logical, facts, is why many of us are skeptical, or even bitter, about humaniac groups and their paid legislators.

ANIMAL WELFARE is important and I doubt that anyone on this forum is against it. But you CAN'T BARGAIN with AR groups such as PETA and H$U$. They want to END OUR HOBBY, and are willing to do it one step at a time. ANYTHING you do to help them in ANY WAY is helping them to eventually end our hobby. They may do something you like to help animals - occasionally. But when they finish, they will turn their attention to you (us). There are LOTS of ANIMAL WELFARE groups that can use your support. And there are LOTS of anti cruelty laws already on the books. If they are enforced, we probably don't need more laws. This country already has way more laws than can ever be enforced.

And that is why you will find politics a hot subject with herpers these days. We didn't ask for it - it was thrust upon us.

I appreciate your response. It's very disheartening, the more I find out the more I feel I don't want to know. Yet without this knowledge we can't help ourselves or others. thanks again.

I have been involved in herps for a long, long, time. I see these attacks on our herp keeping freedoms as only a small symptom of the erosion of ALL kinds of freedom that we used to have. Kids today will never be able to do the kinds of things I did when I was younger. Between new laws, and lawsuits, it is a very different world.

Voters owe it to themselves, and their kids if they have any, to research every new law that limits freedom, and decide LOGICALLY if the benefits outweigh the costs. And vote against legislators who pass new laws that are not totally logical, and likely to reap more benefit than cost. Vote with logic, not emotion. Most incumbents need to leave - way too much entrenchment and corruption. I only hope Americans will wake up before it is too late. It is a lot harder to gain back freedom than to avoid losing it in the first place.

AR groups are about making money through emotional ploys. Google them and see where their money goes. How much goes to salaries, pensions, and fancy offices? Don't rely on any one website - there are lots of choices. And also Google quotes from some of the present and past leaders of each group. Their own quotes will often let you know their true agenda.

"I�m just a small herp breeder."

Then you should be anti-PETA. Once all the anti-herp laws start going into effect, "small breeders" will quickly go extinct.

Like other have said, no one is against animal WELFARE, especially a group that owns and loves animals (ie, herp owners.)

"I keep a variety of pythons, boas, colubrids; I sell locally to choice collectors and I do minimal, if any, advertising. I�ve been able to keep a steady but small side income doing it, and my care standards surpass other breeders/collectors that I know. I�m a mite nazi and cleanliness freak. I care for my own animals if and when they fall ill mostly w/o need of a vet. I�ve many times helped out my fellow keepers animals when theirs go sick. "

Where are you located? What do you breed? I and people I know are always interested in top quality snakes, maybe I could get you some business.

Thanks,
Ed

I agree Ed. That is so right out of the Penthouse Forum for Herpers it's not even funny. So, tell me, what is the nomenclature of those species you have experience with?

For someone that is not at all convinced of Jeff's assertions...not proof enough..."I�m just a small herp breeder. I keep a variety of pythons, boas, colubrids; I sell locally to choice collectors and I do minimal, if any, advertising. I�ve been able to keep a steady but small side income doing it, and my care standards surpass other breeders/collectors that I know. I�m a mite nazi and cleanliness freak. I care for my own animals if and when they fall ill mostly w/o need of a vet. I�ve many times helped out my fellow keepers animals when theirs go sick."...that's about as anonymous and worthless credentials as can be had.

Oh by the way, did I ever tell you about the time I...

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It's obvious I started off on the wrong foot here. Not sure that it's getting any better at this point after reading this. It's easy for you to try to intimidate/scare off/write off brand new members just because they showed a different view than yours, that's your perogative. Why should I spill everything now to you, a stranger, about what I do with snakes?? Are you effin' kidding me? Perhaps this was a great test after all to gauge how this community would receive a new member. I had my ambivalence joining well before I came here and now I know why. I'll never take my woman's intuition for granted again. You've all done fine w/o me all this time so you probably don't need me around. Thanks but no thanks.

Pythons4pets,

>>It's obvious I started off on the wrong foot here.

Maybe so but you can either learn from it or go away...There are people here on this forum that are "legends" in our time about what they have accomplished for the entire herp commmunity including most of the zoo's and university's in thiscountry - before they redefined the classical "scientific method" to include "social justice" and "animal rights". Heck for some of them, I knew about them when I was a teenager (no offense Kathy) and a college student back in the late 70's and early 80's...

In other words, there are people here from which you could learn something about the real world as opposed to the "biased' version from the media or the pamphlets and infomercials from 501c3, non-profit, tax-exempt organization whose primary interest is money under the banner of conservation and the environment...You have an opportunity to learn something...

>>It's easy for you to try to intimidate/scare off/write off brand new members just because they showed a different view than yours, that's your perogative.

This isn't about intimidation...It's about defending a passion for a cherished endeavor that we've been doing since we were kids. Because we've spent countless hours researching "stuff" we've been able to remove the rose colored glasses and see the agents of the destruction of our freedoms...You can choose to be naive if you want but one day, you'll find out that due to ignorance, you've lost something...Most of us here are not willing to take that lying down...

>>Perhaps this was a great test after all to gauge how this community would receive a new member. I had my ambivalence joining well before I came here and now I know why. I'll never take my woman's intuition for granted again. You've all done fine w/o me all this time so you probably don't need me around.

Look, you have to learn to stand on your own two feet here and an uninformed opinion is more than likely to be challenged if it's not well founded...By the way, who cares about your gender (woman's intuition)? Kathy's probably forgotten more knowledge than most of us here (except for Tom, perhaps) will ever know...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Hi Steph. By Steph. Ha!...Ha!
Such a clever girl.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"Such a clever girl"

Wasnt that the line of the british actor in Jurassic Park just before the velociraptor ate him?

Yes it was
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

>>I agree Ed. That is so right out of the Penthouse Forum for Herpers it's not even funny. So, tell me, what is the nomenclature of those species you have experience with?

That's funny. Not that I've ever read Penthouse Forum or anything...

Not sure why anyone thinks this person is NOT a troll.

Thanks,
Ed

...it is Staph F...

>>That website doesn't back up any of your other claims, only that yes, The Vans Warped Tour is teamed up with Peta 2. In the real world of research, you're supposed to site your sources to back up what you state as fact, with reliable sources of course, not some hack job website with empty claims. You make the claims, you supply verifiable facts. Is that too difficult? I look forward to checking them out if indeed you can supply them.
>>
>>I don't know what kind of support you expect to get without reliable sources other than your written word. Just sayin'...

My name is Jeff Barringer, I don't do hack jobs. I have operated kingsnake.com since 1997. From 1998 through 2001 I was the President of the National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council.
I have also acted as a consultant to the USDA on the reptile industry. There are THOUSANDS of reptile hobbyists worldwide that will have no problem supporting me just on my written word alone but in the end I will not be relying on that. The documentation you have requested is forthcoming, en mass. I have 20 years of documentation regarding reptile and wildlife laws, and the organizations on both sides of the issue. I and my associates have more than enough documentation regarding PETA to turn the stomach of any normal person.

I find it interesting that you registered today, came immediately to this forum, the herp law forum, out of the dozens of forums we have to discuss animals, and then proceed to act "amazed" that we would be discussing the animal rights agenda. "I just opened an account here today and first I see is this along with the Boycotting PETA post." I will note that you have not posted in any other forums, have not provided anything to back up your bonafides, you haven't even told us who you are.

Now any other "reptile" person, i.e. someone interested in animals would have gone to the other forums first rather than the
forum devoted to the political aspects of keeping animals. That says to me that your interest do not lie with the animals, but with the politics. You say your 30 years old and an experienced reptile keeper. I say that if that's true then you've been living under a rock. But based on your cute EMail address I would say that your more likely a lower level PETA or HSUS flack
that stumbled across this and decided to troll. I usually don't feed the troll's but that's ok. I invite you to bring all your buddies here and pile on.

I plan on making this boycott a long term project and fully expect that in the end one if not several of the following will happen:

1.) PETA will send their lawyers after me, which I look forward too.
2.) PETA will send a bunch of naked co-ed activists to chain themselves to my house, which I am REALLY looking forward too.
3.) PETA will have their buddies in ALF come over and firebomb my house - I am not looking forward to that but am prepared.

So - go tell your friends and lets party

This is just day 1 of the boycott.

I'm at a loss for words. We all know that rarely happens! LOL
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Awesome post, makes me want to support this website even more now. Thanks Jeff.

Jeff,

That was simply CHOICE to read!

later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

AMEN JEFF!!!!
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I'm glad I'm on your side, Jeff!

I just "shared" it with all of my FaceBook friends!

3.) PETA will have their buddies in ALF come over and firebomb my house - I am not looking forward to that but am prepared.

I really wish they WOULD try this at my house (try is all they would accomplish). unlike the rest of my neighbors here in Paisley I wouldn't shoot them (perfectly legal here in fl. under such circumstances according to the castle doctrine.) but by the time I was through with them they would wish I had shot them.

...next to Shawn Heflick you are now my favorite reptile hero...
...no offense to Andrew (hes a little to soft and easy going for my tastes)but you should be president of USARK!

>>...next to Shawn Heflick you are now my favorite reptile hero...
>>...no offense to Andrew (hes a little to soft and easy going for my tastes)but you should be president of USARK!

Thank you for your kind words but I can be more effective in my current role here at kingsnake.

i love that the peta2 comment on the web site thinks that the stickers are the most important thing
i had the misfortune to run into a girl at a concert for peta2, she commented on my tattoo of my beardie, i told her i run a reptile rescue, she thought that was so great, thats when i told her what a hipocrit and she should learn the truth about the org she was representing, she just stared at me like a deer in headlights, these poor kids are being duped into spreading hate they don't even feel!
Jeff, I'm so glad we have people like you to stand up for us! i have been on kingsnake for years and love it!
BTW, if the naked co-eds show up, i want an invite, or at least pics!
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hanging out under heat lights burns up my brain cells!!

Very well said.

Bill

>>I'm new here. May I ask, what are your sources for this information? Your Facebook page doesn't list any sources either. That would helpful for those who are interested in informing themselves on facts. Thanks a lot.
>>
>>R4P

Well in light of the fact that someone else not informed will stumble across this post and need documentation. Any organization operating as an animal shelter MUST by law submit forms to the state per their laws in regards to dealing with controlled substances. The controlled substance in this case is a "medicine" called Fatal Plus. Fatal Plus is the shelter approved euthanasia serum and is made of sodium pentobarbital. Those who administer the solution must either be a vet, a vet tech under the supervision of a vet or a CET or Certified Euthanasia Technician. I am a CET.

None the less I digress. While people may be able to question the CFC, the state filed paperwork for the Commonwealth of Virginia is available and an open record.

You may view the horrible euthanasia rates of the shelter better known as PETA here.

For the 2002 fiscal year their #1 highest business purchase was a walk in freezer

As for the illegal disposal of animals, I believe that was plea bargined.

Now granted any open admission facility will have euthanasia stats, however when PETA openly admits to the desire to eliminate one breed grouping of dogs to stop animal abuse, you know that there are perfectly healthy stable dogs being killed.

Having debated against PETA on the air in regards to their stance on "pit bulls", I know all too well the fallible logic included. They openly admit that they wish to end any animal ownership. Now if you are truly interested take a few moments to learn. Research beyond the CFC, we merely use their information because it is all centrally located.

And as someone who has worked in an open admission shelter, I will tell you that there is NO freaking need for that many animals to die per year. NO SHELTER will see that many sick, injured or tempermentally unstable animals, PERIOD.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

PETA kills 95 percent of the dogs and cats taken into their shelter in Norfolk, Virginia.

Those kill rate statistics come from documents PETA filed with the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, which requires that all shelters that “take in animals for purposes of adoption” report how many of those animals leave the shelter alive each year.

Last year, PETA’s total intake of such animals was 2,216 dogs, cats, and a very few other pets. The organization, which has an annual budget of $32 million that they’re obviously very happy to spend on press releases that the media obediently laps up like thirsty puppy dogs, found homes for exactly seven of those animals.

The other 2,209? They killed them.

Don’t tell me that’s the best they could do. The average kill rate for all shelters in Virginia is less than 50 percent. Many shelters that would die of happiness to get their hands on a fraction of PETA’s budget have save rates as high as PETA’s kill rate.

Camden County, New Jersey, has one of the highest poverty rates in America, and yet its Animal Welfare Association, with a budget less than 10 percent of PETA’s, only euthanized 224 of the 3343 dogs and cats who came in its doors last year.

Back when no-kill crusader Nathan Winograd was president of the Palo Alto Humane Society, he sought PETA’s support for a program to save the lives of feral cats. Newkirk refused, sending him a postcard saying that PETA does not “advocate ‘right to life’ for animals.”

PETA doesn’t have a reverence for life. PETA has a publicity machine that leaps on every little thing that will get them the attention of the media. And why should they stop? It keeps working.

Until the people who bring them on board, in most cases innocently believing that PETA is a mainstream animal advocacy group with a slightly outlandish PR approach, are hit in their pocketbooks and reputations with the reality of who they're teamed up with.

I regret that I failed to make this distinction with my initial post.

I mentioned open admission shelters euthanizing. No kill organizations, rescues, shelters and facilities will also euthanize. All facilities will have this come about. I mentioned open admission merely because the PETA facility is described as an open admission animal shelter.

The difference is vast and I would like to explain why this issue gets those of us who are actively involved in animal welfare upset.

Euthanasia - The ending of a life due to several behavioral issues that are not correctable via training. The ending of life due to severe health issues such as injury or terminal illness.

Killing - To put to death healthy animals.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of facilities that network to place animals. Even if they are a kill facility, they will work to reach out to contacts to help get the animals out rather than euthanize. The links provided by PHChristy outline this quite well.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

It looks like for about every 1 animal they adopt out 100 to 200 get euthanized. If they euthanize that many I wonder why they are always opposed to euthanizing feral populations. Like they don't want any of the nonnative cats, goats, etc. that are harming endangered species on the Channel Islands, CA to be killed by the government, what's the difference between that and their euthanasia of thousands of dogs and cats that they do?

>>If they euthanize that many I wonder why they are always opposed to euthanizing feral populations.

Aaron, PETA supports killing feral cats... they're infamous for it.

Like I keep saying, even many who would call themselves supporters of animal rights really don't know what PETA is actually about, and if they did, they would stop supporting them.

Oh, thank you for the correction. I posted off the top of my head without researching. I do seem to remember somebody being opposed to removing and killing some ferel species on the Channel Islands. Maybe it wasn't PETA, I'll have to do some looking into it.

Sources for "PETA kills pets":

PETA Continues Slaughtering Pets in 2009

Inside PETA’s freezer: Oops! They did it again!

PETA kills rates for 2008: 95 percent

PETA's Slaughterhouse for Dogs and Cats
terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/03/petas-dog-shelter-is-really-slaughter.html

Photos of animals killed by PETA (graphic)

PETA's Pet Slaughterhouse
pajamasmedia.com/blog/petas-pet-slaughterhouse

So your saying theres even more reasons why I shouldnt go stand in a parking lot, watch some guy fall off a skate board and listen to ten different bands that couldn't sell out a garage.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Jeffs new name SNIPER one shot one kill f--in bullseye.go jeff!
Pete M

...dirty 4 letter words in my house...
...i'm with you!

Look, I've been a breeder of turtles and other herps for 20 years, im no kid. I dont agree with every one of PETAs feelings about keeping anomals as pets, but PETA recues millions of all spieces of animals every year. I myself am an animal lover first. Anyone telling you to Boycot animal rights groups is an idiot just looking to profit in some way, dont be brainwashed my young friends. ,,,,,,,,,,got turtles?,,,,,,,,,,

> dont be brainwashed my young friends.

Why, that brainwashing seems to be working for you. Perhaps you should spend a little time educating yourself on the organizations you support. PETA doesn't save animals, it kills them, especially when it suits their agenda.

Jeff, this is so unlike you. Somebody or something really got under your skin. I think I like it. You know best. You are very wise. Be careful.
jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I have sat on the sidelines too long

Most everyone on this forum is well informed about Animal Rights, PETA, HSUS and their affiliates. So, there is no need for you to waste our time or yours. If you truly love animals and want to keep them as pets, then please help us fight for that right instead of being critical of members here.

I don't need to be "brainwashed" by other people. My attitudes about peta and hsus and some of the other (lunatic) fringe animal rights groups didn't come from kingsnake or rush limbaugh, or shawn hannity or anyone else out there they came from firsthand knowledge gained by working one on one with a bunch of these kooks at a humane society infiltrated with them. Humane societies and animal shelters are great places that do a lot of good for trying to save animals. organizations like peta on the other hand do little if anything to save animals and their people are real whackjobs.
I am not sure which organization publishes it but there is a magazine out there called "animal agenda" you should check it out sometime. I will warn ahead of time though that if you are black you probably shouldn't check it out because the articles comparing keeping animals to slavery will probably really offend you. I know they did me and I'm white. I could go on and on with this subject with things I saw first hand that I would never believe if I hadn't seen them for myself but I do have things to do today.