Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've bumped up this topic because it sprang out of another topic and it's way down on this page. This seems to be very interesting especially to me since I have an Everglades Rat snake that consistantly gives me kinked babies even when I bred him to a wild caught female Yellow Rat. Does any one else want to chime in, or give an opinion? Can kinks be a product of inbreeding? Yay or Nay?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Well, considering you used a WC in the pairing, what are the chances of inbreeding? Are you sure the kinks aren't formed by your temps/humidity levels?

Yeah I admit it's not really inbreeding if I used a WC female and still get kinks. But could this male have been inbred so badly before hand that he has a very strong propensity for kinked babies? Is it geneticly passed down? I used this same male 2 years and both years gave me kinked babies. Not only one or two but the majority were kinked. I bred two of his best offspring and they had kinked offspring! So a total of 3 years using this "line" produces kinked babies. I didn't record the data but I only got one or two babies that were not kinked at all. The eggs were incubated along with all my other eggs and some in the same box. So if it were a temp problem it should have affected my other eggs, but did not.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah I admit it's not really inbreeding if I used a WC female and still get kinks. But could this male have been inbred so badly before hand that he has a very strong propensity for kinked babies? Is it geneticly passed down?

I don't know why that snake is producing kinked babies even though it is bred out. If it is passed down it would almost act like a gentic codom trait.

I have no answer why your snake is consistently producing kinked babies. Maybe just bad luck or coincidence? Unrelated snakes do occasionally produce kinked babies. That is why it is linked to incubation or other aspects of fertilizion.

I guess someone who knows what goes on inside the egg at fertiliztion or during the incubation priocess and how an embryo devlopes can explain this.
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www.Bluerosy.com

and his offspring! So I have to rule out temps when all the other eggs have been incubated in the same exact manner.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

From the "Cornsnake Manual" page 80.

"Many aspiring breeders have been warned to avoid inbreeding their captive herps if possible, but they don't really know why. The simplest explanation is that inbreeding (mating animals closely related to one another in their family ancestry) concentrates triats, good and bad, within family lines. This increases the likelihood that undesirable traits will show up after two carriers of those genes mate. Hiden recessive traits probably exist in many individuals, lurking in a heterozygous state. They'll tend to get paired with similar recessive genes in other Corns and be able to show themselves sooner when more potential mates in the vicinity also carry the gene. Traits that would be disadvantageous in the wild, such as the many mutations in corn snakes that affect skin colors and patterns, are harmless and even desirable in the safety of captivity. But undesirablr traits also show up, such as kinked spines or deformed scales or eyes. Breeders must select their stock carefully, culling out those animals with physical deformities and breeding only those specimens exhibiting solely the desireable and non-harmful traits."
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yes....but you have not line bred your Rat snake......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Maybe it was very inbred before I got it. It is after all a hypo. But why did outbreeding not fix the problem? I have one of his daughters that I bred with yet another WC male Yellow. I am very curious as to the results I will get!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

......almost word for word exactly what I mentioned far down in the posts below before they were brought up here..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

n
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I can see how your outside probe reads 80.8 when put inside the egg box, as that is typical to do, but how the heck does the inside temp read 94.7 just a foot or two away from the eggs..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think let me check.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

n
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

c'mon man!..LOL!

I can read it, it is a very tipical digital thermometer.

IN
OUT
HUMIDITY

No wonder you are always late for work!, you are looking at the temps instead..LOL!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But really it's time. Right now when I checked it said 9:10
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!!,..okay, yours has a time setting that mine doesn't have. It does look to be a bit more expensive than mine too..LOL!

Yeah, that made me laugh my ass-off as I was putting the post together and getting the funny pic to go along with it..LMAO!!

too funny man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

it is.....IN (inside dwelling at the box sensor)

out..(outside to your eggs)

and relative humidity at the bottom, just as my digital thermometer is..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think you can set it up differently. I set mine for time cause I'm usually in the snake room before I go to work and that's why I'm always late, lol. There is something strange going on here for sure Doug. I wish i knew.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

....take it from a different angle..
What has been the time in days between lay and hatch of these "kinked" clutches?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

but Didn't record that info. I'll have it this year if I get more kinks.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What I'm getting at is that if your 'glades are hatching at 40 days....they're most likely too hot and that's where you're getting the abnormalities.
Also, depending where in the timeline of development the "spikes" of temps are can determine the severity of those abnormalities.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

that's along the exact same lines of thinking I have been getting at here too the entire thread.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"that's along the exact same lines of thinking I have been getting at here too the entire thread."

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www.Bluerosy.com

.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

People are saving this picture? I am, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!, I think I could put it to good use on the milk forum quite often as well..LMAO!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't remember any abnormally long or short incubation periods. I would remember if they hatched that soon. But again why would just the Glades be effected and not the corns.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

NP

I'm sure egg thickness has something to do with temp absorbtion, which in FL is much more likely than a DOMINANT kink gene~~. Egg thickness has to do with calcium availability, I know many breeders suppliment calcium during ovulation to account for this. Individual variation aside, I'm sure some form of birth defects including a few kinked babies are related. Look at Boas though, inbreeding is more likely to produce 1 eyed snakes than kinks. Something you dont see often in colubrids. Bottom line, as much as we rail against inbreeding its very rare to have birth defects in colubrids. And thats inbreeding, I'd say its almost impossible for a wc x wc/cb pairing to produce dominant birth defects. IMHO. It has everything to do with your temperatures.

If it were temps which I keep a close watch on, then why doesn't it affect any other clutches?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Maybe it was like jeff said. Maybe there was a calcium deficency or maybe the snake has related calcium defiency problems that are genetic. Maybe it is the diet of teh snake or it lacked or requires a higher level of calcium in their meals.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I breed my own mice and that's what they all eat. No matter what we point at the question remains the same. Why just this snake and it's offspring?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"Why just this snake and it's offspring?"

all fun things that may never be known, or must be proven, or disproven.

You MUST start by getting a fresh clutch from this "kink master"..LOL!, and incubating at a cooler temp of 75 to 76.

Simple as that!

I know alot of this gets old to read, but this has to be done systematically, and precise, or it means absolutely nothing, and is just a waste of time.

I would start by at least lowering that clutch by a few degrees anyway, this might make some difference when they hatch, but the real proof in the pudding would be next time from the very beginning at these lower temps.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I have eggs from the Kink Masters daughter bred to a WC male. I also have eggs from non related Everglades. They all are recieving the same spikes and exact same conditions. So I think it would be significant if the Kink Master line has kinks again and the non related Glades hatch fine then, it all points back to the Kink Masters genes again!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Quite possible, but to actually "prove" this, you would still need to do at LEAST one test of the Kink Master's clutch at the lower temps we talked about. That would truly be the "ureka moment"

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You know I could put him to double clutch my Everglades but that won't work cause she's been with the good male for a while. Looks like next year.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah, next year should give you some hard, difinitive results by ruling that out or not.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"The eggs were incubated along with all my other eggs and some in the same box. So if it were a temp problem it should have affected my other eggs, but did not"

Okay, now THIS is were we get to the "meat" of the matter. At exactly WHAT temps are we talking about here? See, different types of snakes, definitely react totally differently when it comes to incubating temps. The fact that the others hatched with no problems really doesn't prove that the temps still were not too high for THAT particular clutch of THAT type of snake.

See what I mean?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's interesting!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I can't say without a doubt that temps didn't spike but on average the temps in that room are between 77 and 85.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

okay, and for most colubrid incubations, that is usually fine.

But what if 85 degrees was for some weird reason, a tad too high for THIS particular snakes offspring to hatch without these deformities?

Now, if you started from scratch at say...75 to 76 as I stated on another post on this thread, you could really be onto something.

Iam just suggesting a scenario that would really help out in disproving a heat-related problem here.

I will honestly say though, that I personally do not like to incubate stuff getting into the mid 80's and above, just for this very reason. Of course it is absolutely fine for many, but so is a bit cooler, and less things can go wrong. A few extra days is plenty cool with me, if it prevents any possible mishaps..LOL!

Just food for thought.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah 85 is higher than I like it. This is just the highest I saw it spike at any given time. It's usually around 80 to 82 and a drop at night.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

yeah, I figured that was the deal there.

I must go take a long break now and eat, my head hurts from all this..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sure,...that and lots of other things 'can", and will be inherited, but to know beyond a doubt as to what was the cause of something such as kinks takes a good many years to prove either way.

Also, to very accurately control these experiments can really become a big factor too.

Say you had all kinked babies for several years in a row. Was it truly genetic?, or could the temps have been a bit too high in all these scenario's?.

And at exactly what point temperature-wise did any noticable change occur(if any)?.

there is no doubt in my mind that kinks can easily be from a genetic inheritance, just like spinal bifida, dwarfism, diabetes, cancer or anything else.

All I know though with any plausability, is that most spinal kinks seem to be from temps being too high in incubation. I wonder why excessive heat makes the bones/vertebrae themselves grow abnormally??, and to a lesser degree, could easily be an inherited factor.

Now although this link I am posting is regarding Salmon, and not snakes, one can use their own good judgement to see a very plausable correlation here. I thought this was pretty interesting myself. And certainly there is probably much more on bone deformaties caused by higher temps elsewhere on the net too.
Link

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

there is no doubt in my mind that kinks can easily be from a genetic inheritance

Doug this is from a single animal that is outbred to unrelated stock. Have you ever heard of a trait being inhertible when bred to unrelated stock, besides a codom trait?

We know that codom traits effect pattern, color etc, but a kinked codom trait? Sounds kinky to me.
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www.Bluerosy.com

LOL!!, I know,.....a Co-dom trait for kinking sounds pretty silly. I really don't know what to think there, other than that kinking trait is very HELL-BENT on being expressed..LOL!

Or it could simply just "seem" this way, and excessive heat or other factors are actually to blame.

I didn't catch what Jorge's incubating temps were though on these three kinked clutches, did you?

If this kinking would still happen at say 75 or 76 degrees, as opposed to say in the mid 80's or higher, it would definitely get my attention..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Does Everglades rat snakes have any more propensity for kinking, than Corn snakes.This years results will be very interesting cause I have eggs from a pair of normal Glades that are unrelated to the kink master, lol. So if those turn out ok and the kink line still produce kinks than it will still point to the genetics of that line. IMO
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"So if those turn out ok and the kink line still produce kinks than it will still point to the genetics of that line"

Probably, but not necessarily. You would STILL have to incubate "kink master's" clutches at a much lower temp starting from scratch to see if this problem goes away, or still gives kinked offspring.

You may want to do a clutch from him next year at say 75 to 76 to prove this for sure.

It's the ONLY way to know with absolute certainty, otherwise, it is still just a likelihood as to what could have been the actual problem.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

have to try that next year. But I am still interested in what happens this year also.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"have to try that next year. But I am still interested in what happens this year also"

Of course, we all are, but virtually impossible to make a definite correlation until you RULE OUT temps being too high for THAT particular bloodline(from Kink Master)specifically. Never mind the other clutches of stuff not being affected.

As much as you and the other's would like to know for certain NOW, there isn't much way to get around it until this is done.

I wish I had pics of those "paper doll" fused together Hondo's that didn't hatch several years ago. Totally grotesque man!

However, the same pairing did have perfectly normal hatchlings in one or two clutches afterwards........weird!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I still belive if you bred him to something stronger like a hybrid ratsnake x king. That those babies would not come out kinked.

It will snap those kinks right out of his game. Temps or no temps. That is my gut feeling.

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www.Bluerosy.com

Twice I tried to beed him to a Bubble Gum Rat which is a Hybrid of sorts, but she re-absorbed the eggs.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Have you ever raised a kinked baby, especially the ones that are fine in every sense but a few small visible kinks? I've seen the kinks go away once the snakes were adults, or at least visibly go away. Something about the kink being a calcium deposit during incubation and much more visible in babies. The guess is that it could stem from nutritional needs not being met in the female, incubation conditions and/or a genetic predisposition to sensitivity to the above. Perhaps a change in diet from a wildcaught to captive conditions?

I believe some of the cornsnake breeders have really good info on this subject.
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Mark

imho no its not genetic so much as its many many environmental factors mtohers diet prior to laying, mothers overall condition how she was raised, humidity, temps, oxygen exchange, etc. i say try incu at cooler temps and see but if no change i wouldnt propagate that snakes offspring, i wouldnt breed it at all.
imho some just arent ment to breed.
good luck with your eggs,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I have kinda ruled out most of those with the exception of temps. But if it is temps then it only affected the eggs of this one Male Everglades. My personal feeling is that this is highly unlikely, but it is a possiblity. All my eggs were incubated exactly the same for the 3 years that these strange results occurred. Even when it's offspring were bred together, I got kinked snakes, but not from my other snakes.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra