Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I haven't had the chance to read through all of the replies under the other "Milk vs. Corn" thread, though I can imagine all of the fun stuff in there... So, if some of this stuff has already appeared down below, feel free to ignore this post!

Mitch is correct in pointing out the number of supralabials on the "mystery" snake. The head scutelation in that animal (3rd and 4th supralabials entering the ocular orbit) clearly suggests that the critter is a member of the species Lampropeltis triangulum, and not a member of Pantherophis guttatus (in which supralabials 4 and 5 enter the ocular orbit). As for some of the gross morphological charicters I mentioned being more identifiable and definitive in adult animals, I would concur, to a degree. However, cross-sectional body shape is consistant in both forms and remains true through the various life stages. As for head shape, when viewed from above, corns (even young ones) have considerably longer, more squared-off snouts than Lampropeltis triangulum.

Scale row counts differ between the taxa, too. Milks have 21-23 scale rows at mid-body (or 19, if you include elapsoides as part of triangulum). Corns, on the other hand, have 27-29 scale rows at mid-body. Scale shape and structure differ, too. Pantherophis guttatus has weakly keeled scales, even in young specimens (though it's harder to discern).

I would also like to point out that many (not all) captive corn morphs have genetic influence from other Lampropeltine Colubrids (=are hybrids), making them useless in comparative morphology for identification purposes since they really aren't Panterophis guttatus.

-Cole

L. t. triangulum

Thanks Cole, helpful post --

>>Mitch is correct in pointing out the number of supralabials on the "mystery" snake. The head scutelation in that animal (3rd and 4th supralabials entering the ocular orbit) clearly suggests that the critter is a member of the species Lampropeltis triangulum, and not a member of Pantherophis guttatus (in which supralabials 4 and 5 enter the ocular orbit).

This seems like a good way to quantify the hazy "nose is longer" qualitative description.

I didn't notice it before, but it IS possible to count the supralabials in the corn pic --

>>As for some of the gross morphological charicters I mentioned being more identifiable and definitive in adult animals, I would concur, to a degree. However, cross-sectional body shape is consistant in both forms and remains true through the various life stages.

But not always consistently noticeable in pics, as I demonstrated in an earlier post.

>>As for head shape, when viewed from above, corns (even young ones) have considerably longer, more squared-off snouts than Lampropeltis triangulum.

Unfortunately, we didn't have view-from-above pics to compare in this case.

>>Scale row counts differ between the taxa, too. Milks have 21-23 scale rows at mid-body (or 19, if you include elapsoides as part of triangulum). Corns, on the other hand, have 27-29 scale rows at mid-body.

That could be very helpful in some circumstances -- but not visible in the pics we had available.

>>Scale shape and structure differ, too. Pantherophis guttatus has weakly keeled scales, even in young specimens (though it's harder to discern).

Yup, we discussed this. However, this is also not necessarily visible in pics. Here's a pic I posted earlier to demonstrate. Do these scales look especially smooth, or weakly keeled?

Thanks again for the post!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The differences are so subtle, bigger eye here, thinner neck there. Things you cant learn in books but you know it when you see it. Milks are subterranean, corns semi-arboreal, body differences more obvious with age but obvious none the less.

Since this seems to be sort of a never-ending saga(but extremely entertaining though..LOL!), I would like to simply point ONE little thing out.

In this photo towards the far right, I have done a mid-body(within 1-2 inches) scale count on exactly HALF of the snake up to the center point of it's vertebrae. I have counted 11 scales there. Now doing some simple math here, I can conclude that this cannot be a cornsnake, and fits perfectly with the meristics of an Eastern milksnake.

Now, I knew it was an Eastern the second I laid eyes on it from the very beginning from looking at many of it's subtle, combined key features, but counting 11 scales at mid-body really leaves only one conclusion here.

I don't think there is a known corn morph for "micropholis"(few scales)..

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>> In this photo towards the far right, I have done a mid-body(within 1-2 inches) scale count on exactly HALF of the snake up to the center point of it's vertebrae. I have counted 11 scales there. Now doing some simple math here, I can conclude that this cannot be a cornsnake, and fits perfectly with the meristics of an Eastern milksnake.

When we were taking radiology courses and other training, we referred to something known as "radiographic imagination". It involved "perceiving" details on radiographs that we could convince ourselves we were seeing, even though they weren't really objectively visible on the rads....

In the case of this snake, IMHO the supralabial count and positioning are the most clear and objective pieces of info we've gotten so far. The anal plate would be also, if we had a pic of it. You may be confident of your mid-body scale count as well, and no doubt I should have given such counts more consideration in my earlier post -- but I personally can't convince myself that we're getting a good count there. OTOH, it would be hard to miss enough scales to get into corn snake range, wouldn't it......okay, let's say this: supralabial count and positioning if you have a clear face shot; mid-body count if you have a clear mid-body shot; anal plate if you have a good ventral shot. Sound good?

Very educational discussion, guys. Thanks!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"but I personally can't convince myself that we're getting a good count there"

From the pics posted, sure, it wouldn't be definitive enough to win a case in court on that alone, but with all the scale counting experience I have had over the years, there is still no way I could be that far off in error of their being 11 scales on one side.

Cole counted the exact same in his other post as well, and he has done this many countless times over the years too, and also has a knack for doing this.

To be honest, even if we were BOTH off on any scale counting, we could not be that grossly off for it to to be a corn meristic-wise, it just isn't possible.

I guess until the girl cuts a cross-section of shed to post here, that has been cut down the belly with scissors, and laid flat with tiny arrows depicting each one, all this stuff could always be argued until that happens...

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>To be honest, even if we were BOTH off on any scale counting, we could not be that grossly off for it to to be a corn meristic-wise, it just isn't possible.

I agree with you.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"I agree with you"

I feel as though I have just one the highest achievment award known to man..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

:-P
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

....but sadly, no award for my two misspelled typo's!..LMAO!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sure thing!

I didn't notice it before, but it IS possible to count the supralabials in the corn pic --

True. However, the cropped photo you posted cuts off at least one of the corn's supralabials. The photo does show, though, which supralabials enter the ocular orbit. That's the important part!

Unfortunately, we didn't have view-from-above pics to compare in this case.

True, again. But we did get a number of good dorso-lateral views that provided nearly as helpful a look.

That could be very helpful in some circumstances -- but not visible in the pics we had available.

Sure it is! Here's how: The number of scale rows at mid-body can be determined by counting to the mid-dorsal scale row, multiplying that number by two, and subtracting one. I come up with 21 scale rows on the "questionable" animal.

However, this is also not necessarily visible in pics. Here's a pic I posted earlier to demonstrate. Do these scales look especially smooth, or weakly keeled?

Well, not in that photo. Some of the others that were posted had enough detail to determine that they were smooth with a high degree of certainty.

Hope this helps
-Cole

Cole I have to thank you for your help to all of us here. You keep all this on a scientific level.You provide facts and details no one else bothers to do.
Here is a few pics of a Ltt that does not need a scale count

She layed 12 eggs last year.

and one of her boyfriend

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

For continually posting such fan-friggin'-tastic animals for us all to enjoy! Don't think it goes unnoticed!

-Cole

Man!,...that is one AWESOME looking cornsnake you posted there Cole!!..

....In addition to your thorough coverage of some very key meristical points, I would also point out some other mid-body scale count variables with some of the other milk subspecies too, but no real need here.

No need to "toot" my own horn here when other's here are doing such a fine job of it..LMAO!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks, broseph! I know you could get heavy into the scale counts, man!

-Cole

LOL!,.... yeah Cole, you know the deal with some of that Latin American stuff that has to be looked at with a very keen eye now and then..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

What's the story behind the polyzona X abnorma intergrade photo on your site?! I dig it... E-mail with details, please!

-Cole

what I think is crazy is simply that some people have to resort to looking at all of these things in order to ID a snake... now I can understand if you are having trouble with subspecies... or even species within the same genus... but these are two entirely different genera!!! It just blows my mind! I guess not everyone has keen eye for details... when I am out in the field looking for herps one thing I have learned to do quickly (within 1-2 seconds) is ID a snake based on what it looks like and if it is zipping through the grass at lighting speed, how it's moving. Because you have to master IDing snakes quickly to fully experience herping... I picked that up rather quickly. Otherwise, by the time you are done processing and trying to figure out what species you are looking at, it is GONE!!! This happened to my boyfriend while we were herping Sunday. He is getting great at herping but a large female eastern garter snake whizzing through tall grass had him second guessing. Eventually we were able to flush her out again and I pounced on her, photographed her, and set her free. I guess what I am trying to say is that, if you are one of those OCD people that pays attention to every little detail (me) then you tend to pick up things that are not obvious and never will be to other people... things that you can't really put into words. You just know!

>>You just know!

Ahh, but "you just know" doesn't cut it when trying to convince other people of what you saw, or caught, or diagnosed. That's one reason why you (generic "you" need to know the concrete morphologic keys as well.

Years ago I got to be a pretty good birder. Now, you talk about FAST -- you've got to know the "gestalt" of the bird in order to catch an ID before it's gone. BUT you also have to know the specific details that differentiate each species. And there are a lot more NA bird species than snake species! Heck, there's only 32 species of snake native to my whole state (TN) -- but **381** bird species have been found here. Details matter!

Anyway -- despite the bushwah injected into this discussion by one or two, these threads have been very educational for me. I appreciate the patience of those who did choose to participate constructively!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Ahh, but "you just know" doesn't cut it when trying to convince other people of what you saw, or caught, or diagnosed. That's one reason why you (generic "you" need to know the concrete morphologic keys as well.

I can agree with that, to an extent, don't get me wrong you don't just always take anybody's word. but at the same time... it DOES cut it, at least to the people who have an idea of who I am, and that I'm not a total moron. Which is a surprisingly large amount of people given that I am a heavy forum poster. I can't tell you how many times at each show random people come up to me and can tell me my own name and that they are a fan of my photo's. And I of course fee like an idiot because I have NO idea who these people are. To all of those people, my word, and the fact that I just know, is enough... because let's face it... I am not going to accidentally mix up a milk and a corn... it's just not going to happen. There are lots of people who would/could... but I could not. For those naysayers out there, that's what the pics are for! I put them out there for all to see, in detail, so that there is positively no gray area.

>>I can agree with that, to an extent, don't get me wrong you don't just always take anybody's word. but at the same time... it DOES cut it, at least to the people who have an idea of who I am, and that I'm not a total moron.

IMHO you have taken this whole discussion too personally. It's not about whether you are or are not a moron. I'm personally quite sure that you're not. It's about how to compare one photo to another photo and distinguish them through reliable anatomical diagnostic features.

Don't look at it as a personal attack. It isn't. Look at it instead as an objective diagnostic challenge.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

IMHO you should spend less time arguing systematics and meristics(to which you know little)and more time in the field looking for and finding critters to study. Your minimal growth here comes at a cost to the whole forum. Someone had to say it. And for once, please just accept this and not have to have the final word. If you scan down every thread YOU have the last word, right or wrong, every time. To me this is telling, and I love to argue. You dont win an arguement by being the last one standing.

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

LMAO!!,..I have used this EXACT photo before for FR a long while back.

I think my caption was...."the great and powerful "pioneer" has spoken!"

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LOL!! :-D
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>IMHO you should spend less time arguing systematics and meristics(to which you know little)and more time in the field looking for and finding critters to study.

LOL!!!

Jeff, if you don't like my conversational style then don't converse with me. It's really very simple. Nobody is forcing you to respond to any of my posts. As for getting off the computer, as it happens I just got back home from seeing "Eugene Onegin" (that's an opera, btw) in Nashville this evening. How about you??

As for field time, I love to spend time in the field. My own fields, to be more precise. Unfortunately, there are just not enough hours in the day to pursue each and every interesting subject out there. Fortunately, there ARE helpful people in the world (present company excepted) who are willing to help educate those of us who might have an interest in certain subjects even when we don't have the opportunity to turn over every rock in the world. My thanks to those helpful folks out there. That willingness to share info is in the true spirit of forums like kingsnake.com .
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL...Jeff seems to insert himself into every thread and logs WAY too much computer time to tell ANYBODY anything about field herping. Maybe he ran a computer cable to "Monster Island", LOL!!!
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

"Maybe he ran a computer cable to "Monster Island"

LMAO!!.....man, that had me laughing my A$$ OFF!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LOL, thanks, Jeff gives us all ammunition for a chuckle.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel Sinaloan
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Shannon, I think amazondoc got beat up pretty good with defenses to your post. Still, he has posted comments of merit. I live in southeast Louisiana. We have no eastern milks. I would see an animal like the one you posted and think amel corn/texas rat/maybe prairie king on the fly and grab "knowing" not a copper head, coral, or cottonmouth. My on the fly ID would give me confidence to grab quickly, but I would have to ponder over scalation, etc, to ID correctly once in hand to be honest. As an example, while working at the coast of Louisiana a few years ago, I spied a huge "garter" crossing a shell road leading to our lodging station. Needless to say this "garter" looked funny upon closer inspection. The hot snake flag didnt go up, but something told me my initial garter ID was flawed. It was a gulf coast marsh water snake. It happens!!!

AMEN!

People that are"Looking at all the little things " and questioning others is a good thing. I like people that ask a lot of questions and don't follow the pack.
If we were to believe that ringneck snakes and slugs are poisonous
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1827423,1827423
because one guy says they are and his only proof is that him and his buddy both had milk snakes die after eating them would be foolish.Same with your pink milk snake.I want more info then he says she says.I havent"mastered IDing" like you and jeff.
The same is true with a snake I posted here a few weeks ago
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1825924,1825924
Jeff was right to question this snake.I didnt find it so I don't really know for sure. It was a gift but I wasn't going to look a gift horse......
I for one take anything I read here with a grain of salt.
Im glad amazondoc asks questions and Im glad we have Cole here to answer them

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

People that are"Looking at all the little things " and questioning others is a good thing. I like people that ask a lot of questions and don't follow the pack.

Doug, everyone likes people like this...

If we were to believe that ringneck snakes and slugs are poisonous
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1827423,1827423
because one guy says they are and his only proof is that him and his buddy both had milk snakes die after eating them would be foolish.

Doug, fool, they are toxic minimally, maybe poisonous was the wrong word. ALOT of milksnake guys have come to this conclusion due to finding them with milks under the same cover...something you dont find if they are on the menu. Is the evidence anecdotal? Sure, til someone pays me or someone else to study it. Proof? Do you have to get hit by a car to learn when not to cross the street??

Same with your pink milk snake.I want more info then he says she says.I havent"mastered IDing" like you and jeff.
The same is true with a snake I posted here a few weeks ago
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1825924,1825924
Jeff was right to question this snake.I didnt find it so I don't really know for sure. It was a gift but I wasn't going to look a gift horse......

Doug, the reason why I questioned it wasnt because I thought it was something else, its because I KNOW alot about size/pattern/integradation throughout its range and your snake didnt fit the puzzle as I know it. Outlying populations are now super rare, fitting that snake into how I understand subtle differences means alot to me. And this is always the heart of the "locality" arguement.

I for one take anything I read here with a grain of salt.
Im glad amazondoc asks questions and Im glad we have Cole here to answer them

Doug, I'm glad anyone asks intelligent questions. There just arent as many of them as there are "when do I feed my snake". I am not oblivious to the learning curve that comes with knowledge. Any 12 year old can come online and put PHD in their name and pretend to be something they arent, thats the nature of the internet. Grains of salt? So what if I say "sand the floor" or "paint the fence" or "wax on/wax off", it worked for the Karate Kid right? Dont give anyone a fish, TEACH them to fish....

teach them to shop....again...faster and cheaper...?...

sorry...I' going man I'm going.....

......>>>>exit , stage right....>>>>
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...one of the CraZieS...?...

........JY.......