Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've noticed some of the hybrids on here have long spikes, but not all. Kismet is supposed to be a hybrid between C. nubila, C. nubila caymanesis and C. lewisi. She will turn 8 years old in October. She has very short spikes and I've seen this on some other hybrids as well. Tom has a post of one his breeding girls (and if Tom is using her for breeding she must have a high percentage of lewisi) with short spikes, but Yakob's female has long spikes and I saw a pic of Melissa Kaplan's adult male and he has short spikes. So, since it's not a gender thing, from which Cyclura does that characteristic come, or it is just a result of mixed breeding?

Thanks. Even after six years of having Kismet, I'm still so uneducated about all of this.

I think it all has to do with age and probably variance between different animals. Cubans, Caymanensis and lewisi all have long spines in both male and female animal's. There for I would say it's just difference between animals.

Also, Not to know Tom's female. But I don't think that animal is high percentage. Here spines aren't even blue and like I have said in a prior post. I (personally) have never seen a hybrid with blue spines that was less than 80% lewisi. I think it holds pretty true also. I think blue spines(sll the way past the base of the tail)makes it a lewisi hybrid. No blue spines and its just a hybrid. Not trying to knock anyone's animal's, just my opinion. Also, I think if you only show Tom's females head with no body you would say it is a cuban.

Can't they turn the blue on and off? My old iguana did have blue spikes all the way to the base of the tail most of the time.

I think its funny how people throw around percentages. blue spines means 80%? how far down the spine? what constitutes 50% or 97.6%? without dna you have no idea the % or the species mix in the hybrid. Also female lewisi do not normally have the longer head the males have, on top of that its also age related. I respect your opinion but
dont agree.

jf

JF,

Several people have said it's age related, but if so, shouldn't she, by almost 8 years old, have longer spines? I'm also concerned that she is relatively small. Her bloodwork and everything came out healthy, but maybe she's relatively small because she uses so much of her energy laying infertil eggs every other year? At almost 8 she is only about 18 inches snout to vent and 33 inches snout to tail.

I shied away from your spine question cuz I just dont have enough info to have a decent opinion. Too many variables from genetics to species to husbandry. I have seen what we would consider small females that are great producers. I friend of mine has an electric blue hybrid and he is double digits in age and tiny. like the size mine was at 6-8 yrs old. who knows.your's looks healthy and is very pretty. Maybe spines are like body parts on people.. I will go no further if ya know what I mean.

jf

ROFL. Ohmigosh. I'd not thought of that, but it's hilarious. It reminds me of the old show, "Dinosaurs" where Charlene was hitting puberty and upset because her tail hadn't grown in yet. She was wearing a false tail and got in trouble...

Too funny.

We went to the vet yesterday for an x-ray because I thought she had eggs, but we couldn't find any on the x-ray. Since when she has laid it's always been in July I'm guessing she either never had any or she's reabsorbing(which would be great because I hate that she's wasted so much energy on infertile eggs in the past. Anyway, the vet also told me to quit worrying because she is beautiful and healthy. He does love when I bring her in though since mostly when he gets to see lizards they are already on the brink of death.

The whole idea of throwing around the percent thing is rediculas. I would bet few if anyone realy know the percent of there animals. DNA testing only tells you cross or not and what is in the cross. not the percentage. You can't even get an 80% cross.
Say the first pair was a pure and a cuban or a caymaninsis they would be 50% and you could breed them for ever and only have 50%. If you bred a baby back to the pure it would be a 75%. and if you bred a baby from them to a pure it would be an 87.5% so it would take 3 generations of breeding in a pure to get over 80%. So where are all these pures to add in all this pure gene and why did no one ever breed 2 pures together and who has them now because they live a long time. I am sure there are a some pures (maby unknown to the owner) out there but without DNA testing no one would really know and no one is getting theres tested and few people breed back to the parents. What most people do is if it is pretty blue and shows some stronger trates they say this is a high persentage. Most are probobly not more than 75% because that is breeding a pure to a cross and you could breed 75%'s all your life and unless you introduce a pure or maby an 87.5 you are only going to have 75%. 75% to 87.5% = 81.25% and no one knows the history of there animals that well.
Rob

>>The whole idea of throwing around the percent thing is rediculas. I would bet few if anyone realy know the percent of there animals. DNA testing only tells you cross or not and what is in the cross. not the percentage. You can't even get an 80% cross.
>>Say the first pair was a pure and a cuban or a caymaninsis they would be 50% and you could breed them for ever and only have 50%. If you bred a baby back to the pure it would be a 75%. and if you bred a baby from them to a pure it would be an 87.5% so it would take 3 generations of breeding in a pure to get over 80%. So where are all these pures to add in all this pure gene and why did no one ever breed 2 pures together and who has them now because they live a long time. I am sure there are a some pures (maby unknown to the owner) out there but without DNA testing no one would really know and no one is getting theres tested and few people breed back to the parents. What most people do is if it is pretty blue and shows some stronger trates they say this is a high persentage. Most are probobly not more than 75% because that is breeding a pure to a cross and you could breed 75%'s all your life and unless you introduce a pure or maby an 87.5 you are only going to have 75%. 75% to 87.5% = 81.25% and no one knows the history of there animals that well.
>>Rob

Someone is florida has two pure animals. there working on there 5th generation......that means there at 93.75%.

>>I think its funny how people throw around percentages. blue spines means 80%? how far down the spine? what constitutes 50% or 97.6%? without dna you have no idea the % or the species mix in the hybrid. Also female lewisi do not normally have the longer head the males have, on top of that its also age related. I respect your opinion but
>>dont agree.
>>
>>jf

Well there is currently somebody that has two pure males that has bred females back to the males and he is on the 4th generation going for the 5th! According to this person, his 75% animal's did not have blue spines pass the base of the tail. This is were this data is from......

and your friends females were pure? sure? how do they know? It may be so and your friend is legit. I want to see proof if you are throwing around numbers. I'm a skeptic because anyone can say anything.
Next topic should be size. everyone has a 20 lb plus cyclura and their green ig is 6'
right,

jf

it a good thread though

Yakob, I'm confused about something. Please don't take this as a challenge. It's not. It's a genuine question that I want your opinion on but with this kind of conversation you don't really get tone of voice, etc. so I want to qualify my question. Anyway, what about the fact that some of the pure lewisi in the pictures don't always show blue spines? Also, what about the fact that according to that book they can turn the blue off an on at will? They talk about the females often looking gray rather than blue to blend with their environment, often only letting their heads show blue. As I said in that other thread, the other day when Kismet escaped her enclosure and was basking proudly in the rose garden, she was blazingly blue, including her spikes. I didn't know she could do that because she doesn't normally show much blue.

Also, I didn't think Tom bred anything but high percent lewisi. Am I mistaken on that?

Again, I'm not challenging your ideas about the blue spines, only trying to figure everything out. Are you saying your girl has blue spines all the time?

>>Yakob, I'm confused about something. Please don't take this as a challenge. It's not. It's a genuine question that I want your opinion on but with this kind of conversation you don't really get tone of voice, etc. so I want to qualify my question. Anyway, what about the fact that some of the pure lewisi in the pictures don't always show blue spines? Also, what about the fact that according to that book they can turn the blue off an on at will? They talk about the females often looking gray rather than blue to blend with their environment, often only letting their heads show blue. As I said in that other thread, the other day when Kismet escaped her enclosure and was basking proudly in the rose garden, she was blazingly blue, including her spikes. I didn't know she could do that because she doesn't normally show much blue.
>>
>>Also, I didn't think Tom bred anything but high percent lewisi. Am I mistaken on that?
>>
>>Again, I'm not challenging your ideas about the blue spines, only trying to figure everything out. Are you saying your girl has blue spines all the time?

Yes, her spines are blue all the time. In the morning there are a darker shade, but they are always blue. As far as the rest of her body, yes some days she very blue other days it might be mostly her head and neck. No offense taken.

Regarding Tom's animal's. I feel his male is a top quality hybrid. But, his female in my opinion is mostly cuban.

What do you think about the animals ability to turn the blue off and on at will?

>>What do you think about the animals ability to turn the blue off and on at will?

Completly true as far as I know. I have a hard time thinking so pertaining to there spines though. I might be wrong, but if you look at pure pictures, there spines are always blue no matter what.

Not from what I've seen, including some of the pictures in The Little Blue Book -- and I know those are pure. Interesting.

Actually the female is a lewisi x with n. caymanensis.....Many caymanensis have a lot of blue on their body and head as well...thanks...I agree she's not as good as the male BUT some of her siblings were magnificent. I'm actually excited about this pairing because you can produce something REALLY NICE if the genetics are there sometimes without one of the parents showing it. This female has a LOT of blue on the body and is only about 4 years old so she will continue to improve in color as she grows......thanks....If the lewisi I placed on loan with several Zoo's weren't dead this conversation would be moot....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Yakob, I'm confused about something. Please don't take this as a challenge. It's not. It's a genuine question that I want your opinion on but with this kind of conversation you don't really get tone of voice, etc. so I want to qualify my question. Anyway, what about the fact that some of the pure lewisi in the pictures don't always show blue spines? Also, what about the fact that according to that book they can turn the blue off an on at will? They talk about the females often looking gray rather than blue to blend with their environment, often only letting their heads show blue. As I said in that other thread, the other day when Kismet escaped her enclosure and was basking proudly in the rose garden, she was blazingly blue, including her spikes. I didn't know she could do that because she doesn't normally show much blue.
>>
>>Also, I didn't think Tom bred anything but high percent lewisi. Am I mistaken on that?
>>
>>Again, I'm not challenging your ideas about the blue spines, only trying to figure everything out. Are you saying your girl has blue spines all the time?

Really,

Here is a pic of her in the morning warming up. Still has blue spines

Where did she come from? She looks strikingly similar to my male in your picture.

Here is a crappy cell phone picture of him in the tub... It would be better if I had a profile pic of him but I don't have one on hand at this moment.

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Bri

We adopted her from the Louisiana Gulf Coast Herp Society a little over six years ago and, yes, she does resemble Marley quite a bit. She's not quite as blue as Marley though.

We did get some of her history. We know she is out of Blair stock, clutch LC 102, hatched October 2, 1002.

Oh, sorry I was referring to Yakob's female. Kismet has the most unique look of all the hybrids I have seen. She has such striking patterns and awesome color combos! I think she's beautiful and I personally think her short spikes are adorable. I've seen lots of hybrids with the blue and most, like Marley, have fairly muted markings and not too much color variation over their bodies. Yours girl has lots of color and character, and on top of that she looks so sweet and docile. Whoever gave her up it's their loss and you are so lucky to have her, and it looks like she lives the good life too!
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Bri

I've owned and seen quite a few pure lewisi and like with everything else including us there's a lot of variation in them. When they wake up the color is NOT even blue in some cases. Some have spines longer that others but females spikes are generally shorter. Even the face shape is variable. Having said this there is NO rule of thumb except for DNA to know how pure your lizard is. Even then it wouldn't show a percentage....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Just out of curiosity, what exactly would DNA show?

DNA testing shows cross or pure and what is in the cross ie. cuban x lewisi or cayman x lwaisi or cuban x cayman x lewisi.
but not how much of each.
Rob

>>DNA testing shows cross or pure and what is in the cross ie. cuban x lewisi or cayman x lwaisi or cuban x cayman x lewisi.
>>but not how much of each.
>>Rob

And you are right Rob. Lots of people had animals tested in the early 90's. A few of those people did end up with pures and some hybrids. considering that the amimals tested all came from Life Fellowship they were only cayxlew crosses. Breed females back to pure males and you end up with 87.5% like a couple of people have.

If you breed the crosses from life fellowship to a pure you only get a 75% because they were only 50% unless they were bred back to a pure.
I believe almost every tested pure in the pet trade was sent to GC for there breeding program many people did not get theres tested so there are most likely some pures out there but not documented.
So this guy has bred 5 generations back to the pure males???
He is in florida? Where does he sell all his babys? I want some if he has some DNA tested pures and all these babys from them.
Rob

>>If you breed the crosses from life fellowship to a pure you only get a 75% because they were only 50% unless they were bred back to a pure.
>>I believe almost every tested pure in the pet trade was sent to GC for there breeding program many people did not get theres tested so there are most likely some pures out there but not documented.
>>So this guy has bred 5 generations back to the pure males???
>>He is in florida? Where does he sell all his babys? I want some if he has some DNA tested pures and all these babys from them.
>>Rob

Yep, I guess he is working on the 4th generation, not the 5th(my bad). All the second(87.5%) generations have been sold. 3rd(93.75%) generations are not going anywhere unless there is a 4th generation.

So, who is he, Yakob?

>>So, who is he, Yakob?

Mike Tyson

The breeder in Florida with pure lewisi is Bob Ehrig. Why are people so weird on this forum?

I was wrong, I guess it's not Ehrig.

Is Ehrig ever on this forum? i want to see how his hybrids look like,.. ???

Well, I don't know about this guy or I would have bought some from him but it's good to know...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

It would show what the hybrid was a mixture of say lewisi x n. nubila or lewisi x n. caymanensis etc. It would prove relationships between types of Cyclura mixed...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I agree with TOM!
Genetics is TOO COMPLICATED..to talk about.. yes on highschool textbooks you will get 75% when crossing 50 with 100%.. this is far from being true.. there are different types of gens and reactions.. not only dominant resessive or intemedietetc.. there are dorment, active or turned of.. depending on a lot of other thing.. We are all breeding for looks.. in humans for example the gens controling OUR LOOKS are only 0,0025% of OUR ENTIRE GENOME im iranian living in sweden and i have relatives that look 100%swedish but are 100% Persian.. and i know sweds that are 100% swedish and they look 100%Persian..this is dorment gens that pop up now and then because both Populations come from the same indoeuropean line separated by some 10'000years changed by natural selection etc.. southern sunny countries have more people with dark skin..its that simple.. so in theory you can have a cuban looking animal that is 99% "PURE" or you can take 100% PURE LEWISI and breed them and sooner or later you will have some that look like caymanensis or cubans.. but they still can produce 100%pure blue lewisi.. as for the spines its just variation and Age and maybe foods like protein..or all of them in combination. And all types of humans and cycluras have there own charm (though i prefer the lizards LOL
(SORRY FOR MY CRAPY SPELLING its my 3´d language)

Thanks to everyone for answering. I appreciate it, even if I don't know much more than I knew before.

But, back to the length of the spikes, as opposed to the color (which on Kismet are sometimes, but not often, blue), here is the question I think got lost in the posts.

At almost 8 years old, should Kismet have longer spikes? Someone said something about diet and protein? Can you elaborate?

It isn't that I want her spikes to be longer, btw. Mainly I want to know if her short spikes and relatively small size at the age of 7 years and 9 months is related to husbandry mistakes on my part. When I first got Kismet I couldn't find much information and all of her early husbandry was been based on the information for Greens.

I said protein because as you all know protein makes turtle/turtois shells more bumpy heavy and sometimes looking like they have spikes.. just a thought.. its the same material as hair and nails = KETEIN(dont know how to spell it) is an amino-acid(buildingblocks of proteins)
So its possible it can differ a lot with diet..
Cheers

Your lizard does have small spikes to be that old but otherwise looks in great shape. All lizards of any species have variability in looks [spikes, color, head shape, etc]so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks . As I've mentioned in the past, I do have a tendency to worry and fret. I got even worse when my green died suddenly and with no warning this winter. It was the freakiest thing. He looked fine, ate fine, took a bath and went to bed and he died in his sleep. He was only 8 years old so it was just bizarre. I considered a necropsy, but really couldn't afford it. I just brought Kismet in for a fecal and such to make sure there weren't parasites or something I missed.

Losing Mayan was hard, but if something happened to Kismet it would be even worse.

Thanks Tom! That is very helpful!

Amen! All this percentage and purity talk is making my head spin. I understand how the blue coloring is highly desirable but, as mentioned before, seems to vary between individuals and can be unpredictable. I understand that breeders are trying to breed animals with high amounts of blue so are looking for the specimens most likely to pass on their colors. But shouldn't most of us just be happy to be blessed with a unique lizard that is healthy and has it's very own one-of-a-kind personality?
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Bri

Amen, Bri. I wouldn't trade Kismet for the bluest ig on the planet.

I've had a female Lewisi X with short spikes and one the same age with longer spikes. I agree with Tom that like us they are all different. Personally, I like the short spikes- I think they look tidier and even cute on the females.

BTW, my short-spiked female was from David Blair, from Mr. & Mrs. Blue. And... does Kismet have painted nails?

Kismet is one of Blair's, but I don't know which of his were her parents. I know she was out of clutch LC102 on 10/2/02 but Mr. Blair never answered my emails about her parentage since I'm not her original keeper.

And yes, my daughter paints Kismet's nails with dog nail polish fairly frequently. Kismet also tolerates being dressed up in t-shirts when she goes to visit school children. It breaks the ice and makes the kids (and moreso the teachers) less likely to be afraid of her. Fascinates me how many people are afraid of lizards.

Here are a few pics. One is with my daughter at an event and the other two are right before taking Kismet out to an event.

That's pretty adorable. Reminds me of how I used to pamper my first green, Princess. And yeah it seems most people are wary or scared of reptiles, but it is also pretty cool how they can change their opinion when they are introduced to a big layed back lizard like Kismet or Marley. I don't take Marley to herp shows but he has changed many friend, family, and roommate's perspectives over the years!
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Bri

She is the cutest thing ever LOL