Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What are you supposed to do with kinked babies? I'm trying to hatch out my first clutch now and I am sure that I will have a clutch some day with kinks.I have been told by some that you flush them, by others you give them away, and also that "It happens and most likely won't pass on to future offspring. I saw some gray bands this week for sale with kinks. Is this ok or is it something frowned upon by the rest of you? I assure you that I am not judging anyone for their choices. I'm just not sure what is the right way to deal with it.

What are you supposed to do with kinked babies?

Do you or a friend have a coral snake, or perhaps a cobra?
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I freeze them. I don't sell many alterna but anything with my name attached will not be less than perfect.

Any ophiopage will do the trick, I have getula and an eastern indigo that take care of the culling process from slugs to d.i.e. to deformities.
-----
Todd Hughes

I have heard debates that kinks in hatchlings can be caused by the following:

1 - Diet or other environmental factors of the female.

2 - Incubation issues (temps / oxygen exchange / moisture).

3 - And some say it is genetic....

I put my vote on environmental factors for most all kinked babies with a combination of #1 & #2 above. However, when you do have a visible defect you never know what else is wrong inside that hatchling, and this is not just for kinks, but can also be scales (I have seen bellies that look like a zipper before and think that is worse than a kink) and color or pattern in my opinion. You hear so often that the most "interesting" offspring just died or never thrived for some reason, and it may be this type of thing where some internal issue was more than the hatchling could overcome in order to thrive.

Me, anything that is imperfect yet thriving might be given away or just kept. They can still make a good pet for somebody that wants them. And as a side note, it has been brought up before, but I have seen a number of wild animals taken that have kinks or other defects, now this could be a healed trauma or it could be from birth, who knows, but it happens to at least some degree out in the wild as well and I have seen all ages with kinks at some time or another over the years.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

1. Get outdoors and go fishing... Bass really love these little guys - especially the brightly colored ones!

2. Send them to me for our Coral snake...

3. Paint some triple alternating speckles on the neck and sell them as Huecos!

Hopefully, there will be none with kinks so this conversation is a moot point...

Good luck!

Happy herpin'...

MP

Just what you think leads to kinked hatclings.... I would like to some input from a few people on that. My vote is that most of it lies between incubation issues and diet... Not so much genetic defects.

I would really love to see some real studies on this, and know that some people are doing much on their own to see about my two concerns, but they tend to keep the data in closed circles.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Incubation at room temps, although there is fluctuation with all the light bulbs in the room. I'd say 16 hrs at 77F, then a gradual warmup to 85F. Consistently HIGH female though - meaning I'm lucky if I score a male in a clutch...

Robert

I am pretty sure that most reptiles including kingsnakes are sexed genetically not by incubation temps. If I remember right they are ZZ male and ZW female unlike mammals that are XY male and XX female.

Did a quick search and found this article.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I think you are definately on the right track my young, rotund Padawan. LOL!
I am with you, I think that it has more to do with dietary discrepencies with the female as well as incubation issues (air exchange, amount of moisture, temps, etc.)
I incubate my eggs the same way (at room temperatures) that Robert just described below, except my room only reaches a high of about 81-82 degrees, and many nights drops into the high 60's. It takes a little longer for the eggs to hatch (not just alterna, but getula, mexicana, subocularis, etc.), but typically, they are robust and healthy, without kinks.
I have also observed when there is too much moisture, the neonates are unable to penetrate the egg shells to hatch. It is almost like the egg walls become too "rubbery" to be cut through easily.
Anyway, is that a good enough answer my little Padawan learner?
LOL!

Happy herpin'...

MP

I also think too many people cook their eggs to fast and there is a tendency to get things too wet and not let enough air exchange. I also see the hardship of offering a varied diet to our adults as lab mice are the cheap and easy meal, and we work hard to more or less train them to eat these un-natural prey items.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Lance, Out of the 90 or so alterna I have seen in the wild, I DID find 1 15" female dark blairs in 1998, about 6 miles West of Langtry that was kinked about 2/3 of its body length & it was obvious the minute the snake was handled off the cut. I had always wondered if any wild alterna ever where born with kinks like many cb babies are & that seemed to answer that question. It does happen in the wild, but rarely. Their natural diet of mostly lizards & some rodents probably plays a role in wc alterna having few to no kinks, but even the way the eggs are incubated I think can have a real effect on kinking as well, though thats my own opinion from using different substrates in different incubator setups over the years. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has found wc alterna with kinks, I am sure they have......J.F.

ha......

If the kinks are small and they are otherwise healthy I keep them and raise them. Sometimes the kinks go away completly within about 1 to 2 years. Sometimes they reduce to the point they are no longer visible but you can still feel them. Other times they are reduced after 1 or 2 years but they are still slightly visible. Results vary but in every one that I have kept there was at least some reduction over time and with giving 1 drop of liquid calcium every 3 to 4 feedings.

I was given a hatchling female greeri once that was badly kinked. It couldn't even crawl right. They guy who gave it to me said it hatched normal and developed the kinks soon after hatching. Malnutrition was suspected since it hadn't eaten.
I force fed it catfood for about 1 year and every 3 or 4 feedings I would mix in 1 drop of liquid calcium. After 1 year it began to eat pinks on it's own and there had already been major kink reduction. At 5 years of age it was completly kink free, you couldn't even feel them and it laid a perfect 100% fertile clutch and none the babies were kinked.

I believe the rarity of the locale of the alterna probably has a play in the decision. I doubt that any of you bass fishermen or getulus and cobra keepers would get rid of a true Hueco or other rare locale just because of a few kinks. Most kinks are more than likely environmental or nutritional. As stated above many hatchlings with kinks grow out of them (or reduce) with proper care. We keep hatchlings with heriditary defects (ie, albinism, two heads, scaleless, and so on)that the animal probably would not survive the wild, so why not give the poor critter a chance. After all if you did not have the animals in your collections and more than likely cause the kinking, they would not be in the unique situation to be fish bait or other snake food. Just my humble opinion.

To answer J. F. above, I have fount two alterna with kinks. One was with multiple kinks on the tail only. The other was a yearling that had a 45 degree angle kink 1 1/2 inch behind the head. Thought maybe that one might have been an injury but no visible marks and snake was adjusted to living with it. By the way it laid eggs and had no offspring with a kink behind the head.

ECTimaeus

ha.....well played....you forgot hypomelanism....ghost....etc....get that email????.....this guy may be kinky.....but he ain't kinked

Thanks. Yessir I got the pics. Need to send them to the appropriate authorities. By the way, as old as DV is getting, I doubt he can still be kinky.

ECT wrote: "I doubt that any of you bass fishermen or getulus and cobra keepers would get rid of a true Hueco or other rare locale just because of a few kinks."

WANNA BET??

ECT wrote: "We keep hatchlings with heriditary defects (ie, albinism, two heads, scaleless, and so on)"

Big difference between an albino and a deformed spinal alignment. When was the last time you saw an ad on KCOM for a BLACK GAP - HET FOR KINKED SPINE? LOL! That's all we need, fuel for the fire for the Ball Python crowd!!

Not saying he shouldn't try to grow it out, but he has to realize that if that animal grows up and reproduces, the inferior genes just might pass down to the next generation... and that's what everyone wants, genetically inferior alterna... good luck with that...

Happy herpin'...

MP

I still say most "problems" like kinks and dead-in-eggs are direct results of attempts at captive care, not genetics. So if somebody does raise one up and breed it the babies are not likely to pass such things down.... But then again it will keep happening to some degree due to imperfect conditions of captivity.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

like them bugged eyed texas ratsnakes.....and who wants a scaleless snake?????.......WTF????

Without getting into a rant about this what part of probably our fault, through improper care, do you not understand? You are right, no one would intentionally breed for kinks. Anyone that hatches snakes will eventually have a sad day and find one or several of their clutch kinked. I have had very mild kinks and range up to kinks so bad the snake could not get out of the egg. I am saying unless you prove through breeding that the kinks are heriditary, you might be wasting a good animal by simply killing it, especially if only one egg hatches, it is a male albino alterna that you hatched out of a wild caught female that was gravid when you caught her. That may be an extreme but, to me killing an animal that may be my fault it is kinked, just does not set right with me especially if the animal is otherwise healthy. I recognize there may be purists out there but, I can assure you that there are a million young beginner herpers that would jump at the chance to get there hands on a poor happless cripple and raise it as its own. On the other hand if you are routinely hatching kinked animals I would suggest one of two things. Either get the hell out of the hobby or learn what you are doing wrong and fix it. Do not inflict your ignorance or lack of ability on an animal that does not have any control over its life. Remember, once they are captive we control their destiny. IMHO

ECTimaeus

wow....you know i'd never put any animal down.....heck....remember the guys i used to hunt with???

I hear ya, and don't disagree with you for the most part... just saying that there are people who prefer to humanely dispose of an animal rather than take the chance of passing on "inferior" genes... in the big scheme of things, it really just doesn't matter. After all, Micrurus have to eat too! I would rather "sacrifice" a kinked up captive alterna (or insert any number of species here)that means absolutely nothing to wild populations to feed a snake-eater than remove from the wild a viable Sonora, Tantilla, etc., regardless if it is kinked from genetics, poor husbandry, or any other reason.

Happy herpin'...

MP