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Coral snake question

WaGuy82 Sep 24, 2003 01:01 AM

Hi everyone

I've been a member of Kingsnake, but normally frequent the bearded dragons forum.

Recently my friend was given a snake by her sister. It's supposedly a coral snake, and has now become her son's snake. I know coral snakes are extremely venemous, however, this snake doesn't have the bands that coral snakes usually have. It has a small head, at least 24 inches long. It is very active when held. The coloring is orange. It's an extremely beautiful snake.

I was just wondering if this was really a coral snake? If it is, would her family be in any danger? I will try to take a picture the next time I'm over there.

Replies (31)

michaelb Sep 24, 2003 01:19 AM

The answers to your questions are 1) probably not, and 2) YES!!

We'll need a pic or at least a more detailed description of the coloration and pattern to be sure, but what you've described does not sound like a true coral snake. Sounds more like a snake that is simply coral-colored, i.e., that pinkish-orange color.

But if it IS actually a coral snake, there is extreme danger here! Coral snakes possess a potent neurotoxic venom that can cause very serious and potentially life-threatening symptoms. They are related to cobras and mambas - which also have a deadly reputation.

By all means, DO NOT handle this snake, or let anyone else do so, until you can make a absolute, positive ID!!
-----
MichaelB

Greg Longhurst Sep 24, 2003 04:44 AM

I couldn't have said it better than MichaelB did myself. It was stated that the snake was supposedly a coral snake, yet it was also stated that the snake was calm when handled. What's wrong with that picture? Here's a site that has a good photograph & detailed written account of coral snakes, so there should be no doubt. Just click on the picture of the coral.

~~Greg~~
Coral Snake

rearfang Sep 24, 2003 06:21 AM

Why does this remind me of an event that happened many years ago... I recieved an emergency call from my mother stating there was a coralsnake in her kitchen. I burned rubber for 50 odd miles to get to my parent's house just to be presented with a Red Ratsnake. "But it was coral colored..." my mother said.

Treat any unknown snake as venomous,till the ID is positive.
Frank

michaelb Sep 24, 2003 07:31 AM

Hey Greg, I just noticed on your web page that the Eastern Coral is listed as Agkistrodon contortix contortix. Oops...
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MichaelB

Greg Longhurst Sep 24, 2003 05:32 PM

Thanks, Mike. I don't know how that happened or how long it's been that way, but I will get it fixed. Hey, at least it wasn't Micrurus contortrix or Agkistrodon fulvius, huh?

~~Greg~~

oldherper Sep 24, 2003 06:35 PM

Hey Greg..do you have a photo of a Brattler (Crotalus hybridus impossiblus) on your site?

Greg Longhurst Sep 24, 2003 06:56 PM

No, but I prolly have an old picture of a Crotalus adamanteus fouteenfooteni hidden away someplace.

~~Greg~~

oldherper Sep 24, 2003 07:56 PM

Man! It's been years since I thought about that picture...the one of the 4 or 5 guys holding up what appears to be a Python-sized Eastern Diamondback...

Greg Longhurst Sep 24, 2003 08:24 PM

That's the one. Taken back in the '20's, I believe..here in Palm Beach County. Give me a couple of six footers & a sharp knife & some thread, I could probably reproduce that critter...exactly the way they did it.

~~Greg~~

oldherper Sep 25, 2003 07:32 AM

Yep! That's what I figure, a little dice and splice....

I remember even in the '60's that picture was floating around and people were arguing about whether it was real..then you would hear all of the "personally witnessed" stories..."I know they get that big. I saw one last year that stretched all the way across the blacktop! His head was in one ditch and his tail was in another!"...or..."My neighbor ran over one that big a few years ago and it bit the tire on his car and gave him a flat tire..when he took it in to have the tire changed the fang was still in the tire. The guy changing it didn't know it and got scratched by that fang. He nearly died at the hospital."

That and the stories about the water skiier falling off the skis and into a "nest" of "Water Moccasins" and being bitten, like 500 times before they could pull him out "He still had Moccasins hanging all over him, they had to beat them off of him with a paddle!"

And, of course, the one about the kid digging up worms to fish with and accidentally digs up a "whole coffee can full" of "ground rattlers" and said to his dad "Dad, these worms keep biting me!" Of course, tragically he dies before anyone can do anything....

If you would try to point out that these stories were obviously B.S., these people would rabidly defend the authenticity of them, although they could never produce any evidence or anyone that was personally involved...it was always a friend of their uncle's mother-in-law's neighbor's cousin.

JLC Sep 25, 2003 07:49 AM

I love reading these old myths. They're a hoot! (Although I suppose it's not so funny if people actually believe them...though I find myself snickering at them too!)

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

redmom Sep 25, 2003 09:20 AM

I the myth I have the hardest time with (I can't believe people actually believe this!) is the "hoop snake". Supposedly this snake will put it's tail in it's mouth, creating a "hoop" and roll down a hill chasing someone.

Good grief! *rolls eyes
-----
~redmom~
My Email
Herps:
1.0 Normal corn snake "Ed"

Others:
1.0 Blue Betta fish "'Beta' test"
0.1 White/Lemon/beige splotched and spotted hound mix "Angel"

Human pets:
2.0 Children "Matthew" 7 yrs, "Duncan" > 1 yr
1.0 Hubby "Roger"

"Life will find a way." Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) Jurrasic Park

rearfang Sep 25, 2003 12:45 PM

I'm on my way to the hospital! I just got bit by the Florida Stinging snake!!!!!!
Frank

oldherper Sep 25, 2003 01:22 PM

Oh, Man! Bummer!! I've heard horror stories about those...horror stories I tell ya!!

Terrible symptoms that appear over a period of 30 years or so...

Hair loss in men, weight gain especially around the middle, an overwhelming desire to sit in front of a television for long periods of time, fear of lawnmowers, hot dog fingers, gigantic eyeball...

No antivenin is produced for this species. I was bitten once and went to the ER for it. It went like this:

Doc: There's no such thing as a "stinging snake", you're just crazy, that's all.
Me: I want a second opinion.
Doc: OK...you're ugly, too.

shadindigo Sep 25, 2003 02:25 PM

... one can be envenomated without knowing it? I seem to have symptoms but don't exactly remember being bitten by such a critter as that.

Anyway, meant to tell OH, that in his research on these common animals there is one I've yet to see come up in discussion, Specifically: Joint Snakes.

From one recorded eyewitness description..."Well, y'take them there joint snakes now. Why, y'can hit one and it'll fly all t'pieces. Th' pieces of it's about six inches long. And you'll go on and leave him, and if you'll turn back and watch him, that head hit'll just take back'erds and hunt ever' piece, by grannys, and he'll go right back t'gether. They ain't poison, but anything'll hurt y'when it brings th' blood out of y'. All these snakes ain't poison, but now they'll hurt y'just th'same as anything else bitin' blood out of y'will" From the first "FOXFIRE" book.

What remains unclear is whether you can still find these animals without smoking...

Regards,
J.

Greg Longhurst Sep 25, 2003 04:55 PM

Yeah, I've heard most of them, myself. Trouble is, that story about the nest of moccasins has been in a lot of newspapers, including some that are outside the range of the cottonmouth.
The hoopsnake & stinging snake are both probably attributable to the mud snake. The joint snake is most likely predicated upon the glass lizard. It has always amazed me how much & how quickly a diamondback shrinks the closer it gets to a sober tape measure.

~~Greg~~

shadindigo Sep 25, 2003 05:14 PM

I've always thought that the "Joint Snake" came from those animals commonly called "chains" . Lampropeltis getula getula but I may be way off the mark. Stands to reason that an animal that can readily break off it's tail would be a good candidate as well.

Regards,
J.

muse Sep 25, 2003 05:27 PM

I always thought the "Hoop"snake was the coachwhip...Why, I have scars where that nasty snake just whipped me and rolled down the road!
MA

rearfang Sep 25, 2003 05:52 PM

Remember Joel K.s "rubber"snake (P.parkinglotus)? Any sightings lately?
Frank

snakeguy88 Sep 25, 2003 08:15 PM

Haha yea...Farancia harmless? I think not!
-----
Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

corn queen Sep 26, 2003 08:13 PM

f*** you -if you are not over taht yet you have major porblems

oldherper Sep 27, 2003 04:25 PM

If we aren't over taht yet, we have major porblems.

I don't know what "taht" is, and I don't know what a porblem is....I guess that could be a problem.

snakeguy88 Sep 27, 2003 10:20 PM

It dun sounds like this here one got bit by a dern brattler I do declare. They breeds up big der so keep a close eyeball on yerself. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

meretseger Sep 26, 2003 04:27 AM

If you breed a black snake to a rattlesnake, can it still sting you with its tail? I'm not sure which end is safe to pick up!
-----
Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

corn queen Sep 26, 2003 08:09 PM

f*** you are you not over that yet?

Ophiophthalmos Oct 01, 2003 01:09 PM

Something I'd like to throw out there on this subject.

Coral Snakes are Elapids. I remember reading somewhere that all Elapids lack a loreal scale while most other snakes have one. Hence the absence of a loreal scale indicates the snake may be an Elapid. The presence of a loreal scale indicates the snake is NOT an Elapid.

The loreal scale is a small scale locatedon the side of the head between the pre-ocular scale and the post-nasal scale. That is, it is a scale between the eye and the external nares which contacts neither the eye or the external nares.

Presumably its absence in Elapids is due to a shortening of the anterior portion of the skull to allow the fangs to more easily come into play.

Anybody else out there hear this?

oldherper Oct 01, 2003 03:41 PM

Well, that's sort of misleading. If you are talking about Australian snakes, I think you might be able to go by that. However, there are a lot of exceptions in other populations. Here are a couple:

Virginia valeriae ssp (Colubrid) has a horizontal loreal which contacts the eye and the postnasal(no preocular).

Storeria dekayii ssp (Colubrid) has no loreal. The postnasal contacts the preocular.

Ophiophthalmos Oct 01, 2003 10:04 PM

Well, I did say the rule was that all Elapids lack a loreal scale, and that most non-Elapids have one. So if it doesn't have a loreal scale, it MIGHT be an Elapid, but no snake WITH a loreal scale can be an Elapid.

Is THAT a correct assumption?

oldherper Oct 02, 2003 08:01 AM

That would be true to the best of my knowledge. I know of no elapid snakes that possess a loreal scale. The absence of a loreal scale is one dignostic key for identifying elapid snakes, with the presence of a loreal scale being a key for RULING OUT elapidae.

Ophiophthalmos Oct 02, 2003 08:40 AM

Thanks.

I was sure I read that somewhere but couldn't where. It might have been an old book by Raymond L. Ditmars - the man who infected me with the Reptile virus. I wonder how many current herpers ever heard of him?

oldherper Oct 02, 2003 09:03 AM

I would hope all of them have.

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