Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone heard of any new issues for the month of July?

Heard they are still causing issues on the River.

BW,

StevenX

I heard somebody was searched in the parking lot at a hotel in Sanderson by a game warden who was waiting for them as they returned from herping. I don't have any firsthand info, just rumors. Supposedly the search was extensive and no herps were found. The search was supposedly conducted by a game warden.
If this is true I am baffeled as to what the warden thought he could possibly accomplish(other than violating a citizen's constitutional rights) since it is not illegal to bring herps into a hotel.

my vehicle was stopped and we constented to a search by saul the game warden......it was at about 12 noon...as we were leaving for ft davis....details later...no herps...just arthropods....we had outta state tags....i did give him the article with the guy holding the dead texas indigo....and asked him to investigate...

It is not against the law to have snakes in your vehicle. How would anyone know if you didn't buy an animal.

This stuff is getting out of hand!

StevenX

Intimidation. There is no gain to be had from searching a herpers vehicle unless that herper just blurts out a confession and the chances of that are slim. TPWD wants to discourage herpers from going to west TX because they know there is considerable opposition to this law. Not just from herpers either, politicians and local businesses oppose it. If herpers don't go to west TX they will be less likely to get involved at the next legislative session.

IMHO there is also an ego factor. Some people are still collecting, flaunting it with posts showing posed/held animals and/or putting the word "observed" in quotes. I know some will say they could've caught those animals on private property or whatever. I know that but for what I'm talking about it doesn't matter. I'm not talking about legalities. I'm just talking about how TPWD percieves things and refering to what things can cause TPWD to want to harass herpers.

On second thought, did you mean more along the lines of what reason they are using to justify a search?

I couldn't hazard a guess. I can see no legally justifiable reason to search a vehicle unless they had actually seen someone pick up a herp. I guess that's why I think they are doing it mainly for intimidation purposes.

What if all of us took our little friends with us when we went to West Texas to "observe" (sorry Aaron-lol) or photograph the wildlife or collect invertebrates? You know, as a matter of protest to vehicle searches, have a few alterna (or whatever you fancy) in the vehicle with us while we engage in lawful activities. I'm not just talking about a few of us. I'm talking about a collective movement that includes an official letter to TPWD. Would that end the searches or would it result in seizures? Just thinking out loud.

Robert

It would not end well. They at least think that they have the right to seize any animal based on the fact that you have it in the vehicle, they also have a high mortality rate for any reptile they would keep as evidence.

Chances are that you would end up with a bunch of frozen snakes back in a few months once it went to court.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

"They at least think that they have the right to seize any animal based on the fact that you have it in the vehicle."

Do you know of a single occasion outside a federal or state park where a person was stopped under the roadban and LE confiscated lawfully obtained wildlife simply because it was in the vehicle?

If so, I may just cancel my Texas vacation...lol.

Robert

we should have reciepts or gift letters stating the origins of texas herps for justification of said herps...even if the snake looks like....

not yet!!!!!

>>"They at least think that they have the right to seize any animal based on the fact that you have it in the vehicle."
>>
>>Do you know of a single occasion outside a federal or state park where a person was stopped under the roadban and LE confiscated lawfully obtained wildlife simply because it was in the vehicle?
>>
>>If so, I may just cancel my Texas vacation...lol.
>>
>>Robert
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Lance, I think you need to elaborate. I don't know Dan K. from Mary Kay lol. Please give specifics, when it occurred and why no one raised hell about it. Thanks.

Robert

mary kay....with NO problem.....but dan k should open this....since it concerns him....

Well, we really need to coalesce some of these posts. Isn't StevenX requesting the same information up on top?

Robert

Please give those details. Thanks.

Robert

ok..ok...here goes...we left roy's at about 12 noon.....as we passed the new border patrol facility....oh...red lights....the GW said that we surved...and he wanted to be sure that we were ok...( i believe that LE have a cord with a list of reasons to stop a vehicle...e.g. left right brake light out..plate is dirty...etc)....he asked jim to step outta vehicle and interviewed him.....then came to the passenger side and interviewed me...at whicw time i informed saul.."that this is the same info jim gave you"....i told him we had arthropods....which i then showed him...i then said.."YO...i got sumptin fer ya".....and gave him the article with the pics of the hero who dispatched the texas indigo in his yard....thought it was a cottonmouth....and said..."here..do sumptin about this".....he then asked me to get back in the vehicle cause "I MADE HIM NERVOUS!"...dude, this tickled me onaccount i'm 61...with fake knees....this fockin' guy got a piece...taser etc...i thanked him for that statement....he then said sumtin regarding our snake equipment...so could he conduct a search....sure go ahead saul....nothing.... i think he knew we were at roy's and when it looked we were splittin...he stopped us perhaps hoping to find a vertebrate.....perhaps we would get a ticket for perhaps ROW collecting....which we might not return to contest????.....anyway sorry but i gotta do this...

Is Saul (last name?) the local Game Warden that lives in Sanderson?

Robert

you betcha....had a clean view of our room....that's why i THINK (don't really know) he was aware of our presence in sanderson and kept an eye on us....and when he thought we were leaving....checked us out for ...whatever???....sound paranoid???...or logical???....question is...if we had vertebrates....what might have went down????

Well, that is the $500 question, or whatever the $ amount of the fine is. What happens when a Game Warden finds lawfully obtained vertebrates in the vehicle? There are at least three lawful sources for herps in the vehicle; 1. your own personal collection, 2. gifts from fellow herpers (I have been known to take my alterna to Texas and give them away from time to time) and 3. private land. The last two sources may involve some attempt at corroboration, but the last time I checked, vertebrates were not illegal to tavel with in the state of Texas. Maybe they snuck another law through, though...LOL!!!

Robert

yo...lemme know next time you'll be going to texas to give away some alterna....i'll meetup whichya....

That list would include pyros, rosy and rubber boas too. Now, what do you think Saul would do if he found a rubber boa in your vehicle? HAHAHAHA!

you mean an actual rubber boa...not a "rubber" boa....ha..i'll be back next season...earlier...thanks joe forks for that excellent barbq.....and it was great seein' gerry and all youse old guyz....john you look almost as old as me!!!!...damen shoot me an email....bassetto@verizon.net

Even if you did have herps in your vehicle you don't have to tell them where you got them. The burden of proof is on them. The warden can still write a ticket but at that point it's all a bluff; he's just hoping you won't show up in court. If you do show up he will have no evidence to present to the judge and the judge will want to know why the warden is wasting the courts time. The warden will not be able to do that very many times before the judge begins to dislike him. I have already heard of one ticket for roadhunting being dismissed but it was on Facebook and I couldn't find it again, otherwise I would post a link.

IMHO though, the goal is not to stop harrassment and/or "get away with it". The goal is to get our hobby back and try to build a better relationship with TPWD for the future.

I wonder if a formal letter stating that you are disappointed in his illegal search of your vehicle and the way he handled you as a guest and tourist in this fine state, yada yada yada sent to the local paper in Sanderson as well as his boss and maybe the ACLU, etc. would perk-em-up a bit?
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I think that's the ticket (pardon the pun). Here's the law:

Sec. 62.007. STOPPING FOR SEARCH. (a) An authorized employee of the department may search the game bag, receptacle, automobile, or other vehicle if he has reason to believe that the bag, receptacle, automobile, or vehicle contains game unlawfully killed or taken.

(b) A person who refuses to allow a search or refuses to stop a vehicle when requested to do so by an authorized employee commits an offense.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975. Amended by Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 267, art. 3, Sec. 42, eff. Sept. 1, 1985.

Obviously, the Texas courts would have to interpret "reason to believe", but for me there doesn't seem to be the requisite nexus between swerving and seeing snake tongs in the vehicle and having wildlife that was "unlawfully" obtained. So, yeah, I think it's appropriate that Bob proceed with a complaint. At least, that might define some parameters for law enforcement because it sounds like it's a little out of control.

Robert

he requested and we allowed....so i don't think it was illegal....odd....yes, but i made him nervous!!!!

It sounded like he said I can search the vehicle because I saw snake gear, and you said go ahead. That's not exactly a request and consent, but even if he asked you without the implication he could do it anyway, he shouldn't have initiated a search unless he had "reason to believe" your vehicle contained wildlife that was unlawfully obtained. Herps are different than drugs. Herps are not illegal per se. When LE sees a crack pipe through the window of the vehicle - that will constitute a reason to believe that the vehicle contains illegal drugs. When LE sees snake tongs through the window of the vehicle - it does not constitute a reason to believe that the person unlawfully obtained wildlife from the road/row, at least in my opinion. He had no reason to believe the vehicle contained unlawfully obtained wildlife unless he saw you or your bud pick up a snake from the road/row.

You did nothing to warrant a search by a Game Warden. That's your complaint. It sounds like these boys need to be reigned in a little bit. YEEHAW!!!!!!

Robert

of the Sanderson/regional paper--include how much money you spent in the town on lodging, gas, food, etc. and that many other herpers do the same, but if LE keeps harrassing visitors you may just have to take your business elsewhere (and encourage your buddies to do the same). Maybe that'll get some of the locals to have a little chat with the game warden.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

he mumbled something regarding our snake gear....and requested our permission for a search....i'm sorry if i gave the impression that he stated he could search the vehicle because of the equipment.....i think saul was surprized that there weren't any vertebrates in the vehicle.....perhaps this stop will teach saul something.....the majority of us travel there for some other mysterious reason ....other than collecting for $$$$.....hopefully that guy in hondo was visited by TPWL and educated as to the texas indigo's protected status.....AND I MADE SAUL NERVOUS!!!!!!!!.....THE OL' BOY STILL GOTS IT!!!!!!....LADIES....HOW YOUSE DOIN'????

Your vehicle was stopped, detained and searched for no appropriate reason under Sec. 62.007 (IMO). Here it is again with certain words emphasized:

STOPPING FOR SEARCH. (a) An authorized employee of the department MAY SEARCH the game bag, receptacle, automobile, or other vehicle IF HE HAS REASON TO BELIEVE that the bag, receptacle, automobile, or VEHICLE CONTAINS game UNLAWFULLY killed or TAKEN.

The phrase "if he he has reason to believe" is very similar or the same as the phraseolgy used in our new immigration law, which is the subject of lawsuits up the ying-yang (present and future). Can Game Wardens be sued? Perhaps the ACLU ***CAN*** be of benefit here. Has anyone tried this avenue???

Robert

reckon the reason being we had snake hooks......we also had fire arms....but that was cool!!!!!....i'm permitted for concealed carry.....but the snake equipment is reason for a search???....

Exactly. The presence of snakes hooks in the vehicle doesn't make it any more likely the wildlife in the vehicle was unlawfully taken. One doesn't have anything to do with the other (unlike the drug analogy). Here's another analogy: the presence of a weapon in the vehicle doesn't mean your other possessions were obtained by armed robbery-lol. Unless there is strong indignant push-back from folks like you that get searched, this crap is going to continue.

Robert

How much can you really push back when you're from out of state? Thats an expensive trip back to contest if a ticket is issued. The native Texans need to push the most since they can fight the tickets without the expense. This forum is a great example of people being scared to post what they caught even though it's still legal to collect on private property. If everyone goes underground then this cause is a bust.
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Steve W.

I totally agree if we go underground we have already lost the battle. People really need to make an effort to hunt on private property. What I do not like about private property is that alot of them require reservations and that doesn't always work seeing as how most people like to "chase the storms". In all likelyhood even if you do have access to private property there will be times when you know you need to hunt elsewhere just to have a decent chance at seeing any snakes at all. I would rather see snakes and not collect than be wasting my time somewhere on private property. So one is likely going to end up hunting roads at some point but I think it is very important to plan a way to access private property for at least some portion of your trip. When conditions are decent you can hunt the private property as planned but if they are bad you can make side trips as needed.

One thing to think about is you can get your own 20 acres down by river rd for about $3,000 last time I checked. You will need a 4WD to access it but you will also have access to miles of dirt roads leading to your property. This might be worth it for some who are already spending $1,500 - 2,000 on each trip anyways.

Yeah, but that 20 acres is probably pretty damned flat...

There was a ton of lots up north of river rd and from the pictures alot of them were ones in hilly terrain. Perhaps more importantly, the dirt roads leading to the property had to have passed through great habitat although I never drove them myself. These lots were in Presidio county and they were cheap but of course the main problem was access and being so far away from help if you boke down or got hurt. I had not looked at the website in a couple years but I just did now and it looks like all the really cheap Presidio county lots are gone.

A few years ago I ended up getting 5.5 acres in the Davis Mtns for $7,500 because access was much better and there was power at the road, not to mention the weather makes it very nice for a place to eventually build on. It is awesome hunting habitat too. Association fees are about $150/yr and property taxes about $250/yr.

There are still quite a few interesting offerings in Brewster county at fairly affordable prices of $3,000 to 5,000, plus alot of other areas to check out if you are interested in investing or building. Here is the link:
http://www.westtxrealty.com/listings/index.php?action=page_display&PageID=8

Here is another link, this one mainly has stuff in the Davis Mtns. Actually these are the people who I bought my property from. It's the only real estate I've ever bought but I found them to be a pleasure to deal with.

I hope it's not violating the TOS, I live in CA and have no connection to them whatsoever. I'm just trying to give people some ideas on where they can go for TX property. IMHO the more hunters who own property in west TX the bigger voice we will have as it pertains to laws and regs.
http://www.davismountainsrealty.com/

That's cool that it's legit...I love seeing the ads that show the same picture of mtns...when you actually see whats for sale it's a nice little flat area with absolutely nothing on it.

I would guess a realtor would have access to the sales?
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Steve W.

Steve,

The push-back I’m referring to doesn’t involve showing up for a ticket ALTHOUGH if the facts support a defense, all of us should pitch in to help (see below). It does involve writing letters, emails and making phone calls to various organizations that are willing to work on the herp community’s behalf to stop abusive law enforcement tactics until this law can be corrected.

I am willing to contribute to some sort of Texas defense fund. Who knows, maybe I’ll need it the way things are going...hahahaha.

Robert

I believe HCU has already toyed with the idea of a defense fund. It's probably a good place to start if you are thinking about this.

I get it and agree with emails and phone calls. I've made so many calls the last few years that I find it hard to believe they ignore us as much as they do.
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Steve W.

Didn't he say he pulled you over for a motor vehicle issue?
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Steve W.

Am I incorrect? If reptiles are NON Game animals, the section quoted by Robert would not apply, right?

Let's see if they have a more specific search authority under the nongame statutes, or a more comprehensive search authority and when it "may" be invoked. Good catch, Dave.

Robert

Nothing under the nongame Chapter(s), but under Title 2, Chapter 12. Powers And Duties Concerning Wildlife:

§ 12.102. INSPECTION OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES. (a) In this
section:
(1) "Residence" means a person's principal or ordinary
home or dwelling place.
(2) "Temporary residence" means a place where a person
temporarily dwells or seeks shelter. The term does not include a
hunting blind. The term does include a:
(A) hunting club or lodge;
(B) clubhouse;
(C) cabin;
(D) tent;
(E) manufactured home used as a hunting club or
lodge; and
(F) hotel room, motel room, or room in a
boardinghouse used during a hunting trip.
(3) "Wildlife resource" means any animal, bird,
reptile, amphibian, fish, or form of aquatic life or any part of an
animal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, or form of aquatic life the
hunting, catching, or possession of which is regulated by this
code.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or
other peace officer commissioned by the department who observes a
person engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the
jurisdiction of the commission or reasonably believes that a person
is or has been engaged in an activity regulated by this code or
under the jurisdiction of the commission may inspect:
(1) any license, permit, tag, or other document issued
by the department and required by this code of a person hunting or
catching wildlife resources;
(2) any device that may be used to hunt or catch a
wildlife resource;
(3) any wildlife resource in the person's possession;
and
(4) the contents of any container or receptacle that
is commonly used to store or conceal a wildlife resource.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or
other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect any
wildlife resource that has been taken by a person and is in plain
view of the game warden or other peace officer.
(d) Nothing in this section authorizes a game warden or
other peace officer commissioned by the department to conduct a
search otherwise authorized by this section:
(1) in a person's residence or temporary residence; or
(2) on a publicly maintained road or way that is:
(A) improved, designed, or ordinarily used for
vehicular traffic;
(B) open to the public; and
(C) distinguishable from a shoulder, berm, or
other area not intended for vehicular traffic.

Added by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 558, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.

Section: Previous 12.021 12.024 12.025 12.0251 12.026 12.027 12.101 12.102 12.103 12.104 12.105 12.106 12.107 12.108 12.109 Next
Last modified: August 11, 2007

Got this up fast. Haven't digested the meaning yet.

Robert

snakes etc were non-game...the "hunting" laws were not applied....so we could "take/collect" non-game from a car ....'til a GW stationed, i believe in sanderson.....applied the term "hunt" to the non-game species as well....and was able to convince people in the positions of power to accept it.....so there it is.....and this guy is probably reading this on his state provided lap top and thinking..."I REALLY F**KED THEM SNAKE HUNTERS".....for whatever reason....and we spent about $1800 in sanderson.....would spend more, but everything is closed!!!!

This has to be it:

Sec. 12.104. RIGHT TO SEARCH AND INSPECT. (a) A game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may search a game bag, vehicle, vessel, or other receptacle if the game warden or peace officer has a reasonable, articulable suspicion that the game bag, vehicle, vessel, or receptacle contains a wildlife resource that has been unlawfully killed or taken.

(b) A game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect a wildlife resource or a part or product of a wildlife resource that is discovered during a search under Subsection (a) of this section.

(c) In this section "wildlife resource" means an animal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, or other aquatic life the taking or possession of which is regulated in any manner by this code.

Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975. Amended by Acts 1991, 72nd Leg., ch. 261, Sec. 1, eff. Aug. 26, 1991.

In this section, the standard is "reasonable, articulable suspicion". Is that a lower or higher standard than "reason to believe"?

Robert

I would say possession of legal field equipment is neither "reason to believe" nor "articulable suspicion". Either way they have no grounds unless they see you pick up a snake.

The more the herp community learns about the standards that must be employed BEFORE a Game Warden can legally perform an investigatory stop (a seizure), the less the community will tolerate the abuses. In order for the Game Warden to perform an investigatory stop in this case, the Warden must have reasonable suspicion, based upon specific, articulable facts taken together with reasonable inferences from those facts, that the particular person stopped has been, is or is about to be, engaged in the unlawful taking of wildlife. Here, the Game Warden did not witness sufficient facts to indicate that wildlife had been or was going to be unlawfully taken. He observed a vehicle swerve on the highway that left Sanderson at 12 NOON. This would not support a finding of reasonable suspicion.

Bob should file a complaint and take it to the Department and to the folks at Sanderson. Hell, he should even contact the ACLU. Then, HE WOULD REALLY SCARE THAT GAME WARDEN. LOL!!!

Robert

I agree but also stay focused on the bigger issue, that of making it legal to persue our hobby in reasonable fashion. Let's not win the battle(searches) and lose the war(roadhunting).

Complaining about searches should at best be a way to let them know their pet law is more trouble than it's worth. Reducing searches should not even be taken as a victory if we don't gain back the right to sustainably collect from what little public lands we have access to.

Correct and that's the bottom line. But the wardens are being allowed to make the rules up along the way and until we find someone who will actually ream them a new one for breaking the rules as written it's a long road ahead.
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Steve W.

I think if a warden goes before the same judge 3 or 4 times with flimsy evidence he will get "reamed" by the judge and not want to do it again unless he has really strong evidence.

For this to happen innocent people will have to fight their tickets.

Good idea. I think we should swamp them with truly legal observers so that their resources are taxed and they get nothing but grief at the courthouse.