Reptile & Amphibian Forums

At my summer camp we have a nature lodge where animals, including snakes, are kept on display. One of the e. milks laid 12 eggs, and since no one there knew how to incubate eggs they gave them to me.

They seem to be doing well (they were laid over a week ago). But I am worried because one of my friends incubated a e. milk clutch and all of the hatchlings died randomly after a few months, feeding regularly on pinks. What went wrong? What can I do to prevent this?

On feeding, I own an e. king that I feed adult mice, to start off the milks I may cut off the mouse tails and offer those. Until winter comes I can also easily find baby garter snakes for feeders if it is necessary. Also, I read a study on crocodiles that said that scientists imprinted favorite foods in the hatchlings by painting flavors directly on the eggs. Does this work with milks? Can difficult feeders be warded off before they even hatch if I brush some pinky scent on the eggs?

By the way, how old should the babies be before I separate them?

crocacutus

hatch them.....search online and make sure you can do it ....

then release the babies at the place the mother was taken from ie the Park? around the "Nature Center"???....

trust me......let them free....it will make you feel real good inside......LOL

.....really.....
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...one of the CraZieS...?...

........JY.......

Mice could be too fatty, they would eat larvas and/or anoles in the wild, but moisture might be key to starting juvies, I keep mine in deep moist coconut with dry aspen on top and they eat, breed and hatch in this set up. I too just release the juvie scarlet kings I happen to aquire every other year, too small for me to devote that much time to. good luck with the senting the egg thing, sounds like a fairytale to me...

Now I'm not above trying anything but exactly where are Eastern milks found side by side with Anoles?

Hey Jeff,
Certain rock faces in western North Carolina have relic populations of anoles alongside eastern milks. I don't think anoles hibernate (I have seen them surface active in December along the NC coast), so anywhere that it gets cold enough to frost a couple inches deep is too cold for anoles...however, those few southwestern rock faces manage to maintain enough warmth in the winter for the anoles to hang around. That's the only place I could think of. Not trying to be contrary, just sharing what I thought was fascinating when I learned of it a couple years ago.

I think Joe is talking about elapsoides.

Michael

Michael, while I figured there may be an outlying population or 2 I think its pretty telling that as widespread as these 2 species are there is basically no overlap. I think many studying Coastal plains/SKs/eastern milks cant overlook that dichotomy.

Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, etc.? They have both Milks and Anoles...

-Cole

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

Its quite funny to me when I do see green anoles in natural habitat as I am so used to them being urban lizards living on brick walls and fence rows LOL!! Totally not out of the question that can be found in the same habitats as the LA milks her in LA.

Jeff said:
I think its pretty telling that as widespread as these 2 species are there is basically no overlap.

I took the comment to mean that Lampropeltis triangulum (not including L. elapsoides) and Anolis carolinensis didn't overlap in range, but that L. elapsoides and Anolis carolinensis did. I certainly didn't take it to mean specifically L. t. triangulum, though that was the gist of the thread's origin.

I guess this goes to show how easily two people can read two different things in the same words, huh?

-Cole

LMAO! So if Anoles arent found with Eastern milks....WHY?

LOL!! Sorry Cole, makes sense. It sure does show how interpretation of posts can be differing for sure!! Still, I agree with you, albeit stated in a different way.

I think that's often at the heart of forum arguments - people can really be trying to say the same thing, but their ideas are mis-read by others in the conversation.

-Cole

Cole, its like that name game. Put any 10 people online together and some people assume stuff, just dont read, dont understand humor, or think they know alot more about the subject than they do. Some people think differently, some none at all. Words I write here are as if I were having a conversation with someone right next to me. Innuendo, subtleties, context, tone, inflection are all part of conversation, never mind geography and intelligence and experience. Anyone with a computer can write to anyone else, I assure you no one is alike on all levels. We have to have fun and learn how to get along. I know my role, LMAO.

sorry Jeff I just ment lizards, I was out of line, your show... haha!

Perhaps Jeff has forgotten that the species name is Anolis CAROLINENSIS??

There's actually quite a bit of overlap between Eastern milks and green anoles -- including parts of TN, NC, GA, AL, and a bit of SC.

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That represts a fairly recently discovered population of anoles on the rock face I was talking about in an earlier email, discovered by Wayne Van Devender from App State. It was not present on the 1980's edition of the Peterson Field Guide. Anoles have also been found on other rock faces in the western part of the state as detailed in that map.

One of the most interested things I learned when I actually started traveling to those places and herping those places is that a range map is a best guess, connect the dots, map that is a result of various localities that have been recorded through voucher specimens over time and then covered with a blanket. Because a snake or lizard falls within that estimated "range" in a field guide doesn't mean you will drive there and see it. Each species needs a specific microhabitat. At times, we are fortunate enough to find a species outside of that estimated "range" from a field guide, as I did with this scarlet snake in 2007 that represented a major range extension for the species. Time in the field, understanding of a species' need, and habitat associates help you make those kind of discoveries.

One would be hard pressed to find an eastern milk and an anole at the same locale. There are a few places where it can be done, but I would love to actually hear from a person who had done it.

Take or leave it, it's just my 2 cents worth from a guy who has actually herped that part of the world more than once...

Scarlet snake represents the range extension from 2007. The scarlet king is from eastern NC...just to keep it real for the milkheads who took time to read this...

Thanks,
Michael

>>One of the most interested things I learned when I actually started traveling to those places and herping those places is that a range map is a best guess, connect the dots, map that is a result of various localities that have been recorded through voucher specimens over time and then covered with a blanket. Because a snake or lizard falls within that estimated "range" in a field guide doesn't mean you will drive there and see it.

Absolutely true!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Now the saying goes, I might have been born at night, but it wasnt last night. If there is any such study please tell me which ping pong balls to pick from the lottery because....Ms Cleo must be back at work. You cant do that, and only a fool would believe that. Eastern milks are more difficult to start than most other NA colubrids. If you havent done it before just bring them to where the mom was found and release the babies. If you think you are smart enough to raise them to adults and keep them as pets....Paint a number on the eggs in your fridge and keep the corresponding hatching number....derrrr.

What I find interesting is that you didn't provide a reason why it wouldn't work, other than that you thought he was retarded for suggesting it. You also didn't even ask him for a reference of the study he read. It's an intriguing idea, even if it may not work for snakes. But what if it did? 0.o Has anyone ever tried it before?
We all are aware of, and generally trust, your experience here, Jeff, but please try to not be so offensive when offering your advice next time.

Anyone thinking that a developing embryo has the time and where with all to learn the encyclopedia upside down and backwards(because thats what it looks like inside the egg)has more problems than me offending them. Dismissed out of hand, YUP! Ashamed to have to post on it a 2nd time, YUP! Someone can write a paper saying the moon is made of green cheese, logic says I dont have to prove its not....

Once again, Jeff leaps before he looks....

I haven't seen the crocodile study, but it is absolutely true in other species that taste preferences can be affected by prenatal exposure. Since reptile eggs are relatively permeable, it may indeed be possible to affect their preferences as well. I don't know the answer to that, and Jeff certainly doesn't -- no matter how often he pretends to be omniscient.

Here's just a few examples:

Bayol SA, Farrington SJ, and Stickland NC. 2007. A maternal 'junk food' diet in pregnancy and lactation promotes an exacerbated taste for 'junk food' and a greater propensity for obesity in rat offspring. Br J Nutr. 98(4):843-51.

Bellinger L, Lilley C, Langley-Evans SC.2004. Prenatal exposure to a maternal low-protein diet programmes a preference for high-fat foods in the young adult rat. Br J Nutr. 92(3):513-20.

Bilko A, Altbacker V, and Hudson R. 1994. Transmission of food preference in the rabbit: The means of information transfer. Physiology and Behaviour 56: 907-912.

de Vries JIP, Visser GHA, and Prectl IIFR. 1985. The emergence of fetal behaviour II. Quantitative aspects. Early Human Devel 12:99-120.

Hepper PG. 1988. Adaptive fetal learning: prenatal exposure to garlic affects postnatal preference. Animal Behav 36:935-6

Mennella JA, Jagnow CP, Beauchamp GK. 2001. Prenatal and Postnatal Flavor Learning by Human Infants. Pediatrics. 107(6)88.

Varendi H, Porter RH, Winberg J. 1996. Attractiveness of amniotic fluid odor: evidence of prenatal olfactory learning? Acta Paediatr. 85(10):1223-7.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Doc, not looking before I leap?? I know YOUR scent wasnt painted on any crocodile eggs, want to jump in with one to prove your point??? They are CROCODILES, they eat ANYTHING, proving it will eat what scent markers are dabbed on eggs certainly doesnt prove baby milks will take rodents. If you make THAT assumptive jump I assure you a very hard landing. Way to go on the Carolina Anoles post too! Your field experience is growing by the day!

Phhhhhht, Jeff. Your desperate blustering does nothing to erase the glaring fact that once again you pretended to know what you're talking about when you don't actually have a clue. Despite your confident claims to the contrary, slugs are not poisonous -- and indeed it IS possible to influence neonatal preferences through prenatal exposure.

Better luck next time, Jeff!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

This is an interesting topic - definitely worth a try

>>This is an interesting topic - definitely worth a try

I think it would be a very interesting experiment, at the very least.

Unfortunately, it would be quite a bit more difficult with chickens than with snakes. Chicken eggs need very careful temperature regulation, as well as constant (or at least frequent) turning -- so they need mechanical incubators, rather than just a moist box in a relatively warm place. I use a large cabinet incubator, with many eggs incubating constantly, so it would be difficult to separate "treatment" eggs (eggs being exposed to whatever chemical agent) from "control" eggs (eggs not being exposed). OTOH chicken eggs have a much faster incubation than snakes (only 21 days), so one could get results much more quickly....

I hope someone does try it with snake eggs -- and hopefully they'll report back with results!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here's a very relevant study, done with chicks. If chemosensory learning can take place through a chicken egg, I see no reason why it wouldn't work with a reptile...

Physiol Behav. 1998 May;64(2):133-9.
Chemosensory learning in the chicken embryo.

Sneddon H, Hadden R, Hepper PG.

Prenatal chemosensory learning has been demonstrated in mammals, fish, amphibians, and insects, but not birds, although there is evidence of the avian's ability to learn auditory stimuli before hatching. This paper examines how exposure to a chemosensory stimulus (strawberry) prior to hatching affects subsequent chemosensory preferences of newly hatched chicks. The chicks' preferences were assessed at 2 days after hatching using an "olfactory" preference test (strawberry-smelling shavings versus water-coated shavings) and at 4 days after hatching using a "gustatory" preference test (strawberry-flavoured water versus unflavoured water). Chicken embryos were exposed to strawberry from Day 15 to Day 20 of incubation by either presenting the odour in the air around the egg, rubbing it onto the shell, or injecting it into the air space. With no exposure to strawberry before hatching, strawberry was highly aversive to chicks after hatching. However, following exposure to strawberry before hatching, chicks expressed a greater preference for (or weaker aversion to) the strawberry stimulus. Chicks exposed to strawberry before hatching drank more strawberry-flavoured water and spent more time in a strawberry-scented area than chicks having no exposure before hatching. This change in preference was specific to the stimulus experienced before hatching and was present in the absence of any posthatching exposure to the stimulus. The results demonstrate that a chick's chemosensory preferences are changed as a result of experience with a stimulus before hatching and are suggestive of learning. The results, similar to those obtained in other animal groups, indicate the universality of "prenatal" chemosensory learning in the animal kingdom. A possible role of embryonic chemosensory learning for recognition is discussed.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

This one is for Milk snakes.

if mom drinks and smokes the kid will want a beer and a light at 3 weeks of age....

the problem is they cnanot talk and go through withdrawls from the getgo....

must suck.....glad my mother liked chocolate and iced tea.......

LOL........
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too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

Whaddaya know, I found the study that the OP was probably referring to. Here ya go --

SNEDDON, H., P. G. HEPPER, and C. MANOLIS. 1999. A pre-hatch method for influencing the diet eaten after hatching in the saltwater crocodile (Crocodylus porosus). Pp. 371-377 in Crocodiles. Proceedings of the 14th Working Meeting of the Crocodile Specialist Group, IUCN-The World Conservation Union, Gland, Switzerland and Cambridge, UK. (ed.).

—. 2001. Embryonic chemosensory learning in the Saltwater crocodile Crocodylus porosus. Pp. 378-382 in Crocodilian Biology and Evolution. G. C. Grigg, F. Seebacher, and C. E. Franklin (ed.). Surrey Beatty & Sons Pty. Limited, Chipping Norton, N.S.W., Australia.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

By the way, the study exists, it is in the bibloiography of a book that I do not have at the moment, I will get it to you as soon as possible.

Reptiles absorb water through their shells, but naturally proteins are much larger. Crocodile eggs are very different from snake eggs, obviously, but just how different would be interesting to find out.

crocacutus

Never mind, I hadn't finished the thread.

crocacutus

Believe it or not, I know someone who does this with his GBK eggs. He seems to have pretty good luck with it...he places dirty mouse bedding in the egg box during incubation. I've also heard this working with chondro eggs, but have never tried it myself.

>>Now the saying goes, I might have been born at night, but it wasnt last night. If there is any such study please tell me which ping pong balls to pick from the lottery because....Ms Cleo must be back at work. You cant do that, and only a fool would believe that. Eastern milks are more difficult to start than most other NA colubrids. If you havent done it before just bring them to where the mom was found and release the babies. If you think you are smart enough to raise them to adults and keep them as pets....Paint a number on the eggs in your fridge and keep the corresponding hatching number....derrrr.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Believe it or not, I know someone who does this with his GBK eggs. He seems to have pretty good luck with it...he places dirty mouse bedding in the egg box during incubation. I've also heard this working with chondro eggs, but have never tried it myself.

>>Now the saying goes, I might have been born at night, but it wasnt last night. If there is any such study please tell me which ping pong balls to pick from the lottery because....Ms Cleo must be back at work. You cant do that, and only a fool would believe that. Eastern milks are more difficult to start than most other NA colubrids. If you havent done it before just bring them to where the mom was found and release the babies. If you think you are smart enough to raise them to adults and keep them as pets....Paint a number on the eggs in your fridge and keep the corresponding hatching number....derrrr.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

That's what I was trying to get at. I have kept one hatchling e. milk for a time and it did not eat. I know that hobbyists have many problems feeding certain hatchling snakes because they prefer lizards over mice. It would be very interesting to do a study on whether this actually works.

I think I am going to read through the crocodile egg study and try it, with pinkies. It can't hurt, I suppose.

crocacutus

I don't have any experience with conditioning eggs but I can tell you from my experience with coastal plains milks, that feeding lizards and or smaller snakes or even scenting with them is counter productive. Tease feeding with tails twice a week is sufficient for growth and quite nearly 100% of neonates eventually take f/t pinks on their own accord. Most will do so within the first few months of life. No hokus-pokus required, just a bit of old fashion TLC. I see no reason easterns would be any more difficult.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sorry guys I'm sill with Jeff, snake eggs are not croc eggs, lab people tend to be young/geeks and wrong allot, sounds like a gimmic, hell just plain silly! oh and senting or feeding lizards may be counter productive to the keeper but It's like you said Tony, these milks would eat mice anyway after a few months of growth from taking lizards. my point being baby milks want lizards. oh and someone mentioned snake eggs absorb water but I think he just ment moisture, even a few drops of water will totaly saturate an egg shell causing mold and could over time kill the egg.

>>Sorry guys I'm sill with Jeff, snake eggs are not croc eggs, lab people tend to be young/geeks and wrong allot, sounds like a gimmic, hell just plain silly!

What is silly about it? If it did work, it could be a good way to influence hatchlings to eat a readily-available food item.

And yes, of course snake eggs are not croc eggs. But this phenomenon has been shown to work even with CHICKEN eggs, as well as embryonic animals of all other vertebrate classes (mammals, amphibians, fish, birds, reptiles). Why should it work in all these other species, and then suddenly NOT work for snakes??

I see two major stumbling blocks here: 1. "scenting" the embryos without contaminating the environment (for instance, I can see dirty mouse litter providing lots of nasty bacteria and/or fungi); and 2. the effect (degree of preference created) may not be large enough to make a significant difference.

Somebody needs to go out there and test this. Split some clutches, then expose half the clutch to scent and leave the other half untreated. Then see if there is a difference in diet preferences. It would be very interesting, and if done properly could easily be publishable. Somebody get busy!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Take half the eggs you produce ...oh ya, you dont breed do you? I tell you this now, no one is going to let you experiment on their eggs. Please send the viperish attitude elsewhere, snake eggs are different from Crocodile eggs, bird eggs and EVEN ....Chicken eggs. Taking a unproven hypothesis across phylogenous lines and twisting it sounds like careless science to me. But if you can publish it, more power to you! Mad magazine still taking contributions?

ROFLMAO!!

Jeff, the same effect has been demonstrated in all FIVE classes of vertebrate animals. You don't really think that snakes would somehow manage to be unique amongst all the classes, do you?? LOL!!

And yes, I do incubate and hatch many many eggs every year. My eggs happen to be of the class Aves, though. Maybe one of these days I'll try the experiment -- ya never know!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

If you touch the eggs and arent eaten alive I suggest your theory has holes. Remember, this is the Milk Snake forum.

>>If you touch the eggs and arent eaten alive I suggest your theory has holes. Remember, this is the Milk Snake forum.

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.....the prenatal exposure studies are about **influencing preferences**, not about establishing any absolutes. And yes, chicks do peck hands with great frequency!

And no, no matter how hard you try to believe it -- milk snakes are not likely to be unique in their resistance to a phenomenon already known to occur across all five vertebrate classes. I know, I know...you hate to let inconvenient facts get in the way of your nice little fantasies. Just keep repeating to yourself "slugs really ARE poisonous, slugs really ARE poisonous, slugs really ARE poisonous", and maybe you'll feel better.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You got your Chicken eggs, I have my Sea slugs!

http://trueslant.com/jeffkoyen/2009/08/21/poisonous-sea-slugs-killing-dogs-on-new-zealands-beaches/

>>You got your Chicken eggs, I have my Sea slugs!
>>
>>
>>http://trueslant.com/jeffkoyen/2009/08/21/poisonous-sea-slugs-killing-dogs-on-new-zealands-beaches/

ROFLMAO!!

Since when are Lampropeltis gonna have a chance at sea slugs???

Give it up, Jeff!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

They are in the grocery store right next to the Chicken eggs. Give it up yourself! Carolina Anoles! LMAO!

>>They are in the grocery store right next to the Chicken eggs. Give it up yourself! Carolina Anoles! LMAO!

Yup, sure enough -- CAROLINA anoles. Their ranges do overlap, despite your confident claims to the contrary.

And in case you've conveniently forgotten, your claim about prenatal chemosensory learning was: "Anyone thinking that a developing embryo has the time and where with all to learn the encyclopedia upside down and backwards(because thats what it looks like inside the egg)has more problems than me offending them. Dismissed out of hand, YUP! "

Well, guess what, Jeff -- "developing embryos" in all five vertebrate classes DO have "the time and where with all" to learn chemosensory preferences, no matter how much you try to bluster your way out of it now. Better luck next time!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Are there poisonous slugs? Yes-proven
Can anyone besides Mr.Coone name a single locale that contains both the Eastern Milk and Anoles? Not yet-very rare
Has it been proven that "chemosensory preference" has any influence in snake eggs of any kind? No
Will AmazonDoc ever let anyone else finish a thread she is involved in? Not likely

Got a new forum for ya~~~~

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/index.php

AAAHHHAAAA

>>Are there poisonous slugs? Yes-proven

That's not even a good try, Jeff. We were discussing possible diets of Lampropeltis hatchlings at the time, not yellow-bellied sea snakes in New Zealand.

>>Can anyone besides Mr.Coone name a single locale that contains both the Eastern Milk and Anoles? Not yet-very rare

Tsk again, Jeff. You asked for ANY overlap, and now you're complaining because you don't think you were given ENOUGH overlapping locations?? Why don't you go investigate all that overlapping range I showed you on the range maps, if you want to find more specific locations?

>>Has it been proven that "chemosensory preference" has any influence in snake eggs of any kind? No

Errrr....since nobody here made any such claim in the first place, this complaint of yours is completely irrelevant.

>>Will AmazonDoc ever let anyone else finish a thread she is involved in? Not likely

Heck, Jeff -- all you have to do is examine this one thread, and you'll see several sub-discussions that I have let others finish -- even you. Heck, you can't even get THIS claim right. LOL!

Better luck next time, Jeff!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I just checked, according to the Peterson Guide Eastern milks and aussie sea slug ranges don't overlap.

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

>>I just checked, according to the Peterson Guide Eastern milks and aussie sea slug ranges don't overlap.

Dang straight.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Whats your point? ROFLMAO!!

>>Whats your point? ROFLMAO!!

OMG, he's finally gone over the edge. Well, I suppose it was bound to happen eventually....after all, if a guy gets this publicly embarrassed enough times, sooner or later he won't be able to stand the shame any longer.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The difference I see is a croc may drop parts of prey into the nest purposly or not where eggs would then get the sent and over time offspring may have developed some way of using this as indication of the most common prey in their range but a snake egg would not encounter anything being burried in tight quarters, thats why I consider it silly, sounds great for croc breeders, question thou, did they sent with urine, sweat/hair/ skin, or blood...I wonder what would happen if we brushed mouse pee on hognose eggs, that would thrill the hog breeders, Hmmmm....

And can I add, exactly what a baby croc NOT eat anyways? Baby birds eat anything their parents give them, good or bad. Logic. Parental influences I'm sure have something to do with both studies.

>>The difference I see is a croc may drop parts of prey into the nest purposly or not where eggs would then get the sent and over time offspring may have developed some way of using this as indication of the most common prey in their range but a snake egg would not encounter anything being burried in tight quarters

That's a good thought. However, this same effect has been demonstrated even in fish and amphibians. It's not something that depends on a lot of deliberate maternal behavior.

>>question thou, did they sent with urine, sweat/hair/ skin, or blood...I wonder what would happen if we brushed mouse pee on hognose eggs, that would thrill the hog breeders, Hmmmm....

I dunno what they used in the croc study -- maybe somebody could look up the full text. There have been various scents used in other species. In the chicken study, they used strawberry scent. For snakes, I think maybe used rodent nesting material or a skinned rodent? It's something to think about!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Unfortunately this clutch is all stuck together and I do not know if it is good to separate them. Can I mark the scented eggs with permanent marker so I remember them?

I have decided that any snakes that do not feed within a week or so will be released. I have an e. kingsnake that eats adult mice, so I have a steady supply of mouse tails that I plan to use.

crocacutus

>>Unfortunately this clutch is all stuck together and I do not know if it is good to separate them. Can I mark the scented eggs with permanent marker so I remember them?
>>
>>I have decided that any snakes that do not feed within a week or so will be released. I have an e. kingsnake that eats adult mice, so I have a steady supply of mouse tails that I plan to use.
>>
>>crocacutus

Well....in this case, all you're really interested in is maximizing the chance that the hatchlings will accept rodents, right? So you don't really need to separate them -- that would only be if you really wanted to perform a scientifically valid study. In this case, your goals are practical -- not scientific. So, if you wanted, you could go ahead and scent all the eggs. It might or might not work, but it would be an interesting thing to try!

If you do scent the eggs, just be very careful to monitor for bacterial or fungal growth. IMHO that's going to be your biggest risk with various scenting materials. And if you do try it, let us know how it goes!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Baby snakes hatch out and go into an immediate shed cycle. They dont usually eat before they shed so I'd give em a week AFTER they shed. And marking them with markers wont work because they will hatch and crawl out when you arent looking....which will make the experiment moot.

There was an article on this in either the last or second-last issue of Vivarium magazine. I do not recall how "official" the study was, but apparently it was a least somewhat successful in getting snakes that are traditionally mainly lizard eaters to eat pinkies after hatching.

I'm pretty sure they were using a T-Rex product (maybe "Mouse Maker" ) to paint the eggs.

Tim

they sugested strawberries....?

I asked how many snakes hatch and want to eat vermiculite....?....

...

my thought on scent....

some babies will favor mice some rats and some other stuff...it just happens ...so not all babies eat the same thing...

it might just be dumb luck...like I love broccoli and W don't....

....?....I want to be luck...W can be dumb....

...
-----
...one of the CraZieS...?...

........JY.......

>>they sugested strawberries....?

That's just the scent they happened to choose in their study. There's no reason why you couldn't use mouse scent instead.

>>I asked how many snakes hatch and want to eat vermiculite....?....

It's not necessarily about *eating*, but rather about learning general preferences. For instance -- if you hatch on vermiculite and somebody else hatches on sphagnum, you might later test the hatchlings to see whether they had developed pro-vermiculite or pro-sphagnum preferences for housing substrates.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

they would be forced to choose paper or aspen....

....

I get it all.......I think it usually is all dumb luck....

.....maybe I'll rub some rat fecal material all over my ball eggs.......hmmm.....

......I'll try it....really....

...>>>......tomorrow....just showered.....remind me....

ll....
-----
...one of the CraZieS...?...

........JY.......

>>they would be forced to choose paper or aspen....

So stick some aspen in the incubation medium, and see if that influences their preferences.

>>.....maybe I'll rub some rat fecal material all over my ball eggs.......hmmm.....

The best I can think of is to first set up some nesting material in the rodent cages. Let the rodents (rat or mouse) build and use their nests for awhile, til they're well scented -- then put that material into the snake incubation box. The rodents would tend to keep the nesting material clean, so it would be less likely to contaminate the eggs. It's a thought, anyway!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Or, I had another thought....

How about skinning a mouse or rat, and putting the skin in the nest box? You could even salt the inner surface to prevent rotting....hmmmmm....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

np

Train em to eat leftovers! God, this is one of the stupidest threads ever!

Thanks a bunch for the information on eastern milk snakes. The eggs appear to be doing fine and I hope everything goes well.

Just for good measure I'm going to say that I live in an area that has NO LIZARDS WHATSOEVER!

And please, people. This was meant to be a discussion about the possibilities for me to raise my milk snakes in peace and for breeders to know that yes, there is a POSSIBILITY that scenting eggs might work. Crocodile eggs are different from snake eggs, sure, but they are a whole lot more different from chicken eggs. We all realize that many animals are prone to prefer the foods that they eat first as a hatchling; thus, we know that taste can be imprinted, even if the embryo is not actually "eating" the chemical cues. Snakes can smell through the shell, so why can't they learn to prefer the food items that they first smell?

Saying that lab researchers are usually young and naive so they can't be trusted is, to be frank, rather silly. I don't know what it is you have against researchers, but I hope you realize that people don't just make gimmicks about crocodile hatchings in some devious way like they did with the Piltdown man. False evidence is used only in fields that are controversial and where there is a lot more money floating around, such as in climate science or evolution. Definitely not herpetology.

In any case, I got the information I needed. I'll try the experiment anyway, and if anyone is interested I will be happy to post my results when the eggs hatch. Until then, wish me luck and continue this discussion, but I'm taking a little break.

Have a nice day and thanks for the info,

crocacutus

One last thing to add is that despite existing smells, pretty much all baby snakes and crocs hunt by MOVEMENT. If it was for smell they could start on F/T pinks, yet whats the % that START on live??

this might be done with the well used "mice bedding" not the mice itself
-----
"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

>>this might be done with the well used "mice bedding" not the mice itself

Yup, I mentioned that in another post. I think I'd use nesting material rather than bedding/substrate from the rest of the cage, in order to minimize bacterial contamination.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

ahhh yes good thought
-----
"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

rat turd....

kinda gross wording.....but yea....

bedding will dry my ball eggs....

animal products (skin) will rot and draw scuttle flies...

balls....I have them in incubators....and there are holes...

....balls....aaaaah.....so far....6.2 pieds, 0.4 lesserbees ,one paradox....3.3 pastel ghosts, 3 ghosts ,8 albinos, hets,an enchixpastel enchi, pastels het clown ,YB, pastels, and a dozen or more batches to go....!!!....aaaa....what shall be next....

...yea yea yea....Ocean CO and ST mary's too....tried the StMary tonight with food...fresh sheds....pray for me....!...

and the Tyrrells should get here in the morning.........LOL

.....
.
.good luck....rub an egg today.....!...Smucker's...
-----
too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

I was thinking a rat turd rubbed into the eggs....

really....they're wet enough...

...I didn't get to it yet....but I will....my balls all start on mice....I want to try rat....

....I'll use albino eggs....

...really....
-----
too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

The fact that Jeff thinks its a dumb idea makes me think there may be some truth to it or at least it should be studied.

I started spray painting half my eggs today with pinky goo

-----
"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

--< : < > < > < > < > < >~~~

Doug L

np

Whereintheheck did you find that picture??? LOL!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Good luck with the eggs. There is too little information about your friends eastern hatchlings all dying randomly for anyone to come up with a reasonable conclusion, so I wouldn't worry about that happening to you.

I personally would separate the hatchlings as soon as they are out of the eggs.

As far as the egg painting goes, I think it is a "croc" of BS and would have to see a REAL study with REAL results before believing otherwise, not just a bunch of speculation from a couple of internet geniuses, lol. I don't think it's needed (even if it was proven to influence hatchling snakes) as the previous statement that hatchling milks prefer lizards should not be a blanket statement for all milks. There is very, very little chance of MOST eastern milks EVER encountering a lizard in the wild. (Sure there are some aras where skinks and eastern milks overlap, but much more area, I believe, where easterns are found that no lizards occur.) And as you've stated, you live in an area with NO lizards.

Once again good luck and post pictures when they hatch!

For size reference, this is a day old pinkie. It's pretty amazing what these guys can actually eat at such a small size.

-----
Joe

>>
>>
>>As far as the egg painting goes, I think it is a "croc" of BS and would have to see a REAL study with REAL results before believing otherwise, not just a bunch of speculation from a couple of internet geniuses, lol.

Errr.....I already provided you with refs for "real" studies of this effect in several different species. If you want to read the full studies for yourself, all you have to do is look up those refs.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>As far as the egg painting goes, I think it is a "croc" of BS and would have to see a REAL study with REAL results before believing otherwise, not just a bunch of speculation from a couple of internet geniuses, lol.
>>
>>Errr.....I already provided you with refs for "real" studies of this effect in several different species. If you want to read the full studies for yourself, all you have to do is look up those refs.
>>-----
>>----
>>
>>0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
>>2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
>>1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
>>1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
>>0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
>>2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
>>1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

ERRRRRRRRR ..... WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MILKSNAKES HERE GENIUS!!!!!!
-----
Joe

>>ERRRRRRRRR ..... WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MILKSNAKES HERE GENIUS!!!!!!

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jeff: this effect has already been documented in all five classes of vertebrate animals, including reptiles. What makes you think that milksnakes would be unique amongst the entire subphylum vertebrata?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

If I can talk 5 people you know into jumping off a bridge......I MUST be able to talk you into it too right? LMAO!

>>If I can talk 5 people you know into jumping off a bridge......I MUST be able to talk you into it too right? LMAO!

Tsk Jeff, that's just silly.

I'll ask you again: what makes you think that milksnakes, or snakes in general, would be unique amongst all five vertebrate classes?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

NO parental care. DER. I need my own late night show, but you need to find these answers here....

www.backyardchickens.com/forum/

>>NO parental care. DER. I need my own late night show, but you need to find these answers here....

Derrr, yourself. All five vertebrate classes, remember? That includes amphibians as well as fish.

Try again, Jeff. What makes you think that milksnakes would be unique amongst all five vertebrate classes?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Fish show parental care, I'm looking at a mouth brooder as we speak. Amphibs show care, some rainforest tree frogs have been known to carry their tadpoles from high in the trees down to suitable water sources. Not sure if ANY parental care has ever been shown past the hatching stage in snakes......

>>Fish show parental care, I'm looking at a mouth brooder as we speak. Amphibs show care, some rainforest tree frogs have been known to carry their tadpoles from high in the trees down to suitable water sources. Not sure if ANY parental care has ever been shown past the hatching stage in snakes......

Nice try, but those are very limited cases -- not the general reality in those classes. I don't know the specific types of frogs studied for these effects, but it would likely be one of the easily-obtained common laboratory species -- not anything exotic. I do know that sockeye salmon have been used, amongst other fish, in the fish studies. No parental care there.

Try again, Jeff.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You ask me for info, I give you pertinent info. Show me any SNAKE that shows parental care. Go to www.backyardchickens.com/forum/ PLEASE, they want you over there! There are some people saying they found new AMAZON chickens!! You can rule the roost! You might even find a single follower there, you wont find any here.

>>You ask me for info, I give you pertinent info. Show me any SNAKE that shows parental care. Go to www.backyardchickens.com/forum/ PLEASE, they want you over there! There are some people saying they found new AMAZON chickens!! You can rule the roost! You might even find a single follower there, you wont find any here.

Tsk, Jeff, blustering and blowing won't make you any less wrong.

Nobody ever claimed that any snakes DO show parental care. Since embryonic learning has been proven to occur in both amphibians and fish that do NOT show parental care, this characteristic is irrelevant.

Try again, Jeff.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'm not a prophet, I don't need followers.

African rock pythons, Python sebae. Scientists claim to have observed parental care past the hatching of the eggs.

crocacutus

>>I'm not a prophet, I don't need followers.

LOL!

>>
>>African rock pythons, Python sebae. Scientists claim to have observed parental care past the hatching of the eggs.

That's very interesting. Do you know what sort of care has been observed?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Not scientific proof, but interesting things to think about!

----------

"To date, the African rock python (Python sebae) is the only snake in the world that actually “cares” for its young. Typically depositing a clutch of 20 to 90 eggs, female rock pythons have long been known to encircle and vigorously defend their egg clutches until they hatch. This is a tactic many boid snake species perform (Mehrtens 64).

Before the early 21st century, it was thought rock python’s parental care ended there. But new discoveries suggest females of the species keep their young near them for more than four months after hatching. These young snakes enjoy their mother’s protection from potential predators. Few birds of prey or monitor lizards will move upon a 20-inch-long hatchling rock python lying close within the coils of its 17-foot-long mother. Field research herpetologists speculate the warmth absorbed by the mother python during the day helps to sustain the young snakes’ high body temperatures as she coils about them at night. Mother snakes might be a rare occurrence, but they exist."

http://www.reptilechannel.com/kid-corner/beyond-beginners/bad-snake-myths.aspx

----------

"Parental care is best documented in squamates, where females have been reported to remain with their eggs after oviposition in over a hundred species (Shine 1988a,c). In most species, care is restricted to the defense of nest sites. However, in a few, including the pythons, females coil around their eggs, defending them against predators and warming them by shivering thermogenesis and, in some, they aid and defend newly hatched young (Shine 1988a,c). Though the belief that female snakes swallow their young to protect them from predators has been widespread from Egyptian times, there is no firm evidence that this occurs (Shine 1988a,c). Biparental care occurs in some crocodiles and possibly in a few snakes, too (Oliver 1956, Shine 1988a,c) while uniparental male care has not been documented.

T. H. Clutton-Brock, The evolution of parental care. Monographs in Behavior and Ecology. 1991, Princeton, NJ, Princeton University Press.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Neonate Aggregations and Maternal Attendance of Young in the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake, Crotalus adamanteus. Joseph A. Butler, Todd W. Hull and Richard Franz. Copeia, Vol. 1995, No. 1 (Feb. 15, 1995), pp. 196-198

"Field studies have shown that neonate aggregations and maternal attendance of young for varying periods after parturition occur in several species of North American viperids (Table 1). A single account of parental attendance in the eastern diamondback rattlesnake (Crotalis adamanteus) by Meek (1946) has been criticized as unscientific (Klauber, 1972; Somma, 1990). Wright and Wright (1957) found 15 newborn eastern diamondbacks associated with a gopher tortoise burrow in Georgia. Means (1985) stated that neonates of C. adamanteus stay together near the site of parturition until the first molt is complete (about 10 days) but made no mention of the mother's presence. Parental attendance of young, however, has been noted by D. B. Means (pers. comm.) on four occasions. In this paper, we report three observations of neonate aggregations, adult attendance, or both in the eastern diamondback rattlesnake. We also review the literature and discuss the significance of these phenomena."
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Coincidence. Lair. Not evidence.

>>Coincidence. Lair. Not evidence.

Phhhhhht.

In the first place, it wasn't just one coincidence -- there were a series of observations. In the second place, you're forgetting the sentence "We also review the literature and discuss the significance of these phenomena."

If you want to know more about parental care in these snakes, go read the paper so you can see their review of the literature and read their discussion.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I found a bit more info -- Rana temporaria and Rana sylvatica are two of the species that have been used to demonstrate this effect in amphibians.

No parental care there.

Try again, Jeff.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters