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In 2006 I was able to acquire this adult male import with very unusual coloring and an unusual belly pattern.

In 2008, I bred this male to a normal female and produced a clutch of normal looking animals. I sold a 1.1 pair to Deborah Broadus-Muskauski and in 2010, she bred the hets to each other. Out of a 5 egg clutch, there were these 2 super bright animals with the same belly pattern and the head and neck blushing of the original male.

Introducing the first pair of CB Lentigo Ball Pythons!

got pics of the hets? very neat looking trait by the way

>>got pics of the hets? very neat looking trait by the way

Trying to get snakes to lie still is a feat I have yet to accomplish, but I did the best I could. If any pics need to be retaken for clarity, you need only ask.

Female 100% Het from Steve / through Harald Moore (keeping chain of ownership clean)

Male 100% Het:

66% Het (Normal looking)

Visuals

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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

they sure look like pastels to me. why would you choose that name if they turn out to be something new?
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

I wanted saffron as the name but since Deb proved out the hets, we agreed on this name instead.
They do look similiar to pastels except these are recessive.
Not co-dom.
Here is a female 100% het that I have here.

and here are the 2 100% het sibs that Deb bred.
Dam

Sire

you need to do more breeding to prove that two relatively normal looking animals are hets for a recessive pastel. They look exactly like pastels. produce a few clutches first before you declare anything. I would bet she had a male pastel as a backup breeder in with that female or something like that. E
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

2 normals will not produce a pastel.

AND....the belly is completely different from a pastels in both coloration and pattern.

I guess you missed the part where I suggested she bred a pastel to it?
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Evan,

These are not pastels.
They are different.

i agree 100%!!! not pastels...but what are they?

they sort of have a head like a hypo, but no hypo fade????

nice looking hatchlings none the less.

Pitoon

>>Evan,
>>
>>These are not pastels.
>>They are different.
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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

Steve and I agree that more work needs to be done; much more. First we have to also prove that this isn't a fluke (unlikely) with the incubation period (for the naysayers). We plan to do by pairing my proven pair again and adding Steve's unproven female to the mix. If things pan out, we will (hopefully) produce a male visual to put back to the females. After this is done. The male visual needs to be put to some of the more common morphs. I am thinking of using Pastel, since this is the most commonly recognized morph as our base; Steve may also have other ideas. From there, it should be easy (I hope) to spot any differences that the combination of genes would create in the base morph.

We just wanted to put a "heads up" out there.

>>i agree 100%!!! not pastels...but what are they?
>>
>>they sort of have a head like a hypo, but no hypo fade????
>>
>>nice looking hatchlings none the less.
>>
>>Pitoon
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Evan,
>>>>
>>>>These are not pastels.
>>>>They are different.
>>-----
>> Homepage
>> My BLOG
>> 2010 European Shows
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

If the original animal is a male, why do you need to produce a male in order to breed to the females? wouldn't you just take the original "homozygous" male and breed him to the female hets? Not only would you have a higher ratio of the new morph, but you wouldn't have to raise a male up and hope that he wanted to breed right away....

>>If the original animal is a male, why do you need to produce a male in order to breed to the females? wouldn't you just take the original "homozygous" male and breed him to the female hets? Not only would you have a higher ratio of the new morph, but you wouldn't have to raise a male up and hope that he wanted to breed right away....

That is a good question. Steve did not offer the male, and I did not ask. Breeding loans are risky as it is, and I do not want to push anyone further than their comfort zone allows.
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

So he'll let you use his female het, but not his male? If i'm going to trust someone with one of my animals, chances are I'd trust them with two...

Sanchezk,

You are assuming things without understanding the nature of the situation. You know what they say about the word Assume???

Wall2Wall.... i know that it just makes an @$$ of you and me, but I figure if i had a new morph and really wanted to prove it out, I'd prefer to breed homo to het, not het to het.... just my opinion...

>>you need to do more breeding to prove that two relatively normal looking animals are hets for a recessive pastel. They look exactly like pastels. produce a few clutches first before you declare anything. I would bet she had a male pastel as a backup breeder in with that female or something like that. E
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>>Evan Stahl Reptiles
>>www.evanstahl.com

I'll just come right out and say it. This is NOT a Pastel. A Pastel has green eyes and a purplish head. This animal has none of those traits.

I am going to ignore the implication that I am anything but honest.
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

I have produced hundreds of pastels over many years and they do not all have purple heads and noticible green eyes post shed. After shed many have a slightly lighter head and dark looking eyes.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

after looking at the 2 "hets" they have me thinking. look at the amount of blushing and flames. not exactly "normal" borderline yes but maybe these are a non exciting co-dom.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

im inclined to agree, the hets look just a bit off normal, id lean more towards really subtle co-dom
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

>>im inclined to agree, the hets look just a bit off normal, id lean more towards really subtle co-dom
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>>www.bamreptiles.webs.com
>>www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

Ummm, how does one get a Co-dom off two Normal looking animals? If they were co-dom, it would stand to reason that ONE of the pairing, at least, must be visual.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the basic workings of genetics?
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

the basic understanding is correct, but, to me those two "normals" display very subtle differences, a bit more than is withing the standard deviation of most normals.

to make a definitive conclusion, we would need to see more of the "100% hets". if they all look the same as those, reason would lead to the belief that they are just another very sublt co-dom morph like yellow bellies, specials, or things like that.
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

What I think he is saying is that what you think are "normals" aka 100% het for your new trait are actually the single codom, and what you hatched out is the super form.
If that makes more sense.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

It makes sense. Thanks!

>>What I think he is saying is that what you think are "normals" aka 100% het for your new trait are actually the single codom, and what you hatched out is the super form.
>>If that makes more sense.
>>-----
>>"What is man without the beasts?
>>If all the beasts were gone,
>>men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
>>For what happens to the beasts,
>>soon happens to men.
>>All things are connected."
>>
>>-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

yup thats what i meant, sorry i might have worded it too technical lol
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

>>yup thats what i meant, sorry i might have worded it too technical lol
>>-----
>>www.bamreptiles.webs.com
>>www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

Not really, I slipped gears. I am used to thinking of Normals as Normals (some are more obviously hets) than a Normal (by all appearances and purposes) masquading as an actual Morph.
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

The name Saffron has already been used.

Great looking project Steve!

Take care,

Harlin

Hey Steve,
I forgot to add...I do think the "hets" used to create this new morph have a funny look to them. They would be the type I would hold back as a dinking project.
The hets do have a visual difference from the standard "normals"...in my opinion....does that make them co-dom?
Regardless of the pattern of inheritance, co-dom or recessive... the homozygous form looks great!
They do not look like pastels.
And they do change as they mature.
I owned an adult female import that looked identical to your original male. I had thought about purchasing casper back when you first advertised him....I wish I had!
Do you still have him?
Congrats!
Even if you were not the first person who got to prove it out...your hold-backs should go for you this coming season...Right?
Take care.

Your friend,
Harlin

.

its cool that their is a new recessive morph but not many people will want a recessive pastel!
hopefully it will be crazy different(than pastel) when mixed with other morphs. who know mix it with pastel and see what happens.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Let's see what they look like after a few sheds...could be the kind of thing that actually changes over time (I believe the toffee does that)...never know.

That's really interesting...although I see where some people may confuse them with pastels. They don't display the blushing that most pastels do...white/purple blushing on the head and backs. In fact, they almost have a "red head" quality.

W. Smith

Congrats on This Project Steve.. Who knows what they'll turn into this is just a pre shed photo right? Who cares what Others Think.. You made them and they are Defferent looking then pastels .. Keep US Updated on Them Id like to see them in 2 months.

Van
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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

>>Congrats on This Project Steve.. Who knows what they'll turn into this is just a pre shed photo right? Who cares what Others Think.. You made them and they are Defferent looking then pastels .. Keep US Updated on Them Id like to see them in 2 months.
>>
>> Van
>>-----
>>Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

No, they aren't pre-shed photos. The animals had fully shed.
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

very nice! i would guess codom as well. the "hets" are subtle but visible. and that head blushing is sweet.
congrats
howard

Very interesting! Grats on the hard work you put into that project and although they look similar to a pastel, there are differences.

Here's to lots of good combos that look VERY different.

Justin
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J. Kobylka Reptiles
JKR 2010 Birthing Records

Warning: Snakes have been shown to cause death in laboratory rats.

Will be interesting to see what they look like at around 500 plus grams. Its hard to tell from these photos but if they are recessive, the babies remind me somewhat of Greg Grazianis G1 hypos (which are a non compatible form of ghost). Or maybe something similar ?

Eitherway, congrats on proving the project out .... although I agree you should now try and prove the hets as well to know what you are working with.

cheers, John
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John Berry
Designer Morphs, 2nd edition - totally updated, hardback edition due in the USA - end of July.

I will post photos later of the original clutch.
This may shed some light on whether I hatched hets or codoms.

good for you steve. i remember when you get that boy in, seems soooo long ago. i hope the BEST for this project. it couldnt have happened to a better person.

And dont let the pessimism of the nay-sayers get to you. Keep up the good work.

To address the codom theory, here is a head shot of one of the original hets I produced. Odd that it also has the black outlining on the head. Never much thought of that before.

Same snake with a full body shot

Post first shed of this same female

A few of the hets together

More breeding will definitely need to be done.

What did the first mother who was breed to that male look like ?

May be she is the one carring something special. Might just be something like a more "yellow" color and this being selective breeding and not a "morph".

But I hope you are right. Hopes things goes well for you !
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love this world, don't hate it.

Awesome looking morph! Congrats! I can't wait to see how this mixes in with other morphs!

Deb,
I think these animals are AWESOME and I would encourage you to continue in a forward and positive direction with them! Just never mind what opinions have been offered here, you know what you are doing.....go for it!

Best of Luck to you,

Susan
SSNAKES Reptiles

Thank you.

>>Deb,
>>I think these animals are AWESOME and I would encourage you to continue in a forward and positive direction with them! Just never mind what opinions have been offered here, you know what you are doing.....go for it!
>>
>>Best of Luck to you,
>>
>>Susan
>>SSNAKES Reptiles
>>
>>
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www.debscaptivebredballpythons.com

"All big things in this world are done by people who are naive and have an idea that is obviously impossible." ~Frank Richards~

I definitely would throw them into some enchi's and fire's. It never gets boring in the ball python world..