Reptile & Amphibian Forums

maybe our approach to getting the law changed is the problem. Maybe we need to compromise a little. As much as it may irk us, its possible that compromise is the answer to our problem. Here in Ca. snake hunters tried to legalize zonatas, and they succeeded, but we had to give a little in exchange. What we gave was our privacy. In order to get a permit to keep more than one zonata, the legal limit, we have to get a propogation permit. In so doing, we allow F&G the ability to search our premises at their pleasure. Its kind of a win win. We get to keep a few z's, but we have to mind ourselves. Fish and game wins because they get to legally raid your house, which apparently is really cool to them.
Im thinking that we should try to approach this dilemna in the same way. If there was a snake stamp that could be purchased in addition to a hunting license, a stamp that came with the understanding that you give up your right to privacy, maybe we could make some headway. How it would work, is when you get stopped, you'll let the warden know youve got a stamp, and you're snake hunting. He then can legally search your vehicle to enforce any violation. P&W could make bag limits as they see fit, and since they can enforce these limits more easily, they might like the idea. Most of us are good guys and are only looking for a few select animals. Were arent causing any harm. We're at least a little consciensous. There are, however, quite a few bad seeds. These guys should get busted, and with a stamp and some cooperation from the good guys, maybe they will.
So, we give them the right to search our vehicles, and the right to impose limits, they give us the right to hunt snakes again. Obviously it would be good if we could help them make some reasonable limits, but either way its a step forward. This approach worked here, so maybe it will work there.

Were you hassled at all this year? Feel free to shoot a pm if you want more privacy. Just curious.

BW,

StevenX

Problem is that there is no way at all to know the difference between a captive animal that is out there for some reason (trade / sell / breeding loan) and one that was just taken. And with the current non-game permit system in place there is no need to do bag limits either, that should be addressed by the permits with the commercial permit holders turning in records on everything to collect data.

Simple fact is that we would herp the ROW because we enjoy it as a hobby and social event, it is cheaper and easier to stay home and deal with captive stock anyway. The only people really hurt by this are the ones that live in the areas that we are being chased out of.. you can still get your critters every spring as they hatch. But I admit it is still not as fun as putting in the time and effort to find something out on the rocks.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

to concede that all snakes in your vehicle would be assumed to be wildcaught snakes. If you get pulled over, you tell them you're snake hunting. If you have snakes in your vehicle, and you're over the limit, regardless if they're wild or captive, you will be cited. When you buy the stamp and sign that you have read all the regulations, you'll be aware of what is legal. This is a good idea. Hopefully someone will expand on it. At this point P&W has very limited ability to enforce anything. If we give them the ability to enforce reasonable laws, by giving up a few rights, I think it'll work oiut for everyone. Instead of blowing up and crying about what should and shouldnt be, lets take small steps hopefully we can make some progress.

something like this:
By purchasing this stamp you are legal to collect snakes from roadways. If pulled over, you will let a warden search your vehicle. All snakes found in vehicle will be considered wildsnakes and will count toward the limit. P&W can log the snakes found in your vehicle and if you are stopped subsequently can add the snakes found then to your total bag limit. If at any point he bag it is exceeded a violation will be issued. By signing for the stamp you are aware that any snakes found in your posession while hunting will be considered wild snakes. IF stopped at a point in time when not hunting, you do not have to give up your right to search. However, if a warden has a reasonable suspicion that youre collecting a search is warranted. More brainstorming will be necessary. I just got a call

Where do they stop, how many should they be, what data are they based on... and they should under no circumstances included captive produced stock and how do you seperate animals from year to year once you get them home or tell the WC from the CB?

The bag limits thing sounds OK on the road, but once you get home or have to live in TX with it then it will turn ugly and useless.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I do like the idea of a herp stamp for recreational collecters. The commercial collecting permit requires reporting and I would not mind reporting being required for recreational collecting as well.

I do not like the idea of every animal in your vehicle being automatically assumed to be wild caught. I have been known to bring 20 or 30 captive born graybands out to sell. Most times they are back in the hotel but if I am moving between locations or the hotel has poor security I will sometimes have them in my vehicle.

There are actually many occasions where one would need to transport captive born herps. True most of them would not involve having them on you while hunting but the problem is if you are not hunting and get stopped. I realize this would be a rare situation but I wouldn't want it to become where anytime you had cb herps in you vehicle you had to worry about being stopped. A game warden could actually stop people anywhere in the whole state, not just the trans-pecos. I'm thinking about like if you were a legal vendor at a herp show in Austin or something and you just happened to be stopped on the way going to it or going home.

Overall I think your idea has ALOT of merit but I think we'd need to consider alot of variables before we would make all transportation a potential defacto violation of bag limits.

it seems important to us, but in reality the fact of the matter is they just dont like us. They being the wardens, sheriffs, etc. You can present them with all the data, have hundreds of phds lecture them and it would do no good. The permit idea is different. They would actually get something out of it. Since they dont like us, present them with a chance to do more enforcing, and they might listen. If anybody's got Hubb's MT KIng book, read the chapter about the fight to legalize Zonatas. All the info in the world didnt mean squat to the commitee, but they loved the idea of increased enforcement abilities. Im starting to think this whole thing is hopeless anyways. All anyone wants to do is gripe, complain, and they cant keep focused on anything positive. Instead they'd rather squabble with the more radical people, or talk about incidents, and how they were treated. Who cares at this point. Its like getting bit by a dog. Id personally rather kill the dog than sit and [bleep] to everyone about the incident, or preach about how the dog violated my rights. Why waste the time and energy. Oh well.

Here’s a comparison of key factors in a few states:

California
1. Public land to private land ratio: 42.63%
2. Population density per sq. mi: 234.4
3. Road cruising: Yes
4. Walking right of way: Yes
5. Bag/possession limits: Yes
6. Spotlighting: No
7. Native commercialization: Yes

Arizona
1. Public land to private land ratio: 71.50%
2. Population density per sq. mi: 55.8
3. Road cruising: Yes
4. Walking right of way: Yes
5. Bag/possession limits: Yes
6. Spotlighting: No
7. Native commercialization: No

Nevada
1. Public land to private land ratio: 83.26%
2. Population density per sq. mi: 23.4
3. Road cruising: Yes
4. Walking right of way: Yes
5. Bag/possession limits: No
6. Spotlighting: Unknown
7. Native commercialization: Unknown

Texas
1. Public land to private land ratio: 1.12%
2. Population density: 91.3
3. Population density per square mile WEST TEXAS: under 10!!!
4. Road cruising: No
5. Walking right of way: No
6. Bag/possession limits: No
7. Spotlighting: No
8. Native commercialization: Yes

Here’s my take from all this.

California has 2.5 times the population density of Texas. That translates into many more vehicles on the roads. Yet, residents are free (and safe) to hunt reptiles on California roads and right of ways even at night in densely populated suburban areas. The state has 26 times the population of West Texas, so the safety issue, as most of us already know, is a red herring. Note the public land ratios of states like California, Arizona and Nevada compared to Texas. In these states, national forests provide access to vastly greater proportions of “commercially viable” reptile and amphibian populations than Texas. In Texas, the vast majority of reptile and amphibian populations are protected behind the fences of private land, so the idea that recreational take can affect a statewide, regional or local populations is also a red herring. So, how has TPWD managed to pull the wool over the eyes of reasonably intelligent members of the Texas legislature who should be working to provide the maximum amount of freedoms to its residents (especially now when government intrusion into our lives is at an all time high)? By referring to roads as wildlife sanctuaries…LOL.

good job putting together some real numbers on all this, nobody can argue with data... granted they can ignore it, but they can not argue with it.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Great post. This is the kind of info that needs to get into the hands of Texas' legislature.