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I took these pics of my male hypo glades today but, I didn't notice the blotched tongue till putting them on the computer!
Jeff

>>I took these pics of my male hypo glades today but, I didn't notice the blotched tongue till putting them on the computer!
>>Jeff
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Cool! and really like that hypo. My female was more that tone and now is getting the white saddling. I like yours!
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

That's it torture us with such small pictures. Maybe it's something in their genes, because my everglades has a red tongue with a black stripe going down the middle. Now com'n, lets see full body pics of that little glowing beauty.

Some would argue you do not have a pure Glades due to presence of black pigment on the tongue. One of the old distinquishing characteristics of glades was a solid red tongue. Black pigment on the tongue indicating a visiting yellow rat in the mix LOL!! Granted, these old characteristics may be a bit outdated with new range information, etc. being uncovered all the time. There are or were some hardcore breeders who kept and bred only those "glades" exhibiting the old time characteristics. Not sure how much that has changed over the years.

Kevin, I'm not sure what you mean by black pigment on his tongue but,the only black on this snake is in the pupils of his eyes!The lighter areas on his tongue(which may be replaced with black had he not been hypo)are actually lavender or pinkish in color. Jeff

Jeff, my reply was to ChrisEricas post regarding the black stripe down his glades rat tongue. I always understood any black pigmentation on the tongue indicated yellow rat gene flow. I read this in an old Dick Bartlett book about corns and ratsnakes. With so much information flooding the hobby these days, I am sure the old definitions are changing regarding this variant of ratsnake. I certainly did not mean to infer your glades wasnt pure, etc. Sorry if you took it that way man!! It is a spectacular animal for sure.

The tongue has a thin black stripe right down the middle. Even if the snake is not pure glades it sure looks like it.

ChrisErica, I agree. Like I said earlier, the characteristics used to identify and separate "glades" from yellows back in the day are probably outdated and just not applicable based on the changes of the environment in the Everglades today and access to once isolated populations from more mainland type individuals. I think the whole Glades as a separate subspecies issue has been argued in the past, with many feeling it is just a more orange color phase of yellow rat. That makes sense to me and captive breeding has kept this phase alive and well, similar to Okeetee corns.

I've heard the "tongue color" explanation as well. And I've seen plenty of Florida ratsnakes with tongues mottled in black and red. My question is: Are orangeness and tongue color the only thing that make Everglades a "valid" subspecies, or is there something more substantial? Color is usually regarded as a "flimsy" excuse for subspeciation - usually there's a physical body part that's different in order for something to be a subspecies.

Whatever those snakes in this post are, they sure are beautiful!

Tim

Good point Tim. I have always felt the color/tongue characteristics were weak as well. I have never personally read anything definitive to support the validity of E. o. rossalleni other than those characteristics and some range data. I suspect the "glades" may have BEEN a relict isolated group of yellow rats at one time in the Everglades that developed their own unique phenotypical expressions, but were never genotypically different from E. o. quadrivittata. Now that these areas are drained and accessible from the mainland forms, more dilution of the "glades" phase is being observed. An interesting point is that some of the discussions on the kingsnake forum are parallel to this one with respect to subspecies of the getula complex. Are we really only seeing geographical variation of the same snake similar to what we see in E. guttata over its wide range? Are there any distinct scalation differences to subspeciate the obsoleta complex other than pattern/coloration? If not, what is the basis of the subspeciation we see today? I am leaning to the thought more and more that our efforts as breeders to preserve subspecies is actually just preserving locality phases of the same animal. If you remove the coloration and pattern of a yellow, glades, black and texas rat and put those animals side by side, what would we deduce?? Please keep in mind some of these questions are a bit rhetorical and not really meant to be "answered", but interesting comments and insight from others are appreciated LOL!!!

Looks like a glades to me, and a Killer one at that!
Jeff

OOoops! My bad,lol! But,even tho you weren't talking about mine,it does make me wonder if the lighter areas on his tongue would be black if he weren't hypo.This has been a very cool topic and makes me like rat snakes even more! Take Care!
Jeff

Thats unique.Great looking snake.
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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"