Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm the one at the root of many of the rumors going around which probably started with Roy and a few other herpers who were around to hear me complain about getting stopped in Sanderson.

If anyone is interested in hearing the full story feel free to email me.

I would like to say that the experience was not hostile nor was it intimidating. I consented to search by the game warden and I believe his name was Aguilar. He searched very hard and found a snake bag, my awesome mighty midget tongs and my dbl shafted kick ass furmont stump ripper. He asked if I had animals in my hotel room to which I replied no. He was courteous and he leveled with me in the end and said that he understands that we herpers are passionate and harmless but that he has to do his job. He did seem eager to find a snake on me and he obviously believed there was one hidden in my car given the zeal that he searched with.

I've never been stopped more times than I did on my second trip to the Bend. I spent most of my time in Brewster and Presidio counties. The sherrifs deputies down in southern Brewster county have been giving snake hunters a hard time and I could tell that they were being polite to me in spite of deeper feelings...but the fact is that they were all polite and cordial with me. I was in contact with three deputies and at one point I was technically on private property taking a piss but the deputy still didn't hastle me or waste my time.

I have to be honest and report that none of my encounters with LE were frustrating and in fact all of the above seemed to have decent attitudes in spite of my own frustrated attitude. That being said, I agree with Tanks that we have a lot to be pissed off about and in times of intimidation and misbehavior by LE we shouldn't just submit and sit still, we should raise our voices, cuss and start writing a lot of letters.

It seems like there's at least a substantial enough economy of the avg grayband hunter to allow for trips to the area with hotel expenses, gas, car rentals etc- it's time to start spending out money for lawyers to defend against these citations. What's this "HCU" that I keep hearing about but seeing nothing from?

What needs to happen is money, simple as that. We need to organize money to pay for lawyers to drive out and defend us against these citations and this will give us our day and court and a forum in which to argue. Money needs to be pooled together for the defense of herpers and it needs to be spent on lawyers.

Did exactly what any LE would do in a situation with a suspect. They build empathy, try to establish trust, dig further, establish more trust, dig further... In the end if he found an animal in your vehicle you would have been cited. And no telling what else... If you watch even the most basic cops show, the tactics are the same. I have been fortunate to be friends with officers growing up. Most are nice, but the training is to uphold the law, whether they agree to it or not.

I am glad he was polite to you. But make no mistake, in there eyes, we "Reptile Enthusiasts" are criminals. No different than any other.

I am sorry to hear about your experience this year. It falls in line with many other experiences that are ruining West Texas.

Take Care,

StevenX

Yes, these experiences did superficially ruin a few nights of my trip.

As far as LE behavior- you're not telling me anything that I don't already know. I've taken enough criminal justice/criminal psych. classes in college to understand the methods of officers and the plain and simple fact is that this IS how LE should act. I don't know what you mean by building empathy, I think it's more like building trust.

Your point is valid but incomplete- some LE agents manipulate the situation as you've stated to maximize effectiveness while others do not and are individuals with a bone to pick. The latter is the form of LE that I would complain about, not the LE experiences that I had. Being a polite and courteous officer should be the standard, not a method of manipulation. In cases when it is the latter, so be it...

The problem with buying your legal rights is the fact that it is a form of extortion and now that we have gone that road it is a never ending cycle of buying your liberties and freedoms back, freedoms that were stolen from you. I believe now and always have that I will not pay for my natural born rights to a politician. The other problem is this law is written to take your rights and shift the power to the LE, you have to ask why? The answer is simple it gives them power, with that power they demand more money through budgets, fines, permits and licenses, there is no way we can ever raise the money it would take to buy those rights back. This law passed has allowed for additional agents to be hired and placed in west Texas, now it doesn't raise enough money off the SNAKE BAN so they use these agents in the operation border star and other federally funded ventures, it has become a police state with their actions. This is a money grab that is occurring right under your noses. Whether or not these NAZI"S are nice to you or not, you must demand to insert your rights and not give in to a search, the more rights you give away the less they have to try to take. Eventually all of your Liberties will be taken, you will be given a number oh wait that's already happened. (SOCIALIST SECURITY)
The stupid snake hunting law is so trivial in the scheme of things, do you understand that under the new health care reform there is mention of micro chipping people, if you go to the FDA web site you can watch a video on micro chipping of the American people. This snake hunting thing is merely a little fish, but it is a start to regain your power back over YOUR GOVERNMENT, by THE PEOPLE for THE PEOPLE. read those last words, they used to mean something along time ago.

More people need to rise up, I am not a terrorist im a small business owner, I am patriotic I believe in our military, now that does not mean that I believe that every poor American soldier is sent to do the right thing, but he does what is asked of him for his country, why because he wants to protect YOUR freedoms, my FREEDOMS and I thank god he is there for me. The labeling of American people as terrorist, wacko's, right wing extremists is another means of the government to kill the messenger because they feel threatened by the message. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington were all terrorist then right? No our forefathers where true patriots, that wrote the most perfect document to protect the people from the government, unfortunately they could never see that we would become so weak and give our rights away to the powers to be. Its sad that so many people died to protect you and your liberties, but all of you are to lazy, scared or believe they will go away if you cooperate. WRONG, they are not going away!!!! Start to call your politicians, tell them you are spending part of your vacation outside there office talking to their constituents' about the ludicrous law, they understand the idea of caring a big stick, the media and the education of the people is what scares them. Not you calling them telling them how great of job they are doing and giving them a reach around lol. Make your point known and heard be nice about it but firm, these are kids with candy, if you ask the kid to give you the candy and they don't BUST THEIR LITTLE ASS lol they will hand it right over.

I'm a libertarian, a true to form Milton Friedman following Ayn Rand reading lover of freedom and dispiser of positive rights...BUT, we all unfortunately have to assimilate our feelings of principle with the state of reality. The principle says "yes, let's all rise up and fight for the beliefs that we've been taught to love such as freedom from coercion and freedom to pursue happiness, it's Constitutional!"...but reality is that no individual citizen has enough power or control to do anything meaningful with political or law without having money, it's simply factual to say that money makes political change and not simple principle.

Of course this doesn't apply to social movements before the technology revolution, but now days it takes exposure and organization to fight unjust laws- both of these take money to achieve.

The answer is to combine all of our resources for the fight. We need a good lawyer, not just any lawyer. A good lawyer will know what our avenues are; a good lawyer went to law school and so they'll know how we can raise support and combine efforts. This is what such a lawyer, trained in this specific area, does for a living!

Then someone gets a ticket. Even the LE down there seem to agree that the law is unjust and Aguilar himself seemed to disagree with the law- potentially a manipulation but at the point of his speech he had already search my vehicle and seemed intent to issue a statement to the herping community through me that he has to do his job and that it isn't personal.

So, if even some LE agents understand the irrationality of the law then it shouldn't be too difficult for a good lawyer to make a decent argument in front of a judge. If successful the judge will throw out the case and through precedent (= stare decicis) any future tickets will be thrown out and court and eventually they won't be given out anymore. This happens all the time actually, just look at all of the old laws that are still on the books in TX and yet never get enforced.

Great points but remember this is about much more than unjust searches. If the searches stop you still have the Lacey Act and/or stings to worry about. For me this is a social hobby, I want to able to associate freely with other law abiding hobbists, not have everything driven into secrecy to where you can't even tell your friends you caught an alterna.

They can TRY to come and take your whole alterna collection later on down the road just because you collected one alterna. A misdemeanor hardly any different than catching an undersized fish, could becomes technically a felony Lacey Act violation once you take it home to another state. Or maybe you didn't even collect one but unknowingly bought the captive born offspring of one. Then they take all your alterna and maybe more as "evidence" before you have even been convicted. Maybe unlikely to actually happen but the possibility is very much real. If it does happen, once they take your animals you may as well write them of for dead before you ever get them back even if you are not guilty of anything.

IMHO I do not think they will confiscate any animals unless they actually witness you catching it on the ROW or you admit verbally that you are collecting animals on the ROW.

You like a deer hunter have the right to drive on the ROW and have hunting equipment (gun, bow and arrow, hunting knife, deer bags, hiking boots etc,) in the vehicle. What is the difference with herp collecting equipment? Unless they witness you using the equipment on the ROW or you admit to it, the do not have a case. A deer hunter can drive home with a deer in the pickup, a gun in the cab, and still have blood on his hands and not get cited for shooting the deer on the ROW unless it is witnessed by LE. Why should you be cited for having a snake in the car? There is no law that I know of that says you cannot carry a snake around with you from one point to another, unless it is a protected specie.

I have been stopped, questioned, allowed a search and admitted to having a snake with me. I was not cited nor did the officer conficate the snake. Nice guy??? or was it because he did not have any evidence where I actually got the snake from????

IMHO

ECTimaeus

...even as correct as you are it makes no difference when someone is sitting on the side of the road- the LE agent is in charge and has all of the control and discretionary power. They can write you a ticket for just about anything that's remotely related to a law and then you will have your day in court. If they made mistakes or abused their power it would come out in court but when we're in the field we have no way of saying "hey, that's illegal" with the expectation that they will change their behavior. This is a problem for many of us who travel great distances to get there. They could confiscate any animals they want to, it's at their discretion.

i just may hafta come out during deer season...shoot a deer( some other game) with an outta state license, of course, swerve, so i get stopped and searched..., then do the same in alterna season....carrying legal snakes...and there's our outta state case....wow should not be that involved....

I agree with everything you said, basicly you need to be seen catching a snake, or admit you did, in order to be cited.

I wasn't talking about getting caught on the road. I was talking about getting caught after the fact, by telling other hunters. If you tell other hunters you took a snake off the road and you happen to live out of state, then later on down the line you might find yourself the target of a sting operation. Now your misdemeanor has become a felony Lacey Act violation.

We all know what happens then. They come into your home with a warrant and take every herp you have that could possibly be considered evidence. While you wait for trail there is an extememly good chance most or all your animals will die in the hands of USFWS.

This could even happen if you unknowingly buy a captive born herp that is the progeny of illegally collected breeding stock. You would likely be found not guilty but whatever animals they take as evidence would probably die before you even got a trial.

That's why I say reducing searches is tantamount to winning the battle but losing the war. Even if one gets away with collecting, the social aspect of hunting alterna will be lacking.

Why would the USFWS enforcement branch get involved with a native USA species that is not listed under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended? The provisions of the ESA do not authorize or mandate any such action on the part of this agency, unless illegal transport of a listed species occurs. For provisions of the Lacey Act to be brought to bear, it must be demonstrated that there has been interstate or international transport of a listed species, or parts or products thereof derived from a listed species. Lampropeltis alterna is not protected by the State of Texas, nor is it listed under the ESA, so I'm unclear what your point is here regarding imposition of the Lacey Act. The only way this could occur is if this species is transported across international borders and it can be demonstrated that the it was taken in Mexico, where it is protected by Mexican wildlife laws and therefore falls under the provisions of the Lacey Act because of international agreement with Mexico. Call me an idiot or whatever else you want to, but you are misinformed about the statutes of federal law.

As a last comment, all of you who live in Texas can have the most impact on your stupid state laws...don't vote for the ignorant politicians who support them, or better yet vote them out of office in your next election. There are far graver environmental issues of significance in this country than a handful of people picking up snakes along rural roadways that are like to get smashed by vehicles at some point. What your current laws in this category represent isn't wildlife resource management, it's prejudiced manipulation to achieve personal agendas. If non-game resource management was a real issue, you would see more action on activities that persecute particular species in Texas, and you Texans know exactly what I mean by that. So, if you don't like what your elected representatives are doing with your nickel and how it is affecting you--then tell them to change their ways of lawmaking or prepare to pack it in with the next election cycle. Stop all the whining, or worse, advocacy of governmental overthrow and rebellion because that just brands you as extremists. Stop being sheep herded around by ignorant, prejudiced redneck fools that simply don't like strangers hanging around their town. This is 2010, not 1870, so things don't get resolved by shooting it out with your nemesis. Wake up and take political action if you don't like what's going on, you don't need money-hungry lawyers or radicals fomenting anti=government actions, you need to garner political change in your state by making it clear to your elected officials who they are working for.

OK, sorry for the tirade everyone.

Well said.
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Steve W.

Can they go after it? See Section 3372 (a)(2)(A) below.

§ 3372. Prohibited acts

(a) Offenses other than marking offenses

It is unlawful for any person--

(1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;

(2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce--

(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law;

Will they go after it? HIGHLY doubtful, especially since alterna is not protected, or endangered, or threatened, or anywhere near preservation status. Besides, hopefully this particular violation of state law is going to be relatively short-lived; a very sad blip in the history of Texas herpetology. Just stay on your toes...

Robert

I've been told that USFWS teamed up with the Utah wildlife agency(not sure what the name is) in Operation Slither. They served my friend Richard Hoyer with a warrant for Rubber Boas, no other species were involved. At some point USFWS did drop out of the operation, at least as it pertained to my friend, and Utah's state agency took over. Maybe USFWS only got involved because other targets in the sting had endangered species and/or exotics, I don't know. Regardless, what i was told was that USFWS was involved at the begining and when the warrant was served all of his Rubber Boas were confiscated.

I am pretty sure the warrant was only for Southern Rubber Boas but they took all the Rubber Boas he had. In fact he had no Southerns at all. All of them were common Sierra, Rocky Mtn. and Coastal. He had permits for every single one of them and was eventually able to prove it in court. But they still killed over 60% of his boas... In fact, I think it was 60% were dead before the first trial and by the second trial 90% had died.

I apologize, I just realized you said they will not go after something that isn't threatened. Southern Rubber Boas are listed in the state of CA as threatened, so my bringing up my friend's experience with Op Slither wasn't a good parallel to the situation with alterna, since they are not listed.

However, according to the info rpelez posted, it appears that if any animal taken contrary to any state law, is transported across state lines, Lacey Act applies. So it appears that an alterna that's collected on the road is now just as illegal as an alterna that was collected in the state park. USFWS could go after you for collecting an alterna in Big Bend Ranch State Park if you took it across state lines, could they not? Maybe I am wrong.

However, according to the info rpelez posted, it appears that if any animal taken contrary to any state law, is transported across state lines, Lacey Act applies.

This is the way I understand the Lacey Act as well--I have seen reports of deer hunters getting hit under the provisions of the Act, by taking deer out of season (or otherwise outside the provisions of hunting regs) and then transporting across state lines.

Like this example

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

As far as local incidents are concerned, why not set up a sister NP (to HCU) or an unrelated organization that functions as a TWPD watchdog group and that accumulates a legal defense fund for unreasonable search and seizure incidents. Can that be done? Issue cards to members (I’ll be the first one to join) that states clearly on the card, “in order to protect against unreasonable search and seizures, our members do not consent to a search by employees of Texas Parks and Wildlife”. You hand the warden the card when a search is requested. Each incident will be recorded AND reviewed for reasonable, articulable suspicion (for the stop) and probable cause (for the search). Then, complaints filed with the necessary organizations when abuses occur. Bob Assetto should be the first case. Am I out of control, or what? LOL

Robert

Well I think HCU has already said informally they would offer financhial support any member who fights an unfair ticket. HCU is already a very good vehicle for support, it has a bank account and is all set up to do fundraising should a member ask for assistance. I think we'd be better off putting the bulk of our efforts into increasing membership in HCU and gathering political and public support.

Searches are a minor issue to me. Yes they are serious and eat up your time in the field but they are not the main issue.

Actually, it’s not that minor an issue if search and seizure are the only enforcement tools being used by TPWD to enforce this law. It is the abuse of our rights and not the time in the field that is the supreme and overriding concern. We know what happened to Bob. I sort of wish he had a snake in the vehicle that was lawfully obtained. Now, I’ve heard about this other character, who last year was purportedly given a snake that was lawfully obtained to photograph and release and that was stopped and actually cited for a 62.0031 violation, despite presenting corroborating evidence. If true, this “crap” needs to stop.

Robert

My personal opinion is that it would be wrong to assume that field enforcement, ie. searches and tickets, are going to be the only thing they do. The faction of TPWD that doesn't like us has put ALOT of time and effort into getting this law on the books and into indoctrinating game wardens and local LE against us. IMHO, they will do a sting if we don't get this thing reversed soon. I agree that we currently need to stand up for our rights and not allow unreasonable searches. However, if people are still collecting and just not getting caught, it's only going to make TPWD madder and help create a new generation of wardens, administrators and LE who hate us.

My thing is, I do not want to collect an alterna if I can't freely share the experience with others and I do not want to be worried all the time about them coming in and taking my herps.

Remember, it's not ALL LE...the sheriffs in Sanderson seem to be okay with herpers...provided traffic rules are obeyed. I even had one ask me why I didn't carry a gun when I was out.

I agree it's not all LE. It's not all wardens either and it surely isn't all biologists. Still, a part of TPWD has obviously put alot of effort into passing on their dislike for us to as many wardens and LE as they can.

It is still legal to search for herps and photo them, so the fact that you stopped for a fake snake means nothing, and add to that the fact that a "fake snake" is not an animal and therfore legal to pick up just like trash.... it would not hold water.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Maybe what I mean is undercover operation. I am talking about an undercover agent gathering information that proves you took a snake off the road. There are many ways they can do this, by posing as hunters, on the road or at the hotel. Or the can pose as a buyer and ask for information about the origin of your captive bred stock. They have alot of ways by which they can gain this information and the point is just that, to me anyways, getting away with it is worthless. I want it to be legal so that I can hunt the road, share my experiences with whomever I choose and not have to worry about it. There seems to be an undercover operation somewhere in the US at least once every two years so if this roadban sticks, I think it will happen eventually. People should be aware of this. Hopefully it will motivate them to help get the law changed.

It seems like in truth everybody looses with the reptile sting operations. Most cases I know about fall apart or fall very short in terms of prosecution. So in that sense the agency fails, but the public information released paints such a bad light on herpers that we loose even if we win because the real facts never to seem to make it out after the dust settles. All that makes the press are the "investigation from LE point of view" and "bust from LE point of view" and it never seems that the welfare of the seized animals in the care of LE comes to light and the fact that many details for the prosecution of the case do not hold enough water to make it into a court of records in the first place. Oh and as always in any large collection there is that one animal in poor health or just old and frail and that is the one that makes the press release as an "example" instead of any number of healthy happy animals.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

we just didn't need to enable a LE guy to screw with our day any worse than he did.....

Well, I have one foot in the grave too - sort of. The point is you shouldn't have been stopped. The GW needed reasonable suspicion to stop your vehicle. He didn't have it. I think we both agree on that. If you don't complain about the stop; if that joker from last year won't fight the citation and get it rescinded (if possible), this crap will keep happening over and over again.

Robert

i will pen a letter to twp.....roy i need saul's last name.....there was no papers written, but there should be something in his daily activity sheet???

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Region 1 District 2

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

thanks..

when guys dared me to do things....double-dog dare....i'm still that guy....but there was no citation....cause we didn't violate nuttin....wonder what happened to the guy who killed the indigo???....i gave ect a copy maybe we can do a follow up???

Even though there wasn't a citation written you were stopped for a reason that didn't warrant a search of the vehicle. Seeing collecting equipment or animals in the vehicle without seeing something being picked up on the ROW isn't a valid excuse for a search.
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Steve W.

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Find Your Local Game Warden

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

You are right 100%. But if they are going to cite someone for having a snake in their possession it will be an out of state herper. Most can not finance that kind of fight.
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Steve W.

CORRECT....SIR!!!!!