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Dystocia in a pueblan milk snake

bwaffa Jul 19, 2010 08:54 PM

This happened a few nights ago, but I'm only just now getting a chance to catch up and write about it. Though pueblans are not en vogue right now, this was a very special animal to me. Beyond being one of the "higher dollar" campbelli morphs, she is actually the snake that reignited my childhood interest in milks. I really hate that she checked out so many years before her time.

"Dagny," as I came to call her, was produced in 2006 by Jerry Bedsole from his fourth generation of hypo apricot pueblans. He carried her and and a male in the same bag together to a show in 2008 where I purchased her, and to my surprise she laid her first clutch about a month thereafter. She laid a second clutch last year and has been a problem-free snake for the duration of her time with me, eagerly feeding on whatever I offered her. Although she's always been on the small side, she ate like a champ and always bounced back with weight gain after breeding. I resigned not to attempt any of the pueblan's double or triple clutch tricks, but did pair her this year with an awesome oreo produced by Jeff Sellers.

She went through the entire breeding routine without any incident. I added a nest box for her several days before her pre-lay shed, and I observed her moving in and out of the nest box after shedding. She spent a great deal of time in the nest box right around the period when I expected her to drop eggs, and when she hadn't deposited in what I would consider a "normal window of time," I chose to give her a few extra days because she seemed calm and resolved in the nest box, not agitated as I've always read about in egg-binding cases. The morning after I made this decision -- 13 days post-PLS -- I observed her in the nest box with her tail lifted like she was attempting to deposit. When I returned home from work that following afternoon, I found her in the EXACT same contorted position. I knew something was wrong and took her out to check her, but she was already stiff with rigor mortis. My next steps were a complete fool's errand, but I figured I had nothing to lose, so I decided to perform a necropsy to evaluate what went wrong and try to salvage the eggs.

The photomontage that follows documents this very off the cuff procedure. Although dystocia can be caused by a laundry list of factors (e.g. dehydration, inadequate heat, old age, obesity, etc.) my case doesn't seem to fit cleanly into any one paradigm. The necropsy was frustratingly inconclusive. It seems the eggs were just a little too large for her small body.

I don't even think the eggs are viable, but I'll keep them for a few weeks just to see what happens.

Although my necropsy wasn't conclusive, this whole ordeal has been a painful reminder that there's still so much we don't understand about the reproductive physiology of reptiles. We think we've figured them out because we've mastered the art of... introducing a male at the perfect time or something, but there's so much behind the scenes we're only just beginning to appreciate. Nature remains an open book.

Cheers,

Brad


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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

Replies (11)

amazondoc Jul 20, 2010 12:51 AM

Sorry to hear about your beautiful snake. Good luck with the eggs!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

RG Jul 20, 2010 07:10 AM

a few years ago now. I had a large, healthy Amel Honduran that bred for me the first year with no issues. The second year she was full of eggs...the most eggs I've ever seen per overall body length. I did the same examination that you did and the eggs looked exactly the same. (by the way TOP NOTCH photographs!)

The eggs, in my opinion, are bad and were never fertile from the beginning. That is also the main cause for egg binding that I've observed. In my experience, I've never had egg binding issues with good eggs. I only had one other experience with egg binding and dehydration, since then I keep the water dish in with the females and I've never had a problem with them laying in the nest box.

I was fortunate this year, I had 4 females give me 100% slugs...it totally sucks not to get fertile eggs, but it is completely another level of pain to lose a prized female.

Sorry about your loss and hopefully you kept back one of her females from a previous clutch?

-Rusty

bwaffa Jul 21, 2010 09:57 AM

>>The eggs, in my opinion, are bad and were never fertile from the beginning. That is also the main cause for egg binding that I've observed. In my experience, I've never had egg binding issues with good eggs.

This is a really interesting observation, RG. Particularly in light of a lengthy conversation I had with a friend of mine who has some expertise in reproductive physiology. I called her the other night after this incident, and she mentioned that one of the biggest themes in that branch of science is this idea of "maternal recognition of pregnancy." This doesn't refer to any conscious recognition on mom's part, of course, but rather to her body's recognition that eggs are developing so that the necessary hormones are occurring in the bloodstream at the proper time and at the proper levels. My friend, a snake breeder herself, conceded that there is sadly little research on this in reptiles, but mentioned that in other animals, this maternal recognition of pregnancy is mediated by a hormonal "conversation" between the embryos and the gravid female. Although this has yet to be researched and supported, she suspicions that in snakes with infertile eggs, it becomes much easier for this conversation to become "one-sided" and for things to go wrong. Though untested, this seems reasonable to me, and might definitely explain why eggs from dystocic females are frequently nonviable or infertile to begin with.
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JYohe Jul 21, 2010 06:59 PM

sounds feasable......

...most of my egg troubles are with good eggs and cornsnakes and not whole clutches ,just 1 to a few...this year I had a female lay maybe 5 and hold like 15....they came out one by one very slowly over weeks......but they came out....

.....hormones.......ask any woman.....then run....

truly.....sounds like we need to watch for the no fertilized eggs in the clutch theory....

Thanxx.....
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too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

RG Jul 22, 2010 08:36 AM

"maternal recognition of pregnancy."
This doesn't refer to any conscious recognition on mom's part, of course, but rather to her body's recognition that eggs are developing so that the necessary hormones are occurring in the bloodstream at the proper time and at the proper levels.

I like it, because when I get 100% slugs (non fertile eggs) it's obvious (see pic below, sorry for the poor quality, it was taken with a phone).

However, when you have most of the clutch that IS fertile...you can still have a non-fertile egg in the clutch (usually just one) that looks every bit as good as the others. You only know it's not fertile by candling, or just when it starts to rot. So, if the other fertile eggs send a chemical signal to the mother, "hey, develop my outside egg covering" then that would explain why the non fertile eggs still look good!

Notice the one egg in this clutch (4th one in) that wasn't fertile in the pics below. You have to rotate one of the pics in your mind...but you can see it was every bit as "normal" looking as the rest of the clutch.

Very interesting (and logical) explainations.

Thanks again for sharing...

-R

bwaffa Jul 22, 2010 04:53 PM

>>I like it, because when I get 100% slugs (non fertile eggs) it's obvious (see pic below, sorry for the poor quality, it was taken with a phone).
>>
>>However, when you have most of the clutch that IS fertile...you can still have a non-fertile egg in the clutch (usually just one) that looks every bit as good as the others. You only know it's not fertile by candling, or just when it starts to rot. So, if the other fertile eggs send a chemical signal to the mother, "hey, develop my outside egg covering" then that would explain why the non fertile eggs still look good!
>>

I'd never thought of that before, but you're right - I've definitely seen that - and the observation is consistent with the theory... I like your narration too haha!
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JYohe Jul 20, 2010 05:51 PM

in the pics...things I see and do not see

she was thin compared to eggs....

was she small?

eggs are huge...did they go way past her due date ?? they will continue to grow...and the size then might not have been the initial cause.....after they grow too large it will and can be the cause of death....(learn aspiration ...and timing...not saying you don't know just saying IF you don't learn, it's easy)...

there was no clotting at the first egg into her vent...so no tearing....

wasn't twisted from what I see but I can't see the oviduct enough after the egg...

eggs are definately dead...she dies they die...almost always and fast....

sucks...sorry...good luck.....I have NO luck with pueblans....mine are 1.2 and 4 years old?...and total good eggs 0.....I used to triple clutch them (different ones) years ago....now I have 0 luck.....

........temps.....my trouble and yours might have something to do with temps....

.......you had a nest box?....it helps....

.....
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...one of the CraZieS...?...

........JY.......

bwaffa Jul 21, 2010 10:07 AM

>>eggs are definately dead...she dies they die...almost always and fast....

Check out what I wrote to RG. There's definitely a correlation there that a lot of people have noticed. I suspect there's something interesting going on we're just beginning to understand.
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snake_bit Jul 20, 2010 09:15 PM

Sorry about your snakes but I have to thank you for sharing the necropsy pics.Its great when people provide documentation and hard facts instead of hot air.Your photos are great who took them? wife?
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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

bwaffa Jul 21, 2010 10:05 AM

>>Your photos are great who took them? wife?

Thanks, Doug. I actually meant to give a shout out to my girlfriend, Rachel, in my OP. Her camera skills, patience, and thick stomach are the only reason I have those photos to share. Don't plant crazy ideas in her head though - her wife application is still in review! No plans to "pull a Cole" in the immediate future..
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RG Jul 22, 2010 07:57 AM

would take great pictures of that procedure, would have to have serious contention of "wife" status (assuming some other standard things that I would hope are included; rub, love, and feed).

My fiancé would do it...but not when there is blood involved!

-Rusty

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