Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I’ve said this from the very beginning and I’ll say it again. The law has no merit, is not supported by any data and is without a shadow of a doubt, prejudice. With that in mind, we have a case where we can file a lawsuit against the state and/or TPW for enacting such a law. This can be expanded upon over and over again, for example, as I understand it, there are public lands available and used for other hunting, yet not available for collecting herps of any kind. That is one example and I’m sure there are others. The problem is securing the funds to retain a lawyer to make such a fight. If they could be paid out of a settlement from the state/TPW then maybe, but I’m not sure a settlement would be available, that’s for the lawyers to figure out. All I know is that we do have a case where what we do and who we are is extremely misrepresented, particularly by those that are prejudice against us. And because of those people a law has been passed that should not have.

Pull together, get the funding and sue them. Nothing speaks louder than a fat lawsuit.

-----
Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

This is pretty much what I said below- we must get a fund together to pay a defense attorney.

Where are the HCU reps? What has the HCU done so far and how can we all organize a fund like this through the HCU?

Are you a member of HCU? Have you contributed? I appreciate your enthusiasm but at times it sounds more like you are taking jabs at HCU. HCU needs to be more then it's leaders, it needs true supporters that are willing to contribute money, time or both. HCU can make this happen, but it needs us to back it. HCU also needs us, as a whole, to follow as needed, whether it be a short term stand down, or a hard push, we need to work together.
-----
Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

Brad, the last HCU meeting was attended by only 3 people! I know it was tough seeing all our hard work "timed out" at the end of the last legislative session, but we have got to get over it. Demoralization is fatal.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I wouldn't put much stock in attendance. I think we are way to spread out for there to ever be good attendance, unless maybe the meeting is at Roy's place in June, lol.

LIFE MEMBER.......

I'm asking the questions that I are on my mind because I'm genuinely interested in participating. If you can sense my frustration it's because it's there.

Great point Brad. I would absolutely be willing to contribute as much as I possibly could to such a thing. Just filing a lawsuit, if one could be presented in such a way that it is clearly a risk to them, might inspire TPWD to do something before it even goes to trial. Most likey wishful thinking but it would be nice.

Just filing a lawsuit, if one could be presented in such a way that it is clearly a risk to them, might inspire TPWD to do something before it even goes to trial.

It might take more than one (potentially easily-dismissed) lawsuit...perhaps a "death by a thousand tiny cuts" approach to cause them to relent?

There's a guy who advertises in Reptiles Magazine--an attorney who is eager to take up herp-related cases. Anybody contact him?
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I am not familiar with this fellow, but I think we should become familiar with him.

Exploring what can actually be done with a lawsuit would be extremely valuable. For example, if a lawsuit only has the chance to reverse an unjust law, then it doesn't have much teeth. However, if it also has a chance to hit the the state and TPWD in the pocket book, they'll be forced to give us some honest respect.
-----
Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

I called for a lawsuit to enjoin enforcement of this “unnecessary” law shortly after it was passed. At that time, the public (political) climate was a little different. Now, the political climate is anti-government and against more government intrusion in our lives especially when the science, data and facts do not support it. A current case in point: the federal ban on deep sea drilling, challenged by private companies with economic interests that would be financially affected by such a ban. I think the whole deep water drilling ban may be analogous (in a very broad sense) to the plight of the Texas herping community and small towns which have seen their financial base eroded by Section 62.0031. Certainly, the data does NOT support the law. Obviously, the actual basis for the challenge has to be worked out by a competent legal team and the venue will be different, but I’ve provided a link to the actual complaint filed by Hornbeck to get some cut and paste ideas.

Robert
Hornbeck complaint

Good points Brad. If is obvious that herpers have been unfairly targeted for reasons that have NOTHING to do with protecting wildlife or habitat. Few of the players behind this law have any interest in protecting herps and many would not lift a finger to stop non-herpers from killing snakes.

I've long thought about setting up a video camera to document what happens to a large rattlesnake (fake or un-mangled DOR) on the road. I've seen dozens (hundreds?) that appear to have been deliberately run over. I wonder how TPWD would respond to receiving a video documenting dozens of non-herpers swerving to deliberately kill a snake. All the better if we could provide photos of the license plates and drivers. How many of those drivers would receive a citation, or even a warning. My guess is zero.

I was recently stopped by a boarder patrol agent that bragged to me (in a rather taunting tone) about deliberately running over snakes in the road. He said this as he was walking back to his truck. I should have challenged him, but I didn't figure that exiting my vehicle and approaching his was a good idea.

I found it ironic that he pulled me over based on suspicion of illegal activity and then bragged about his own illegal activity. I'm guessing he had no clue that running over snakes was illegal.

Maybe we should put out a "Public Service Announcement" in a few rural Texas communities with heavy rattlesnake populations. Something along the lines of, "Think twice before killing snakes. TPWD regulations now protect these animals along public roads and ROWs. The next time you run one over, you might just face a fine or the loss of your hunting license." I'm guessing TPWD would be swamped with angry calls and letters. Fun times!

Daryl, as usual you've come up with a gem! Let's see them react to the kind of pressure from ranchers, locals etc that a few of these announcements would generate! And a blurb "Sponsored by Herpetological Conservation Unlimited" would probably generate that little extra bit of outrage that west Texans tend to harbor against environmental organizations of all stripes....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I can see some serious downside. Long term, we really want to build a positive relationship with TPWD and other LE. This could work against that purpose. Probably best to only use it (and some other, more biting PSAs) as a last resort.

Perhaps we'd be better served by just using the idea of potential PSAs as leverage and as a means of demonstrating the hypocrisy in this law. Ideally, we'd never have to actually make TPWD look bad in public.

PERFECT--If someone who lives in the area will be willing to distribute and ask store owners to diplay posters in windows I will donate the fist 50 bucks to get them printed. Now one of you artists get busy and design an eye catcher. I think this has the best possibility of getting some attention of any idea so far. Who do I send my money to.

Pete
theOLDherper

Keep in mind that a possitive relationship with law enforcement is a two way street. If law enforcement is abusing their powers or overstepping their bounds then they generally only react to a hammer. Ive taken on Game Wardens numerous times in hunting and fishing situations where they figured my friends and I were unfamiliar with the laws and were prepared to take advantage of our ignorance. If you hit back respectfully but firmly and reiterate your rights and position they will usually back off. I read above about the "Good Cop" ploy and beware of that. The minute i come into contact with a chatty,congenial officer who just pulled me over I get real quiet. Ever watch Columbo? lol
Has anybody ever thought about taking video of these guys pulling people over in west texas? Im sure you could get one of the regional news shows involved if you had some good teaser footage. There is always a young upstart looking for a story and I believe this is a good one?
Marvin Zindler we need you man !!!!

added to the hunting regs book.....its a crime to kill snakes on the ROW.....with or without a vehicle...or give vertebrates the right of way....require vehicles to stop to allow vertebrates to cross the wildlife sanctuary....crazy????....maybe....but in reality so is this ROW law.....it should be stop an outta state license....in certain areas of west texas....

I think they are already aware of this...I saw a study a long time ago involving a fake snake, a fake turtle, a country road, and automobiles...people swerved to hit the snake, swerved to MISS the turtle.

What about gettin local merchants involved in a lawsuit...they're the ones losing money. Do you have any documentation on personal lost revenue, ie your cabins?

Smorefun asked: "Do you have any documentation on personal lost revenue, ie your cabins?"

I was just getting involved in the rentals when the ban was first introduced. I only have a few months of history prior to the ban. I've talked to some other local merchants, but the tourists crowd down here is so diverse (hikers, birders, rafters, bikers, rock hounds, hunters, herpers, the RV crowd, and chili heads) that it is hard for merchants to know what revenue is herper related. The fact that many herpers tend not to mention that they are herpers further limits the awareness of merchants about the business we provide. The critical thing about the herping crowd in south Brewster county is that they flock to the area during our slowest tourism months.

I strongly agree with the earlier comments from someone else about letting the merchants know why we are here as we hand them our money. Most of them don't know how much they earn from us.

My guess is that the community that is most benefited by herping (and most harmed by the road ban) is Sanderson. That community appeared to be slowly dieing because it was too far removed from many of the regional tourism draws (such as the river and the parks). Then Roy moved in and did an absolutely remarkable job of establishing Sanderson as a herping Mecca. Hopefully TPWD wont succeed in undoing all that Roy has accomplished for that community.

sanderson.....its been three years and -150 pounds since i've been there but its almost a ghost town.....no real food joints.....visitor center open half days....etc....women????...

Hey, I never said he made into restaurant paradise. LOL. But, there is no denying that he has at least slowed the decline of that small town.

of them eggs rancheros.....the only place was that stripes place......just bad samicthes......hey daryl....how 'bout next we meet up and you can take us walking???

What? I thought you were 61. Is your walker rated for off trail use? j/k

Just let me know when you want to come down and we'll set it up.

got me onea them off-road rascals.....with cop tires ...and cop engine....and cop lights....

we witnessed a white pickup truck east of sanderson go onto the shoulder and back on the road....when we got there a dying blacktail.....i gotcher wildlife sanctuary..... indeed.....where was saul then????.....

That is why it is unlikely that TPWD will ever conduct any fake snake on the road stings (except perhaps in areas like Black Gap where non-herping or LE traffic is virtually non-existent after dark). If they planted fake snakes on the road, they'd all be crushed by good old boys. If they ticketed the snake killers, the JPs and judges would likely side with the killers. If they didn't ticket the killers, their hypocrisy would be exposed.

I've always wondered why this idea hasn't been pushed more. I feel we have a great case for a discrimination/prejudice lawsuit. I'm an HCU lifetime member, have made separate donations, and would be willing to donate more for a lawyer to take on the case. I do not agree with most of the compromises. This law is unjust and was passed in a corrupt way without any basis in protecting the public or wildlife. We must fight it!

-----
Snakes to the Max

Brad, I agree! I have a meeting setup on next Monday with my attorney for a business matter, but there is another attorney in the practice that can shed some light on how to proceed. I will consult with him on my own dime to see what he has to say. I will be willing to contribute funds.

If you can set up a fund through HCU, I and I'm sure others would contribute.

I have always thought that you can't sue the state of Texas in a Texas court. I may be wrong, but that's what I remember being told years ago. Does someone actually know the truth about this?

You could sue the state of TX in federal court, but to do so you would have to demonstrate that they are in violation of some federal statute. I don't see that as the case here.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

It depends. lol. I've provided an interesting link.

Suits against the state