Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A few questions on "egg binding" and "bad eggs". From what I have seen and friends have noticed,wild caught gravid snakes have a far lower incidence of egg binding and dropping bad eggs then snakes in captivity.I think I have found about 8 - 10 gravid snakes over the years and never had bad eggs or bound eggs from any of them.Maybe there was one or two bad eggs that I dont remember but not nearly what get from my snakes in capitivity. I think I may get about 1-2 eggs go bad per 4-6 egg clutches with captive snakes.Of the 35 or so eggs I had this years about 5 or 6 went bad.None of those were from the WC gravid females.
So the question is have you guys noticed this same thing with WC gravid snakes?
Also what percentage of your eggs go bad?This may include infertile eggs that were all bad.
And the last question is why.Why do snakes in the wild have better eggs then those we keep in captivity?

After a few days bad eggs begin to look like Gabby Hayes while the good ones still look like Roy Rogers
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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

You are right, wc gravid females usually have fewer bad eggs. Humans try to reproduce conditions to breed but often neglect subtle temp differences that are needed. I had my highest % of bad eggs ever this year, close to 50%! I had some unforseen conditions that caused me to bring up the males and females at the same time. Everyone ate well and produced eggs on time but there were bad eggs from the beginning, through the middle, to the end of incubation and further. I think it even affected their 2nd clutches, FR suggested that the sperm werent "mature" and thought that the 2nd clutches would be different...they were only marginally better. Combined with bad luck(N.FL mole laying in the water bowl!)a season can go down hill fast. Learning this stuff is still a process. Things wc snakes take for granted arent always available in captivity.

Why do some eggs go bad in the first few days while others dont go bad till the 3rd or 4th week?

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

Without specific temps, in specific parts of the maternal snakes body changes can affect the embryo. A small defect caused by this wont stop a egg from developing but could cause different systems from coming together correctly in the egg, inside the snake so you couldnt tell what killed it. Imperfect bowels for example, can cause the egg to die weeks into development. The balance is so delicate that cb animals may not either know how to apply the heat as well or not have access. Right? Let alone keeper error,lol. I get what you are saying.

>>Why do some eggs go bad in the first few days while others dont go bad till the 3rd or 4th week?

This is further evidence that a lot of the incubation issues we witness are congenital, inherited, and probably compounded through inbreeding. If it were, say, a "sperm issue" or a "temperature issue," we would expect the eggs to fail as a group since all are laid at roughly the same time. That some eggs die at different times than others though seems to suggest that something is going on with the expression of lethal genes that are kicking on sometime after normal development begins.

Since inbred offspring tend to be homozygous for the same recessive lethal genes, further support for this idea would come from the observation that "bad eggs" seem to begin development and then die off together later in incubation -- e.g. a clutch starts out looking fine, but two weeks into incubation, three eggs start to look like Gabby Hayes' upper lip. I've personally observed this and wouldn't be surprised to learn that others here have too.

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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

..really...before I read any of this ....

exercise.....in the wild they can stay fit and trim and have better eggs.....more sperm retention and better fertilization from the sperm,ovum all moving around in the oviducts better...more complete fertilization of all the ovum not just the last half or all but the front 3....too much fatty tissue and the sperm will not be able to swim upstream to the last few eggs...happens all the time in a little plastic box....

bigger cages, less foods.....better snakes....

and ball python people whine all the tome if their snake doesn't eat rtas and grow 3 foot a year....mice are just fine...

....so.....also....the choices listed...I think it said choices of where to lay ,heat,eat, lay ,etc etc...yep that helps alot too....

...
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too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

>>Why do snakes in the wild have better eggs then those we keep in captivity?

Although dozens of other factors also play into the success or failure of an egg, the elephant in the living room -- the factor we have some of the most control over but, as a hobby, probably do the least to address -- is the extent to which we outbreed our lineages.

When many think of inbreeding, I get the sense that they imagine gross abnormalities, kinks, and obvious neurological aberrations. And the de facto conclusion for many, no doubt, is that if a problem is not visible, it's not there. In fact, inbreeding depression can manifest itself in much subtler ways (e.g. strike speed, immune system robustness, mate preference, etc). Since these effects often are so indistinct - arguably even unimportant in our captive animals - it's easy to justify inbreeding with reckless abandon for the sake of commercial convenience or the possibility of discovering a new morph. I think it would be naive though to assume that these congenital issues aren't manifesting themselves as early as embryonic development, and probably play a significant role in the observation you've made.
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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

There are plenty of people who breed for locality and dont inbreed that have the same problems.

Also, it's pretty well documented that the "Reptiles" clade (Sauropsida) experiences much less "inbreeding depression" than the Synapsid sister clade (which includes mammals).

This is a topic of frequent discussion on the Alterna Forum. It seems that the general consensus over there is a lack of exercise and dietary deficiencies and/or excesses of nutrients.

FR's "immature sperm" hypothesis holds little water (as is typical...). Since it's the genetic material within the sperm that matters, the "maturity" of the rest of the sperm is fairly immaterial if it can reach the ova and has the correct receptor proteins. All of the mitochondria, ribosomes, etc. found in the developing embryo's cells are from the mother... hence the use of mtDNA to trace maternal lineage in individuals or species.

-Cole

>>There are plenty of people who breed for locality and dont inbreed that have the same problems.

Well, naturally.. I didn't say it was the only factor!

It's worth noting though that when you pluck two snakes from the same woodpile or even the same few acres -- two animals from the same "locality" -- you run the risk of not selecting the two most genetically distinct animals anyway. Pairing them together might effectually be inbreeding.

But let's face it, we "locality nutz" are not always so lucky to find two compatible specimens so close together. In that case, we sometimes have no choice but to breed the little stock we've collected and produced. Also, by definition, inbreeding.

It's the Godzilla of West Virginia. You can run but you can't hide!

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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

I think WC animals can regulate their temps and select deposition sites with much more subtle temp differences than we can provide in captivitiy. This contributes to better sperm/eggs, and better hatch rates. I also think dystocia is prevalent in cb animals due to lack of exercise and muscle tone. Overweight snakes kept in cramped conditions remind me of the big bloated Alien queen. Reduced to nothing more than an egg production machine with no other capabilities being rewarded in captivitiy or encouraged (ie, hunting skills, manuverablity skills, etc.). I think these females lack the muscle and strenght at times to push their entire clutches out. Some tire midway and give up. Some cant push any out at all.

I have noticed similar things. Dig through the archives on the alterna forum when you have time. Those guys have had some interesting discussions about the subject. It seems that there must be some combination of inactive captive snakes with either dietary deficiencies in certian nutrients or excess of certain dietary nutrients (or both?). That's one of the major things we still need to figure out, huh?

-Cole

I have several snake pairs from the same locaton that are unrelated(that I know of)and these snakes seem to have, after being in captivity for a few years a higher incidence of bad eggs then newly found gravid snakes so I'm leaning toward the poor muscle idea.

Just some thoughts
If you have a supply of live mice of appropiate size try feeding those to your females and use your FT mice for the males.This contriction activity may be enough to work the muscle groups that help push the eggs out and the sperm in.In fact,maybe a good contriction or two soon after hooking up with the male might do some good.

Also ,and I got this tip from Jeff Hardwick,try dropping your females in a pail of water or a screened fish tank with shallow water in it now and again to let them swim a bit.This also may help work the same muscles.

This years milks eggs

This years corn eggs.You can see the one that stopped shaving

These are last years corn eggs

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

Mr. Yohe nailed it first:
"exercise.....in the wild they can stay fit and trim and have better eggs."
-in his own unique style, it's perfect.

True enough, triangulum eggs tend to be huge in relation to the girth of the typical 3 year old female and that girl may bind and die. Have some doubts? Wait another year.

Exhaustion: trust me here, that pampered squishy female is not a prime example of fitness and she'll likely retain that last egg or two. (there's exceptions, I see an otherwise fit female bind now and then, but in general, the marshmallow girl will have problems)

Inbreeding: unfortunately, I have wc milks that deliver an occassional kinked hatchling (one or two in 30) and absolutely unrelated milks that will have the same approximate ratio but not every year; this one vexes me and the kinks may be related to the complexity of the developing spine and assuming temps are correctly regulated (80 or less for milks)might just be bad luck and not genetics or our fault.
Then: seriously inbred "lines" like the hypo syspila produce remarkably excellent hatchlings every year when incubated properly and their kids produce excellent hatchlings. Cole touched on the developing spine and I've been leaning away from the legendary inbreeding depression we've all been fed.

Top reasons for defective eggs (assuming the male is in optimum condition post cooling):
infertile, too wet medium (grrr) and tough shells at the end of the incubation duration from being too dry. Males can shoot blanks and this may take several years to sort out.

Top reasons for defective hatchlings:
temperature, temperature, temperature and just developmental bad luck now and then.

Retained eggs:
exhausted females, too small/young females, unusually huge eggs, lack of muscle tone in the female (ties in with exhaustion) and probably an occassional oviduct problem but this is not my area of expertise.

More fun observations:
Gentilis, pales and taylori breed very well right out of the cooler after a couple meals. Never hurts to give the male 2 weeks for conditioning but keep the female cold meanwhile.

Females will ovulate and fertilize their eggs with last years sperm before you've had a chance to pair her off. Keep her cold until the male is conditioned.

Virgin females will drop eggs.

Syspila are different and need 3-5 weeks before they'll breed (usually, yes I know there's someone reading this that knows of an exception - so do I)

Someone posted long ago that while cleaning a cage, he dropped the snake into a garbage can of water which forced the snake to swim and thereby get some exercise and a bath. Pretty clever idea and who'd a thunk proper diet and exercise would work with reptiles too?

That's it for today, observations collected over the last 10 years with snotty milks.....
-Jeff

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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

virgin females suck when they lay eggs ,,and yes they will....all species of snakes...

you mentioned eggs too tough...from being too dry near the end........in Asian rats I think it's the opposite....too wet and they can't hatch...they need to be dry so they tear better.......hmmmm.....species differ alot.......cool thought....

....temps......I had St Mary eggs hatch, 5 of 5 good eggs...one was slightly kinked I think at tail...I have to look at them actually....with glasses....and their eggs went from 79 to 89 ....sucks...heaters won't hold....up and down almost everyday.....which is alot better than constant 86....yes.....I try for 82....yes....

....marshmallow females....I think almost all campbelli in cages are totally that , mooshy rolly polly fat slob marshmallows....how can we stop it?....we need better pueblans....I know I do....5 years and 0 eggs (good ones).....
I had campbell's before and actually broke ones back while putting him back into his cage...he was so big and so fat....had to happen that way....cage not tall enough to have fallen....

....so....bigger boxes....we all need bigger boxes....

...note...I know a guy that kept female corns 2 and 3 to a cage....why?...to make them interact and therefore get more exercise......it lookd like it worked....they were fit as can be and long........

......good luck all.......
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too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

Lack of exercise could be a major issue with egg binding...however I think temps are more the cause of having bad eggs and sperm.

Temps are extremely important...and I attribute my poor eggs this year to either an unfertile male (because I paired him with 4 different females)...or a male that was just too warm. The jury is out until next year...so I will know more then.

Also, when we introduce two captive snakes...the female may not be ready to breed...and the male won't wait (if he’s a good male)...he'll wear her down and copulate because they are kept together and she can't escape. I think that could also attribute to unfertile eggs.

Lastly, I think the genetics may not line up...especially when you are breeding stuff like I am...the multiple recessive traits should be less robust by definition when comparing it to a wild caught animal. For this very reason, I'd like to get a wild caught, het for nothing Honduran pair. Then I can produce triple hets and refresh the gene pool in just a few clutches.

-Rusty

Interesting stuff Rusty. A question.Could temps be responsible for bad eggs if 2 eggs go bad out of a clutch of 6 good one?
Also how old is that male of yours that you used on four females and what temp did you keep him?How many of the fems layed eggs?
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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

Captive snakes are just less fit in my opinion. The reasons seem quite obvious and if you have to discuss them the point is likely moot but I think the major factor is the lack of natural selection. For instance how many of you have slit eggs to help neonates escape? In the wild a neonate to weak to make it out of the egg just doesn't get the chance to pass on its weakness. In captivity such a weak animals by virtue of their pattern or color can and do become the backbone of captive colonies.

If you want to improve the success rate of reproductive effort you need other metrics in selecting breeders than the eye candy test too. Improving the captive environment alone isn't going to do it.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

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