Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have not read this, just been pondering it for some time.

My thought...

It would not surprise me that certain reptiles (dragons) who actually lay out (bask) in the wild in the intense solar heat are doing so for a greater purpose than food digestion in certain circumstances.

Temps reaching 140 degrees surface temp as someone observed in Australia.

These surface temps raise their body temps to 130 or above.

I would say this creates an internal cooker that allows the animal to combat internal parasites.

A theory but possibly the parasites cannot withstand frequent high temp inhospitable conditions. Or maybe the parasite eggs cook off. Something has to happen in this dynamic situation though.

If the animal is feeling ill, the animal may go into a cook phase where it allows its body temp to rise near their critical maximum. Just like what we do when we get a fever. Our bodies are cooking off internal bugs and viruses.

I think the heat is there for them to utilize as a tool.

Just a thought but it makes sense.

That is why in an optimal gradient temp/uv setup they need the ability to find a full gradient of temps and uv. 105 surface basking is not nearly hot enough.

However, if your going hotter you need to provide a large enough enclosure with a zero index for them to self regulate.

typo:

connection

typing fast

What about the friendly microbes that coexist with the dragons in a mutual symbiotic relationship? Does the high heat kill them?

Naturally occurring gut flora and digestive stomach bacteria?

Good question.

Humans get high fevers in effort to kill off viruses and such. Human gut flora lives unless you get put on an antibiotic that normally kills it off.

Isn't a fever an undesirable condition? I think there is an optimal, core, body temperature for every species. I'm sure every living thing feel stress out when it is too hot for their optimal, core, body temperatures.

The human body raises it's temperature because generally viruses and organisms thrive in a very narrow temperature range. Reptiles also do this. They will seek out different temperatures when feeeling unhealthy. Sometime higher sometimes lower.

But, 10 degrees above normal for any animal is generally fatal. Some where recently I read an article that tested this with Bearded Dragons. One died at 111 ish as I remember and the other died at a little higher temp. but below 115. Was it posted here?

The only dragons with a body temp. anywhere near 130 degrees are dead dragons.

No one disputes high basking temps. exist in nature. Dragons just do not bask in them.

Do you have an infrared temp gun?

Duh. What you think that I can't afford a $30 necessary tool? when I put $120 thermostats on each of my enclosures?

I also have outside cages and have observed the dragons habits for years under many different conditions. This is something you have not. You just keep harping that high surface temps. exist in nature and I have never disputed that.

No offense, but I don't believe you own or have used one before.

An infrared temp gun is totally useless to measure 'Internal' body temperatures. It only measures surface temperatures. I can sit in the sun for a little while and take a surface temp of my arm and get a much hotter temperature than I would have if I took my 'internal' temperature with a typical under the tongue thermometer.

So whether BDLvr owns or is a master of a temp gun is rather irrelevant for the discussion of how much internal heat a dragon can tolerate before dying. Dragons in the wild regulate their internal body temperature by moving in and out of sunlight/hot spots, changing lightness/darkness of pigments (hence why they tend to really brighten up in direct sunlight compared to 'wake up' colors just when the lights come on). Too high of an internal body temperature will kill just about every creature on the planet..and some are more sensitive to heat stroke than others.

Thus bearded dragons can be active even when ambient temps are well over their idea range...but they wouldn't stay in that temperature for long, if they have any choice. They will make attempts to cool themselves (panting, moving out of direct sun, etc.)
-----
PHLdyPayne

My reason for asking BDmaster about the temp gun has really nothing to do with internal body temperatures, more fitting with "dragons don't bask in them" with regards to 130 degree surface temps in his thread directly above my own. He and I have agreed on many things in the past, but always knock heads when it comes to temps and substrates. And I've never seen his pictures with temp gun readings, begging the question.

We might never see things eye to eye on husbandry, but thats no problem.

Why would I possibly take pictures with my temp gun in it. That's just weird.

But anyway. My cages are built with constant readouts for basking, ambient hot, ambient cool and humidity. The temp. probe is embedded in the center of each basking spot, so assuming there is not an animal laying on it, it shows the basking spot temp 24/7.

If you look closely, the readouts are on the outside of each enclosure, above the basking spot, (left side) mounted on the divider between the door track and the vent opening.

Very nice set up! Are those custom built enclosures?

"So whether BDLvr owns or is a master of a temp gun is rather irrelevant for the discussion of how much internal heat a dragon can tolerate before dying. Dragons in the wild regulate their internal body temperature by moving in and out of sunlight/hot spots, changing lightness/darkness of pigments (hence why they tend to really brighten up in direct sunlight compared to 'wake up' colors just when the lights come on). Too high of an internal body temperature will kill just about every creature on the planet..and some are more sensitive to heat stroke than others."

I wanted to point out an observation I have with BD's. They color more according to their mood, stress, and stimulation levels. Sometimes when handling my scaled buddies outside of their cages all of the sudden their colors POP, when they are not near a heat source.

I read in the reptiles magazine that hot spot for adults should be 115F to 130F

Yea I read that too. The people they choose to write the articles are far from experts in the species they write about. If you want informed information look at care sheets in books and websites by known long time keepers. Bob Mailloux would be a good example.

parasites are not the enemy in the wild. there is a perfect balance. the issues we are plagued with in captivity are not something beardeds in the wild ever have to deal with. they are husbandry related. it does get very hot in some parts of P.vitticeps range but only for a small part of the year when they shut down on most of their activity(kind of like in the winter but without dormancy). although they may bask for short periods they don't breed and food is scarce. they experience seasonal changes just like most of the world. there is a small window of breeding opportunity in the ''spring'' and thats it.this is why there are such low records of productivity and clutch sizes in the wild are so small. in captivity we give them an unnatural extended spring and thats why we get over 100 eggs and 5 clutches in a season. the problem with the heat/parasite theory is that the specific parasites have also evolved to those temps just like their host. again there is a healthy and natural relationship between a parasite and host in nature(unless there is another factor at play).

Yes indeed... a symbiotic relationship.

a symbiotic relationship? Oh I get it the ticks and mites commonly found in nature are taking care of that excess blood problem in their hosts. lol.

i am not sure the term symbiotic is appropriate but we dont really know that its not a benefit for an animal to have parasites.there is a balance thats for sure. i assume DW was refering to internal and not external parasites. it is not normal or natural for an animal to be without internal parasites.this is a fact that can't be argued. also mites and ticks dont typically plague wild dragons and in normal situations there is no harm done and animals dont suffer negatively from ticks or mites.they certainly dont kill them.

actually i am kind of jumping the gun. technically the relationship between parasites and hosts is symbiotic.the problem is that over the years the term has become sort of relative and peoples common misconception is that it has to be mutually beneficial. there are many types and categories. even parasitic symbiosis is technically a symbiotic relationship. both parties dont have to benefit in the relationship. so dw is correct.

You need to look up the word in the dictionary.

A symbiotic relationship is a relationship between two entities which is mutually beneficial for the participants of the relationship. Thus there is a positive-sum gain from cooperation. This is a term commonly used in biology to explain the relationship between two entities that need each other to survive and prosper. The bumblebee and the flower would be an example. The bumble bee extracts the flower's pollen for protein and its nectar for energy. The bumblebee, while collecting these sources, inadvertently brushes pollen from one flower to another to ensure the flower's reproduction process begins. The bumblebee needs the flower to survive, the flower needs the bumblebee to survive. These are positive sum relationships.

wow i guess i look stupid now huh? i stand corrected. all sarcasm aside. your ignorance is astonishing. you are refering to only one type of symbiotic relationship. there are many. the type of symbiotic relationship you are refering to is calledMUTUALISM.maybe you should learn about the things you are trying to be condascending about. if you want to be nice and respectful i can teach you some valuable stuff. otherwise you can continue to try to sound intelligent and display your ignorance like when you question rainforests in canada or dont know the definition of the term symbiotic relationship. i am not making this stuff up just do some research or take a college level zoology class.

actually if i remember correctly from my college zoology class(almost 20 years ago) the example you use might refered to as an obligate symbiotic relationship because one or more parties has to have the symbiotic relationship to survive. but it might be mutualism because both parties mutually benefit.i cant remember and dont have time to stop and look it up.maybe you could do it for me and learn something in the process. then you can humbly post your findings.that is if you can even understand what i am writing since my spelling is so horrible.

I am Canadian and I wasn't sure myself if Canada had any rainforests...so I looked it up. You can't expect everybody to know everything so lay off the put downs.These forums are not here so people can try and make themselves look good by nitpicking others to death.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Thanks for the compliment

Bdlvr... lets see some update recent pics. All we ever see is the same 2 or 3 pics from you, all of which look dated to me.

recent pics to affirm the BS

Typical vanishing act

Let me clue you in a little about experience. You make cages and you remake/revise cages over the years but sooner or later the cages just work and you are happy with them. Then you just use them.

The moral of the story is that all my cages are the same as the pictures I took a few years ago.

Maybe if I get around to it I'll post the Iguana cage I am in the process of completing. It is 8' x 9' with a built in tub with flush valve, hot and cold water bath and shower, natural unfiltered sun light basking area, artificial MV light basking area, independant heating system, etc.

Will this satisfy you?

I'm certaintly not looking for your satisfaction BDmaster. I only asked you a question and received an answer that swayed from the question. Maybe because your answer was not truthful? I could care less...

Also, self-admitted, I am an incredible idiot most of the time. Though this idiot wouldn't spend $3,000 to regulate temperatures in his cages...a room that maintains a nearly consistent temperature could do this too, like a basement.

See this is your inexperience talking.

All my cages are in my home which is temperature controlled obviously. But, as the seasons change the ambient in a home changes. In winter you might heat a house to 65 or 70 constant and then select a bulb wattage and type that gives you a 105 basking spot and a high side ambient of 90.

But, then spring/summer comes along and the ambient temp in your house changes so the output and/or type of bulb needs to be changed. Or you could use a thermostat like I do so that when I leave for work and it is cool the bulbs are on full output but as the day heats up the wattage to the bulbs are reduced to keep the animals temps. in the proper ranges.

Another problem is the amount of enclosures I have heats my house significantly. I certainly can't efficiently air condition against this to keep the ambient temp. in my home constant all year.

I never have to worry about my dragons overheating.

As far as the $3000 for thermostats goes you have to have it to spend it. I have certainly spent well over $15,000 to build all my enclosures not including the Iguana enclosure I am currently working on. I am 47 years old and have a very good job. I didn't buy everything all at once. It has taken years to get to where I am. I do rescue and rehab as my passion. I would never scrimp on cost to the animals detriment. Thermostats are better and safer so I have them.

My new Iguana cage has cost me at least $1500 to construct, materials alone, I do all my own labor including plumbing, electrical, tiling, etc.

I'm well aware of seasonal changes affecting the ambient temperature of a house BDmaster. This was taken into account before I typed anything. Your cages appear to be in your living room, floor-level and certaintly subject to changes in seasonal temperature. Hence your need for $3,000 worth of thermostats.

My basement stays a cool 68-73 year round. I think it's a great temp range to work with too, lower the starting temp the better. As you and I both know, a good number of reptile cages even with minimal venting will add plenty of ambient heat to the room they are housed in. Knowing the max tempeature the room will achieve allows you to choose the amount of heat you can safely provide, without worry for overheating.

No more back and forth between you and I. I'll give it rest, can you?

I would never keep mine in my basement. Out of sight, out of mind kind of thing. Plus with as many enclosures and animals that I have the trips over the stairs each day would be ridiculous.

I have 28 active enclosures, 11 in my living room (9 are the ones in my commonly posted picture), 9 in my family room (6 are below), 4 in my dining room, 3 in my foyer, and 1 in my kitchen.

Whether you want to or not you will be observing reptiles full time when you are in my house.

It should be completed by the end of next month I hope.

Hey look, an igauna in the window! Cool stuff, np

typo: iguana

FYI... heat lamps in the window can freak out the neighbors... but make a great addition at halloween!
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

0-1-0 Rescued Ball Python - Athena (formerly Apep)
0-0-1 Rescued Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
2-3-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Vader, Bastet, Isis, Angel
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

WOW.........I love what you are doing with the new enclosure............I think that is amazing!!!! I loved your comment about seeing nothing but reptiles when you visit your house.....I wouldn't mind as long as it is lizards, sorry, just don't like snakes, guess I am not a true herp

Thanks.

I don't own any snakes either. I'm always afraid that some day one would eat one of my other animals. With a lot of animals sooner of later you forget to close a cage or one escapes. One of the vets in my rescue group specializes in snakes. She has over 200 at this point. She generally cares for the snakes in need.

SURFACE temps of 130 are achievable, but not a core body temp, to further clarify.

You can't achieve much more than a 105F internal core temp before tissue/organ damage begins and death is right around the corner.

However, that is why it is SO IMPORTANT to clarify and understand the difference between basking/surface/air/core body temps. Those are all different temperatures, and have different values.

We did outdoor pics the other day when the temp was in the high 80's and achieved surface temps up to 155F. Lizards can bask in temps over 160F without their internal core body temps exceeding a normal healthy range.

Those pics are coming soon...
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles