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I purchased a Pied from a breeder that starts his hatchlings on mice, I specificaly asked to have it feeding on rat pups as I don't breed mice and don't intend to...

This particular Pied has been refusing rats for 6 weeks now and the breeder is not willing to take it back or compensate as per our original agreement, he told me if I was not happy to f... off!!!

I am now stuck with a Pied female imprinted on god danm mice!!!

Are there good breeders out there that start their BP's on rat pups from the get go?

I raise mine on mouse hoppers to get them interested to eat then switch over to fuzzy rats or crawlers.I agree i bought a male pastel het pied from a breeder who fed mice to this snake but said he will eat both,never happened still eats mice and hes 1000grams has been ever since I just deal with it.And I raise my own rodents, thank god.Do you have a local pet store to try to wait him out the snake that is.
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1.0 100%het albino
0.1 100%het albino
1.0 pastel
0.1 spider
0.1 pastel
1.0 butter
0.1 albino hc
1.0 orange ghost
0.1 100%het pied poss het albino ringer
1.0 med pied
0.1 pewter
1.0 pinstripe
1.0 pastel

was the sale contingent on it being a rat feeder. Did you tell the breeder you wouldnt purchase if it wasnt eating rats? If so that really sucks. I wish you luck. But i'd take a mouse feeding pied anyday.. just cause I want one so bad..LOL
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This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown

1.0 Basset Hound (Capone)
1.1 cats (San Quinton and Gracie)

Also if you have a pet store close ask for some mice bedding to rub on crawler to trigger it.Hope it works out.But yes my friend has 125 ball pythons that feeds only rats,problem feeders get mice to start then switched.
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1.0 100%het albino
0.1 100%het albino
1.0 pastel
0.1 spider
0.1 pastel
1.0 butter
0.1 albino hc
1.0 orange ghost
0.1 100%het pied poss het albino ringer
1.0 med pied
0.1 pewter
1.0 pinstripe
1.0 pastel

No one is going to look after us but ourselves. There is no Better Business Bureau for the snake business, thank goodness.

Did he tell you it was a rat feeder? Pay Pal is on your side of these issues, but 6-8 weeks is a long time.

If you don't get what you bargained for, the only thing to do is publicly call them out on it. However, this is not the place to name names.

I try to start every snake on rats. I was very stubborn about it for several years, but the last few years I have used mice for the ones that don't take rats. They usually switch over easily after a few meals. I don't feed mice very long without trying to switch.

I know...you don't breed mice....

.....I always start my balls off with a medium rat so they don't get imprinted on mice and grow better with rats....

....
.
.ok......did they agree with starting it on rats?....

......details settled before shipping.....

be glad....mine all started on mcie and ate mice for a year or so...then always switch to gerbils or ASFR....the het pieds eat anything....they are huge....
.
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too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

DAmn I understand you !

I purchased most of my snakes last year. I don't have problem with most of them.
A lot (I think all the 09) were fed live. But I was able to switch them to frozen rats without a problem. But one of them didn't.

That albino female is still around or under 200g. She just doesn't want to eat. She want live mice, and I won't give it. I gave her some frozen one, she took some but not enough. So I keep feeding frozen thawned rats, one day she will change I suppose.
I also bought a male, he eats but he skip a lot of meal.

I got babies this year, they have all taken frozen thawned RATS from the beginning. I hope to do the same with my other clutches. I might resign to live and switch them, but no MICE ever.

Oh and until that breeder keep feeding live mice to start them up, I will never buy/trade with him.
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love this world, don't hate it.

.

to some snakes...yes they like the flavor...

to alot they just got used to eating them...

reason?

newborn balls like to eat stuff that moves...rat pinks don't really move...bigger rats are too big....so mice are used...large fuzzies here....hoppers might scare or even chew up a ball.....so large fuzzy are first meals.....

once they eat....you can switch most to rats....but some lines don't like rats no matter what you try....

some lines don't even eat mice.....and gerbil eaters are a pain....LOL

....it's all about movement....
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too many puppies....are trained not to bark,,,at the sight of blood that must be spilled......to protect our oil fields.....too many puppies....too many p-p-p-p-puppies....

........JY.......

Wow...looks like not return business for that person.

I'm kinda surprised though...I mean, I start my snakes on mice, and most switch to rats without issue.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

i had a stubborn feeder once, I just had the pet store Scent the mouse with soiled rat bedding for a couple feedings. Then I switched to rats and it took no problem. maybe i was just lucky but you could try it. someone asked do mice taste better? Maybe so, but they def. move alot more and faster, and i think that gets a snakes attention.
i have a pastel that took over a month and a half to convert from live to prekilled. It took quite alot of rat dancing to get him to start taking them.
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This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown

1.0 Basset Hound (Capone)
1.1 cats (San Quinton and Gracie)

That sucks that someone would do that to a customer. I only feed mice to my Ball Pythons (and all my snakes). If I got a rat eater only from someone and was told that it ate mice and didn't, then I too would be pissed.

I suggest the wait it out method. I got a DH for vpi snow male rat eater from Ralph Davis that went 3 months without eating before he ate a mouse. I offered him one every week. (I knew it ate rats. Ralph was totally honest and I took the chance.)

That same snake fathered a clutch of 1 snow, 2 albino, 1 axanthic and 5 normals a year later.

Maybe keep the snake and ask for a rebate?

Good luck!

Kevin

why would you ever switch from rats to mice? what is the benefit to feeding mice over rats?
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

If mice are what you have available...

I don't understand all the people wanting to switch to frozen thawed but to each their own.

I start on mice because they are for me the most economical hatchling sized prey. My keepers then get switched to ASF's and eventually Norway rats as each of those become the most economical for their size.

I know...all my snakes eat live and I never have issues with it.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Hello and great question.

I breed, buy and feed only mice because:

1. Mice are more easily digested. My snakes poop out mouse meals in half the time of rat meals of the same weight. The large size of a rat results in more time and energy being needed to break down one big animal versus several smaller ones. There is less surface area per gram of food on a rat. This means more digestion effort needed. Do you want to eat one big meal a day or 3 smaller meals a day? How do you feel after a huge meal? Tired, sluggish?
2. Growth rate is much faster on mice than rats. For example; I have a March 08 DH VPI snow female from Bradford Cole that was 1800+ grams by December of 2009 and she laid 9 eggs in May of this year. I have 1 snow, 2 albinos, 1 axanthic and 5 normals that are all big, perfect baies from her clutch. I also have a 14 week old pied female that went from 60 grams to 400 grams as of last week. I have other similar growth rate stories. My buddy at Zoo Med is astounded at my growth rates, health, size and clutches.
3. Mice are cheaper to buy, cheaper and easier to raise (less room needed, less smell, less supplies like food and shavings and smaller less expensive breeding set ups), easier to handle, etc.
4. Safer to feed live. (I only feed live, never frozen. Thus no thaw time, no animals laying around and no mess.)
5. I am spending HALF the money to get better results versus rats. That is a big deal in this economy. Better results and less expense? I'll take that.
6. Rats are smart and mice are stupid. I am sorry but I have a much easier time feeding stupid animals to my snakes.

Is six reasons enough? LOL

Thank you for the question.

Kevin

for the sake of your animals and all the rest of us in this hobby, i really hope your post was a joke
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

most specifically points 1,2,3, and 4.

1. if its the same weight, its the same weight period, your fist point is now moot.

2. from everything ive ever seen on rat vs mouse nutritional value, rats are more nutritious to feed to your snake.

3. mice are cheaper to buy, but i promise they smell far worse, and im sure it costs roughly the same to keep them as it does rats. i spend MAYBE ...... MAYBE $20 a month on maintaining a rat colony of ~250.

4. wow just wow, safer to feed live, really? are you joking? i bet you leave them unattended over night too?

5. this is still kinda iffy -- you kinda double posted number 3

6. this is the only one ill give you credit for, rats are smarter than mice from what ive seen, but mice can still inflict quite a bit of damage on a snake either way.
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

I don't think he was saying safter to feed live than frozen, just that live mice were safter to feed than live rats...However, due to my own personal experience, I disagree. I've seen adult mice DESTROY a snake, much quicker than a small rat of the same size.

But, I don't have to feed his snakes, and he doesn't have to feed mine...so to each his own.

ah i kinda see what youre saying, but regardless feeding live anything is no where near as safe as frozen. and the way it was worded thats how it came across. definitely dont need new hobbyists seeing something like that and thinking its safer to feed live over frozen, was my main point
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

I do not wait more than a few minutes. My snakes eat right away. The few problem feeders I have had will have the mouse in the cage for longer but I always put a nugget of food block in the cage when I do this. I have never (knock wood) had a mouse injur a snake.

Thanx

Kevin

First of all, No I am not kidding and your reply post is very insulting! Who do you think you are posting with this tone?

And, what negative impact would feeding mice over rats have on our industry???

1. if its the same weight, its the same weight period, your fist point is now moot.
I SAID FASTER DIGESTION FOR THE SAME WEIGHT OF FOOD! Try reading more carefully!

2. from everything ive ever seen on rat vs mouse nutritional value, rats are more nutritious to feed to your snake.
WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN? MAYBE CITE SOME OF THE SOURCES, OR DID YOU MAKE IT UP? I HAVE PRODUCED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF RATS AND MICE OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS AND AM VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ON THE SUBJECT BY VIRTUE OF ACTUALLY READING JOURNALS ETC AND TALKING TO EXPERTS FROM ZOOS AND OTHER PROPAGATION FACILITIES! AND YOU HAVE SEEN THINGS? HMMMM?

3. mice are cheaper to buy, but i promise they smell far worse, and im sure it costs roughly the same to keep them as it does rats. i spend MAYBE ...... MAYBE $20 a month on maintaining a rat colony of ~250.
$20 A MONTH? BS! WHAT ARE YOU FEEDING THEM? CHEAP DOG FOOD? DO YOU CLEAN THEM? ONE BALE OF ASPEN IS OVER $20.
YOUR PROMISING SOMETHING THAT I KNOW TO BE FALSE AND SURE OF SOMETHING THAT IS ALSO FALSE! RATS ARE MUCH SMELLIER DUE TO THE MUCH HIGHER AMOUNT OF URINE AND FECES PRODUCED. REMEMBER I HAVE DONE THIS FOR 3 DECADES.

4. wow just wow, safer to feed live, really? are you joking? i bet you leave them unattended over night too?
IT IS SAFER TO FEED LIVE MICE THAN LIVE RATS! Once again, please read more CAREFULLY! I FEED LIVE BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CELLULAR DAMAGE FROM ICE CRYSTALS AND NO DEGRADATION OF NUTRIENTS! You do know that slow freezing causes large ice crystals to pierce the cell walls and degrade the quality and nutrional value of the food animal? And that freezing itself decreases nutritional value? Don't you Mr. Know it all?
AND NO I DO NOT LEAVE THEM UNATTENDED! AND IF I HAD TO BET ON SOMETHING IT WOULD BE THAT YOU DIDN'T MAKE IT OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!

5. this is still kinda iffy -- you kinda double posted number 3
OH MAN, YOU GOT ME HERE BOY HOWDY! I DUPLICATED A REASON.

6. this is the only one ill give you credit for, rats are smarter than mice from what ive seen, but mice can still inflict quite a bit of damage on a snake either way
YOU ARE AT LEAST RIGHT ON THIS ONE. RATS ARE EXPONENTIALLY SMARTER THAN MICE. IT'S LIKE COMPARING CHIMPS TO MONKEYS. AND I HAVE NEVER HAD A MOUSE DAMAGE A SNAKE (KNOCK WOOD) BUT HAVE HAD RATS INJUR THEM.

Please refrain from posting in such an antagonistic fasion in the future BAM.

Thanx

Kevin

Kevin good for you for standing up to someone who sound's like they don't know what they're talking about. The statement about only spending $20 a month to take of 250 rat's is priceless. Andrew

believe it or not that's roughly what i spend. I'm attempting to contact Kevin, so ill refrain from responding further than this until me and him work it out, even though I've got plenty to say in regards to his last post, but id rather talk to him and attempt to clear it up first instead of possibly making it worse.
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

You have a pied that is actually eating and you're unhappy about that???

Amazing, truly amazing.

Well a couple of things. I can see that you are a very angry person so #1 I would not ever deal with a person again that talked to me like that after knowing he was wrong and #2 Why in the world would you not use the F word in your post yet find it ok to take the Lords name in vain.. I dont get it..??
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JEM from sunny AZ.

3.25 Normals
3.15 Pastels
1.0 Super Pastels(Thanks Dan Wolfe for the best looking Super male I have ever seen)
2.8 Normal Spiders
1.2 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost(Thanks Steve Beamer)
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
0.7 100% het Orange Ghosts
0.3 66% het Orange Ghosts(should prove this year)
0.1 Pastel Ghost
1.0 Citrus Ghost(courtesy of Josh Hutto)
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
2.3 Albinos
1.1 Caramel Albinos
0.1 100% het Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.5 66% het for Albino(should prove this year)
0.7 Yellow Bellies
1.0 Pastel Yellow Belly
1.2 Ivories
1.2 100% het for Clowns(Mark Petros)
1.6 Cinnamons(Thanks Stan Ruppel)
1.0 Pied
1.4 100% het for Pied(Josh Hutto and Paul the Pied Peddler)
0.5 66% het for Pied(should prove out next year with my visual male Pied)
1.5 Mojaves
0.1 Pastave het Ghost
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.3 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.1 Pewters(Myself and Scott Priester of Brookside Reptiles)
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.3 Lessers(Josh Hutto)
3.2 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Enchi's (Me and Josh Hutto, Thanks again Josh)
1.0 Pinstripe
1.2 Pinstripe 100% het for Ghost
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)
0.1 Super Vanilla Ghost(Awesome Chris and Shelia from GCR)
0.1 Vanilla Yellow Belly
0.1 Vanilla Mojave
0.1 Vanilla(Another one from Josh Hutto,I must have all your snakes now...lol.) Thanks my friend, Jay
1.1 Stillwater Hypo Bull snakes(Brad Chambers)
0.0.1 Great looking Brown and Tan Desert Bull Snake)
0.0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty
1.1 Argentinian Black and White Tegus
1.0 Gotti Pitbull (Tank)
2.0 Beautiful Bengals (Stryker and Cynbad)
14 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children