Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Somebody in another thread said: "There is very, very little chance of MOST eastern milks EVER encountering a lizard in the wild."

I found this claim quite interesting. I have Eastern milks on my own property, and I have found at least two species of lizards (Sceloporus and Eumeces) within roughly 50 feet of a Lampropeltis sighting. Likewise, we have already seen in another recent thread that the Eastern milk range even overlaps in places with Anolis range -- and there's certainly a lot of overlap between Eastern milk and both Sceloporus and Eumeces ranges (range maps provided on request).

Can somebody comment further on the claim that Eastern milks are unlikely to encounter lizards in the wild? I'm aware that they might have different preferred microhabitats, but I am skeptical that the milk would be unable to move even a few feet outside of that preferred area during the course of hunting. I'd like to learn more about this. Does anyone have more info?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

skinks hide under stuff....milks hide under stuff....milks and lizards can be under same stuff.....IN PA>...

five lined and broad headed....although not common at all....are here...and in MD there are broad head ,five lined and sceloprous in same areas....at least...

lizards prefer up in trees BUT in PA we see them ON the RR Traxx all the time...even hiding right under the steel rail while you walk up and grab them...not often...LOL...

...

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....accidentally move over share button....wait....pop up...go away....wait...hit again....try again....wait....mouse touched that thing again....there are two of them even....yep....why

........JY.......

Well Doc, you decided to quote a portion of a discussion and take it slightly out of context as a stand alone statement. If you'd like a stand alone statement to refute, here you go...

"Over a large portion of the range of the eastern milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum) the is a little to ZERO chance of ever encountering a native lizard in the field." - Joe_M.

Peck away...
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Joe

Are you retracting your claim, Joe? I quoted that claim exactly, including your own emphases on "MOST" and "EVER". It was quite a clear and confident claim, but if you'd like to back out of it now just let us know.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here's a little more of the original quote for you so you can understand the context. "...the previous statement that hatchling milks prefer lizards should not be a blanket statement for all milks. There is very, very little chance of MOST eastern milks EVER encountering a lizard in the wild. (Sure there are some areas where skinks and eastern milks overlap, but much more area, I believe, where easterns are found that no lizards occur.) And as you've stated, you live in an area with NO lizards. "

Not retracting my statement at all. I'll modify it VERY SLIGHTLY if you'd like to use it as a stand alone quote. You can just change the one word "MOST" to "MANY" if that will make you a little happier. There is a just about ZERO% chance of any eastern milksnake in New England encountering any species of lizard. (Outside of a very slim chance of an encounter with Eumeces fasciatus in the western extreme of CT and SW extreme of VT). Understand???

Cluck...Cluck...Cluck.
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Joe

Well geez, Joe, New England is hardly "most" of the Eastern milk's range. If you're going to water down your bold original claim to merely the New England region, then it was hardly a claim worth making in the first place.

In fact, the majority of the Eastern milk range is shared with multiple lizard species. it is only in the far northern portion of its range that it occurs in complete isolation from lizards. Please refer to the range maps below.

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

OK doc, so you're great research of the Peterson's Field Guide has proven there is approximately a 50 percent overlap over the entire range of the eastern milksnake and the five lined skink, much less than 50 for broadhead skink, even less for all of the fence lizards, and maybe a 1 percent overlap with green anoles. Congratulations. Your point again is ???

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Joe

to stir the pot...

>>Your point again is ???

I don't really have a "point", as such. You made a statement which I doubted the accuracy of, so I asked for further comments. And, indeed, your statement did turn out to be inaccurate. That's the only point -- I was interested in learning whether it was accurate or not. In fact, it was not.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>I don't really have a "point", as such.

Your statement summarizes the last few months of you contributions to the milksnake community! Thanks again for the great insight.
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Joe

>>Thanks again for the great insight.

I'm always happy to correct misinformation.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>
>>I'm always happy to correct misinformation.
>>-----

I'm not quite sure you "corrected" anything, but thanks for trying. You have cut and pasted copyrighted images from a field guide that show ranges MAY overlap somewhere in the vicinity of 50% by area. (Please don't quote me on that exact value as I have not computed ACTUAL square miles of potential overlap of milksnakes and every lizard native to the same range within the continental United States.) These "range" maps do not say anything at all about population densities of individuals throughout the range.

If you'd like to pat yourself on the back for having me change my original, somewhat out of context quote that you questioned from "most" to "many" have at it. But I'm not totally convinced by you're proof that "most" was incorrect in the first place.

And thanks for the comic relief you have been providing to the community. Is it ok if I use your quote as my signature?

Amazondoc - "I don't really have a 'point'".
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Joe

Joe --

If the truth is not indeed "most" -- which it appears not to be -- then there was very little point in you making the statement in the first place.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Joe --
>>
>>If the truth is not indeed "most" -- which it appears not to be -- then there was very little point in you making the statement in the first place.

"APPEARS", lmao.

There is a very big point in making the statement in the first place, you are just too ignorant to understand it!

Nighty night, go count your chickens.
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Joe

>>"APPEARS", lmao.

Hey -- if you still think it's true, let's see some evidence.

>>There is a very big point in making the statement in the first place, you are just too ignorant to understand it!

You were reacting to a supposed "previous statement that hatchling milks prefer lizards ".

First, I don't think anyone in this discussion actually said that -- the closest I could find was a statement that baby milks would be likely to eat larvae OR lizards in the wild.

Second, if Eastern milks do indeed overlap with lizards for most of their range -- which it appears that they do, despite your bold claim to the contrary -- then the original statement about larvae/lizards seems to be a reasonable thing to say.

If you believe otherwise, then please present your evidence. I'm always happy to learn new things!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I applaud you willingness to learn, but your actual ignorance to the topics you continue to try to carry discussions on is quite comical. Thanks for the laughs.

As for your reading comprehension skills, (I'll just pick out one example for you to keep it simple...)

>>
>>
>>First, I don't think anyone in this discussion actually said that -- the closest I could find was a statement that baby milks would be likely to eat larvae OR lizards in the wild.
>>

I'll do the research for you...Here's the statement you couldn't find my PhD.

"but It's like you said Tony, these milks would eat mice anyway after a few months of growth from taking lizards. my point being baby milks want lizards."

Will they give a PhD to anyone with a bank account nowadays? Please try to read and understand posts before contributing your "I do not have a point" responses or take it to private messages or emails instead of making us all suffer through these tooth pulling experiences you have been putting us through.

Good luck with your learning as I have had enough. Try doing a little research on your own before you come here and try to correct posts that you are proving to know very little about.
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Joe

>>"but It's like you said Tony, these milks would eat mice anyway after a few months of growth from taking lizards. my point being baby milks want lizards."

Ahh, thanks for pointing that out! I missed it in all the "noise".

So -- why do you think that is not a reasonable statement? Do you still believe that most milks will never see a lizard, as you originally stated?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Is this Joe M an alias of Jeff Schofield???
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel Sinaloan
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

>>Is this Joe M an alias of Jeff Schofield???

Sounds like him, don't it?

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Yeah!! Whats the odds of TWO guys on here that know absolutely EVERYTHING??? I am betting they BOTH get beat up alot!!
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel Sinaloan
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

didn't this start as amole...and anoles and easterns don't mix?.....then it became any liz?....

Ok....how many easterns ever eat a gecko?......

(where the hell is Geicko located?).....

.....and remember...in 15 minutes or less.....you too can save a fence lizard.....???

......
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..................................J Y

>>didn't this start as amole...and anoles and easterns don't mix?.....then it became any liz?....

That was a separate discussion. They sort of converged.

>>
>>Ok....how many easterns ever eat a gecko?......

I dunno. How many Easterns ever DO eat a gecko?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

your maps make Joes point quite well.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>your maps make Joes point quite well.

How? Those maps actually show that most of the range of Eastern milks is contiguous with at least one lizard species.

Anyway, how about your own input? I'd like to know -- do you agree with Joe's original statement that most Eastern milks are very unlikely to ever meet a lizard in native habitat?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

with the NE addendum, yes.

>>with the NE addendum, yes.

I think we can agree that *New England* milks are unlikely to meet a lizard -- but that is certainly not MOST Eastern milks. What do you think about the likelihood of "MOST" Eastern milks ever encountering a lizard?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I cannot resist the urge to ad to this debate simply because my findings are very odd. I find many LTT around where I live in MD. Funny thing is I have NEVER found a lizard of any kind. I short drive over to S. MD and I find TONS of lizards (ground skinks, five lined, and fence lizards) I have never found an LTT there but I know temporalis are found there. I also herp a place twenty minutes from my house where I find TONS of lizards (all five lined) but have never found a LTT there in thirty years of herping the area. I always found this strange that the two have never been found together yet I find them both within a short drive of each other. NOT taking sides here but just adding my observations over a thirty year period.

>>I cannot resist the urge to ad to this debate simply because my findings are very odd. I find many LTT around where I live in MD. Funny thing is I have NEVER found a lizard of any kind.

Maybe the milks have eaten them all.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LMAO!! Yeah, I have always found it strange that I don't find lizards around here but find lots of snakes. I have caught quite a few LTT that have regurgitated small garter snakes and ringneck snakes. Funny thing is, I got my hatchlings eating two years ago with the aid of gekos!! They are not found anywhere near where I live.

>>LMAO!! Yeah, I have always found it strange that I don't find lizards around here but find lots of snakes. I have caught quite a few LTT that have regurgitated small garter snakes and ringneck snakes.

Now, Joe.....you KNOW that ringnecks are poisonous....after all, Jeff said so -- so it must be true....

Maybe those milks regurged the ringnecks because they had been poisoned?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Have you ever had an interesting idea or an original thought related to anything resembling a milksnake besides a ultramel corn? Ever had anything good to say about anyone or anything that didnt agree with you? Geez....

I say many nice things about people who don't agree with me -- when they can do so in a rational and civil manner. You ought to try it some time.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Remember that Lampropeltines have been known to eat venomous snakes in the wild; and I have seen pix of eastern milks eating garter snakes.

It could be that the milks were just too tired to swallow after subduing the snakes that were offered. Snakes will put up a spirited fight when being constricted.

crocacutus

OK, I get the feeling you were being sarcastic about ringnecks being poisonous, so I'll clarify.

Ringnecks have actually been shown to be capable of producing venom, or at least toxic saliva. So can a variety of harmless colubrids, like garters and even Pantherophis rat snakes.

"Evidence of toxic saliva in some colubrid snakes of the United States

Donald M. McKinstrya

aBehrend College, The Pennsylvania State University, Erie, Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Accepted 4 April 1978.
Available online 21 November 2002."

(published in Toxicon)

Sorry to interrupt if you were joking ...

crocacutus

She has been told this repeatedly but because she once saw a pic of a ringneck being eaten she has it in her head to disregard anything resembling "proof". I might be a tad responsible(HeHeHe)for getting her so adamant, but good luck telling her she's wrong! It makes sense to most, salamanders(ringnecks main diet)are known to carry toxins and they will certainly bioaccumulate in predatory species. I'm sure some are more toxic than others, and there has to be a reason why they are found under the same cover with milks when green, brown, red belly, earth and other tasty snakes wont be found near a healthy milk.

Don't worry about it, Croc. It's a long story from another thread, in which Jeff boldly and repeatedly claimed that ringneck snakes are poisonous for other snakes to eat. Old news!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters