Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some of my nigritas

the splendidas

just a few of my finds this year

Chris

2.2 splendida
1.1 nigrita
1.1 ruthveni

I especially like that Copperhaed at the end. That thing is beautiful. I see you have some Ruthvens? Post pics of those when you get a chance.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

just went to take some pics of some of my snakes that i do not have pics of to put on here (including the ruthvens) but the male ruthvens is in blue and the female is tucked away in her lay box (hopefully i will have some eggs tonight) - so the pics will come later

Chris

2.2 splendida
1.1 nigrita
1.1 ruthveni

What area is that copperhead from? That thing looks amazing. Too bad I have to have special permits for venomous here in Florida cause those are nice!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That copperhead is from Callahan county in TX - a friend showed me a great area to find them and most look like that, the best looking copperheads i have ever seen come from that area
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Chris - TX

2.2 Splendida
1.1 Nigrita
1.1 Ruthveni

That has to be one of the best looking CH I've ever seen! It looks hypo! Ha ha a Copperhead Morph!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>That has to be one of the best looking CH I've ever seen! It looks hypo! Ha ha a Copperhead Morph!

There are copperhead morphs....
Have you ever seen an Anery Copperhead?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I've seen a lucistic Rattler, ahuh ahuh.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>I've seen a lucistic Rattler, ahuh ahuh.
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There's lots of Rattler morphs.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

That splendida looks more like a speckled king than a desert king?

Kerby...
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It is a wild caught from an area where both can be found and i have heard folks tell me it looks like both and even had folks tell me it looks like an intergrade - im not an expert my any means but i have had more folks tell me it looks to be a splendida - I just went to take some better pics of it to try and let you experts decide but he is in blue right now - will try and get some more identifiable photos of him soon
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Chris - TX

2.2 Splendida
1.1 Nigrita
1.1 Ruthveni

>>It is a wild caught from an area where both can be found and i have heard folks tell me it looks like both and even had folks tell me it looks like an intergrade - im not an expert my any means but i have had more folks tell me it looks to be a splendida - I just went to take some better pics of it to try and let you experts decide but he is in blue right now - will try and get some more identifiable photos of him soon
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Those folks that told you it looked like an intergrade are right.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

A thought about this. To be a intergrade, it must be the product of both a speckled and a desert king. Most likely its an intermediate pattern because its a product of other animals with intermediate patterns.

You see the cline from one type to another is normally a series of populations with inbetween patterns mixed with normal patterns, until it becomes another type. You normally do not see a product of two different types, an intergrade.

Your thoughts, Cheers

>>A thought about this. To be a intergrade, it must be the product of both a speckled and a desert king. Most likely its an intermediate pattern because its a product of other animals with intermediate patterns.
>>
>> You see the cline from one type to another is normally a series of populations with inbetween patterns mixed with normal patterns, until it becomes another type. You normally do not see a product of two different types, an intergrade.
>>
>> Your thoughts, Cheers

Agreed....it is what it is then......I guess we misuse the term "intergrade" when we should be saying that it has phenotypical characteristics from both Splendida and Holbrooki.....

But it is what it is.....

Maybe there was a true relict intergrade down the family tree....Or it is from an intergrade population?????
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Here is another male collected from 2 counties north of the one above: thoughts on it desert/speckled

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Chris - TX

2.2 Splendida
1.1 Nigrita
1.1 Ruthveni

>>Here is another male collected from 2 counties north of the one above: thoughts on it desert/speckled
>>
It phenotypically looks more like a splendida than the prior one you posted but both seem to have some Holbrooki influence........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

It appears theres a viewpoint that these animals are only the names we call them. When in fact, the names we call them are made up by us and have little to do with the animal.

In this case, these kingsnakes, There are different looking types in certain areas, and a cline of migration between them. Another way to look at it is, its one snake in a constant change to another.

The change can be understood not by genetics, but instead by habitat. That is, the phenotype difintion. Phenotype is the product of genotype and natural selection. So isnt is possible and something to consider that the habitat is what is not only causing the different species, speckleds to desert, but is also what is causing and allowing intermedia patterns and color.

I know the complicated factors and history of naming makes us concentrate on that. But if you just sit and look at it, the names we call them are simply made up. As the animals in nature are truly REAL and it does not matter what we call them.

The names we call them change with each generation of taxo folks who come in looking for a different way to name something that already has a name. Its to a point of insanity and only going to get worse. Now they look at parts so small it cannot be seen by the naked eye. Yet, the animals are seen by the naked eye and our eyes can and should tell us what to call them.

In my opinion, naming animals based on seperations placed only by us is silly and narsissitic. For instance, why didn't we name the intergrades a species and the animals from areas inbetween, intergrades. As the areas of intergrades/intermediates, is as large as the pure forms.

The reality is, the naming and understanding of THIS TYPE of situation, has gone from the animals, to the lab and the lab forgot about the actual animals.

Anyway, the point is, this is merely conversation to place doubt on the hows and whys we think like we do. There are a million thoughts on this subject, Yet the animals in nature, these kings, are what is consistant.

What we have is a snake that is speckled, migrating into a snake, both east and west, to a snake that is banded. And along the way are animals all inbetween and in a very consistant manner.

This thought that the inbetween animals are not PURE or genetically pure(breeding eachother) is so very odd. To call them intergrades between two pure forms is silly, they are as pure and any other king of this type. Cheers

In my opinion, naming animals based on seperations placed only by us is silly and narsissitic. For instance, why didn't we name the intergrades a species and the animals from areas inbetween, intergrades. As the areas of intergrades/intermediates, is as large as the pure forms.

Thats easy. When you look at a range map just reverse all the intergade zones with the spp zones. Call the intgrade zones pure and the others intergrades.

Just kidding.

But look at what Spiteri did with the Rosys. This "naming" thing will go on forever and has been around since man was created. It is our God given job.
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www.Bluerosy.com

This "naming" thing will go on forever and has been around since man was created. It is our God given job.

I like this Rainer!

Just one point I want to throw into all this is the OP said it was an area where you can find both, correct?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>This "naming" thing will go on forever and has been around since man was created. It is our God given job.
>>
>>
>>I like this Rainer!
>>
>>Just one point I want to throw into all this is the OP said it was an area where you can find both, correct?

I'm from that same area..The "intergrade zone" crosses Texas from North Panhandle to just north of Copano Bay on the Gulf Coast.....
I live south of Copano Bay......You can find holbrooki phenotypes north of the Bay and Splendida phenotypes in Nueces County.......In between you find both and those that look like they are holbrooki/splendida.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

The discussion should not be about phenotypes, but instead genotypes.

You see, if the genotypic variation in the population includes speckled types, blotched types, etc. then both are normal to that population without geneflow to either type. So they are pure and not intergrades.

Yes the word intergrade is not used correctly. Thats why I keep bringing it up. It keeps being taught to newbies and incorrectly so.

Again because a wild caught snake(therefore pure) does not fit in our arbitrary names, does not make it a intergrade. Like you say, it is what it is. Our names are not accurate and do not fit the intire population. They only help in certain areas. I guess the concept of all right or all wrong is what is questioned here. These names are NOT ALL RIGHT. They are right in a loose sort of way. They are helpful with certain naturally occuring populations, and are not helpful in others.

Again, its a belief in man and his names, over natures animals. We somehow think our names tell the animals what they are. They don't. Cheers

Yes, it was collected in an area where, before this whole discussion got to where it is now, i would have said you could find both the holbrooki and the splendida... Now im just going to say that you can find getula that can sometimes look like speckled kings and sometimes these getula you find here look more like desert kings.

hows that?
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Chris - TX

2.2 Splendida
1.1 Nigrita
1.1 Ruthveni

and you would be right!

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Todd Hughes

That's exactly right!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Frank, there is a reason for science. Every snake isnt JUST what you SEE. There are plenty of interesting things going on within animals to intrigue science. Do I believe in the naming circle jerk that goes on? NOPE. You are right about purity and intergrades, but there are scientists that are productive for more than just the letters after their name. Reading and learning science brings us all up to speed on the understanding of the biology, this is no substitute for field work. We will always need BOTH Frank. I'm sure any lab guy that has met you has shown you the proper respect, maybe its time you start giving something back? Write a book! I know we would all read it, but do us all a favor, get a PATIENT ghost writer! LMAO!

Don't go off the deep end buddy, I am well aware of science and whats inside of snakes.

That is not the point.

The naming of snakes does not have to penetrate deep inside the unseen caverns of snakes. It is of utility to name them by what we see and its simple and easy to do.

If there is no apparent visual difference, then the base names, genus and species, should reconize that. if there are genetic isolation differences, then some other name should reconize that.

The point is simple, the names need to be of use and tell us what we have without investigating a genetic data base full of conflict.

What I keep bringing up is, currently the trend of scientific nomenclature is to be OF NO COMMON USE. The use of genus and species, is being lost thru the use of tools and technology that do not lend to a base understanding. As in, what the hell is in my snake bag.

The reality is, what are these names used for. What is there purpose? who the heck uses them?

The point is, genus and species is supposed to be used by layfolks, not researchers or taxo boys. Genus and species is a tool for common identification, not something for deep genetic discussion and debate.

As what appears normal. Taxo folks have lost their purpose, and are taking something simple and complicating it to a point of being useless.

Yes, each researcher comes up with valid reasons to say what they say, but what is forgotten is the overall product. The end result needs to be OF USE. If its not of use, then its wrong.

So I ask, is the simple genus and species names suppose to reflect deep genetic historical relationships, or are they simple tools to make a consistant ID? Cheers

Unseless indeed! LOL. Tell us what you really think Frank. I'm just glad I agree with you on this or I'd have to spend a lot more time typing.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>> This thought that the inbetween animals are not PURE or genetically pure(breeding eachother) is so very odd. To call them intergrades between two pure forms is silly, they are as pure and any other king of this type. Cheers

Definitely correct Frank.
I don't think the word intergrade means unpure.....
It is just a mis used term for those inbetween wild specimens...
I think there are man made intergrades though....

Like I stated above.....
They are what they are......nothing else.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think there are man made intergrades though

Anytime two snakes that are bred together that are not from the exact geographical location (not range extension)rock, hillside, slope. they are "man made" intergrades. You can catch a rosy boa from one side of the hill and find deserts. The other side of the hill have coastals x deserts that are an inbetween form of both the desert and coastal forms. yet both are froms are less than a mile apart. Same goes for road collecting. You can drive from road that goes down to a basin. Elevation, plants , life zones are different. Those snakes would never meet in the wild.

So unless we are going by the range extensions maps they are all man made intergrades when bred in captivity.
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www.Bluerosy.com

That's what I was leading into....
You stole all my thunder Rainer.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

this is why exact locality snakes are what I prefer to breed, but let's face it, I'll breed mexicana for the fun of it too. If I were absolutely sure, i.e., Frank or I caught it, lol, I would dub them pure locality, but what is out there for us to buy...well, I'm not sinking anyones' fortune into any of that muck, lol! The snake in question in the o.p.s' set is definitely a splendida, just a speckly one, they are everywhere in Texas. And you know, the more I study any area, the more genotypes I find. I used to think they were relict pops but they are just secretive. Every once in a while, if you get off your butt and go looking for them, you "stumble" onto lots of different things, if you put in the time.

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Todd Hughes

nm