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When is a morph a morph?

jscrick Jul 26, 2010 10:17 AM

As in the case of the Hyper, I'm just curious as to if this would be a case of a morph or a pure locality/pure ssp.? Not picking on the Hyper Peruvian per-se, as EVERY form/ssp./locality does the same thing after several generations of selective breeding in captivity. Just happens to be a current example.

My opinion is that once a phenotype no longer looks like a typical or any other naturally occurring form it is indeed a "morph" and no longer considered a "Pure" whatever, regardless.

Sure would like to hear some opinions on this.

Thanks,
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Replies (7)

VolcomHerp Jul 26, 2010 10:29 AM

Those hyper Peruvians are a LEGIT PURE BOA MORPH in my book!

LarM Jul 26, 2010 11:18 AM

I believe I got this definition from an Andrew Potts post at some point in the past.

Morph Definition Of

Quote:
Morph - A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include Albino, Anerythristic, Arabesque, genetically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic.

These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

. . . Lar M

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GainesReptiles Jul 26, 2010 03:52 PM

Exactly right, Larry ...

KEY WORDS: "proven to be genetic" !!!

jscrick Jul 26, 2010 07:07 PM

I don't have a problem with "proven genetic". I'm assuming it is reproducible. That's not the issue.

Once again, the issue is a matter of terminology. Is a reproducible phenotype that looks nothing like the wild phenotype, or any wild phenotype known to NATURALLY occur, considered a "Morph" and not a "pure" locality/ssp./form?

Future progeny will never go back to resembling "typical" animals for that locality/ssp./form. There will have been too much inbreeding and genetic mutation at that point. If bred back to the "normal", they may indeed throw normal hets or give 50% normal looking offspring.

This is a matter the standard well documented genetic phenotypical progression in captive breeding and domestication of wild type animals...dogs, cats, birds, fish, lizards, turtles, snakes, etc.

This speaks back to the individual's preferred acceptance of provenance, as stated by the Boaphile earlier. Just wanted opinions. In the case of the "Hyper" It is a Morph (Hyperpigmented) and it is a locality, Pucallpa. It is not a typical Pucallpa, however. At what point is it no longer a pure Pucallpa?

Take Kingsnakes and Milksnakes for example, there is absolutely no way I'd put my money on any one of those ssp. or localities as being pure. Back in the 90's, there was a reasonable probability of getting a pure specimen. Here is another example - the Eastern Hognose - there are naturally occurring variant forms, ie. spotted/blotched/normal, black, and red. However an albino Hognose is a Morph.

Just considering opinions.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

amiemac9 Jul 27, 2010 07:44 AM

Well, they are pure locality until you breed that morph to a boa that is not of the same locality.

Since you mentioned it, I'll use the hyper Peruvians..... The original ones produced will always be Pucallpa Peruvians in which they are a morph AND a locality. Once one is bred to a boa from another locale like a Colombian for example, then that breeding will not produce pure locality, then it is only a morph.

Another example:

El Salvador blood x El Salvador blood ...a locale and a morph

El Salvador blood x Colombian ....no longer a pure locale, just a morph.

Amie

voodoomagik Jul 27, 2010 11:00 AM

Hey, Lar!
Great response!
The only part that made me pause was the pastel/line breeding thought.
So you guys consider polygenic traits to be morphs?
Would a lipstick albino be two morphs then?
I guess I think of morphs as single isolated genes that are more predictably reproducible.
Just curious about what you think.
Aaron
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

BrandonSander Jul 27, 2010 01:12 PM

Personally, I would not consider "Locality" to be a morph. Locality differences in all species of all animals are simply pockets of individual populations that through segregation from outside populations have tended to display a number of similar (and oftentimes) polygenic traits. While the locality traits are obviously heritable they are NOT the result of a mutation to one (or several) of the genes that occur naturally in the population in question.

I would describe a morph to be the result of a heritable mutation to one or more genes that determine the color or pattern (or, in some cases, both color and pattern) in an otherwise wild type individual. Taking it one step further, I would also elaborate on the "heritable" aspect of this definition by stating that the mutation should only affect the appearance of the animal and not it's overall physical form (an example being: two-heads, no tongue, no eyes, blindness in general). In other words, it should not affect the animal's ability to grow to maturity and mate.

Obviously, this would not mean that albinos (for instance) are excluded because the trait makes camouflage nearly impossible for babies and it could be argued that it decreases their life expectancy in the wild. What I am talking about is simply excluding mutations that result in more than a change in the animal's color and/or pattern.

With this (admittedly long-winded) definition in mind, I would not consider animals that have been selectively bred to bring out one or more traits to be morphs since there is no real mutation going on. Selective breeding is more akin to "steering" or "nudging" the path of evolution in a general direction whereas morphs are mutations. Breeding morphs is less like a "nudge" to evolution and more like a full on tackle to force the result of the breeding.

(No offense to Jeff's Pastel "morph" or anyone else that has selectively bred boas, pythons or any other animal to create a new "look". I'm speaking of a definition that works outside of the reptile community and general marketing practices. It is generally accepted that certain selectively bred traits are considered morphs within our reptile culture. This works well for us because it follows the practice of keeping things simple. The main difference between a selectively bred "morph" and a "true" morph is that selectively bred morphs are "created" by man whereas true morphs are mutations that are generally "discovered" by man. You could selectively breed until Doomsday and never create an Albino - at least not without the Albino mutation.)

Combination morphs would also not be considered morphs under this definition. They would be viewed simply for what they are: a combination of two or more morphs phenotypically displayed in one animal.

So, long (completely PERSONAL) definition, made short, a "Morph" is defined as having all of the following characteristics:

-Is the result of a MUTATION to a gene (or genes) controlling color, pattern or both in an animal
-Is heritable
-Must be able to be separated from other genes (in other words, bred into or out of a given population
-Cannot physically alter the animal's general form, whether or not the alteration is considered beneficial or detrimental

Yes, there are some morphs that can be lethal in their homozygous form (or, more rarely, when combined with other morphs) but these tend to be the exception rather than the rule. In their heterozygous state they still produce a viable, fertile animal that could reasonably be expected to live to maturity.

There you have it, I'm always long-winded, but I think (and unfortunately for some of my friends and family) and speak the same way I write. I like to cover all of my bases and define things as accurately as possible. Sure, I may have left something out, if so, PLEASE, let me know. There are probably some aspects of this that I hadn't considered.
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