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kinked and deformed....question....

macajuel Jul 27, 2010 09:44 PM

So its her 3rd season producing for me but the worst resutls thus far. Yr 1 = 15 babies, all perfect, yr 2 = 17 babies, 1 premie that ended up passing, this yr = 10 perfect, 6 slugs and 1 badly kinked and deformed. It is a premie with a face deformity (missing an eye and no tongue flicking) and a kink 1/4 way down from its head.

We moved from the east coast to Phoenix less than a yr ago, so i want to say that the weather may be the factor for the slugs and poor outcome when compared to past litters.

My questions is, and please excuse the nature of this one, how can I humanely put down the premie? Or should I give it a chance? I do not want it to suffer.

If this question was asked before on the forum, I apologize. Also for the long post.

Thanks all!

Shawn
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2.2 BCI

Replies (13)

maizeysdad Jul 27, 2010 10:26 PM

Pop it into the freezer. As an ectotherm, it will quickly lose any "consciousness" and it will shut down and die in its sleep (hypothermia) much quicker than a warm blooded animal would.

boacraze Jul 28, 2010 05:22 AM

maizymaid hit the nail on the head! just freeze it it wont suffer what-so-ever

Z_G_Reptiles Jul 28, 2010 08:11 AM

I'm just curious, how do you figure it wont suffer "what so ever" has there been any tests that prove it's not painful for them? because from what I've herd and read, it's extremely painful when your blood starts to ice up.

Thanks
Zack
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Zack Greens Reptiles

silverecho11 Jul 28, 2010 02:49 PM

Im pretty sure it would go unconscious before its blood would freeze. They need heat to function, if they are too cold they simply cant function. Its not that they stop functioning when they freeze completely, but when they simply get too cold. I had the same question though and that is a very good suggestion.

kaiyudsai Jul 28, 2010 10:59 AM

It's probably less to do with the weather and more to do with genetics.... Was this a morph breeding?
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

macajuel Jul 29, 2010 10:32 PM

sorry for the late response...work is kicking my tush...they are not morphs, common Colombians. Dunno if the genetics have a play since i have success for the last 2 breedings. ill give her a break as hognose15 suggested.

hognose15 Jul 28, 2010 01:22 PM

Have you bred her for 3 consecutive years? If you have, stop! Give her a rest. Let her recover for at least a year. I know some breeders will breed their girls every year. They need to fatten up and heal up. Just like humans, pregnancy takes its toll. Boas aren't like cats or dogs with a 9 week gestation. Being mammals, cats and dogs recover quicker because of their metabolism.

This could be the main reason why you've had drop off in numbers and health.

macajuel Jul 29, 2010 10:35 PM

I will take your advise on this one. She def needs a break. Hopefully she spits out more healthier babies in 2 yrs, in the mean time i will work on my other female who i have tried to breed 2 yrs now with now luck. This hobby can def sometimes be a challenge!

Thanks for the advise!

Shawn

BrandonSander Jul 28, 2010 03:09 PM

The freezer method is usually what people suggest as being humane and painless. Of course, if you think it through, it is probably pretty painful (or at the minimum - VERY uncomfortable).

Since these animal are exothermic freezing is not a bad route to go, but you will be moving a fully alert animal from the relative temperature of a jungle to the climatic temperature of the Arctic. Ever take a cold shower? Yes? Now imagine that with ice water - same thing. These animals DO have pain and temperature receptors in their skin.

Yes, they will eventually "go to sleep" and then die from the cold in the freezer. It would be much more humane to cool them down to that state of stupor/sleep BEFORE introducing them to the freezer.

The best way to do that is to place the snake into a RubberMaid or Tupperware container and place that container into your refrigerator for a couple hours. After that, the snake should have slowly cooled down enough to be in that stupor/sleep state that people talk about that makes freezing humane. THEN place the whole container (with lid obviously) into your freezer.

People talk about just placing the snake into a zip lock bag. This essentially would be like laying in the snow naked since there is essentially nothing to separate the snake's skin from the frozen surfaces of the freezer. The advantage of using the TupperWare/Refrigerator method is that the air trapped within the container slowly cools down allowing the animals natural body chemistry and metabolism adequate time to adjust to the temperatures and place the snake into the desired (and ultimately more humane) stupor.

Look at it this way: fish are also exothermic. But would you purchase a fish from the pet store and immediately dump it into your tank when you got home? No. You would shock it's system regardless of whether the ambient water temperature of your tank was warmer or cooler than the body temperature of the fish. Instead, to avoid shock and to allow the fish's body time to adjust you would place the entire plastic bag that you carried the fish home in into the tank of water and allow the bag's water time to warm up or cool down to the temperature of the water in the tank.

People tend to forget (or they simply do not realize) that metabolism - even in exothermic animals- is a biochemical process as much as it is a process that relies on external temperatures. Since it is a biochemical PROCESS it does take time for the animal's body to enter and exit the various stages of alertness. This is why you see snakes basking in the sun for (sometimes) hours at a time - it takes time for them to warm up to "full alert mode" - the same is true for cooling them down to enter the "sleep/stupor mode".

After this, I really hope I don't see too many more posts that claim putting an 80-90 degree animal directly into a below freezing environment is "humane". In the end, it IS a humane way to euthanize them, however, it is the LAST STEP in the process - not the ONLY step.

[Brandon steps down from soap box and exits stage right.]
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Stay United!

I'm still not sure if it's weird that my best friend is a two year old boa named Ronin. He's quiet, non-judgemental and listens... what more could you want?

Z_G_Reptiles Jul 28, 2010 04:30 PM

Thanks Brandon for such a in-depth explanation.

Zack
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Zack Greens Reptiles

macajuel Jul 29, 2010 10:44 PM

Sorry for the late response.

Well said Brandon! This is def a lot more advise that i expected, I truly appreciate it! I totally understand your point as it is a valid one.

How long would you suggest that the container stay in the freeze for? I have heard people say for a week, would you say this is accurate?

Thanks for your further input!!

Shawn

BrandonSander Jul 30, 2010 11:12 AM

I would say a week in the freezer is a tad on the "Overkill" side - they are not going to survive being frozen solid - so I'd just keep them in there until that point. Anything after that really won't make a difference one way or another.

A couple other points:

If you'd like to make the process an even more gradual (and thus, give the snake's body even more time to adjust), before placing the RubberMaid refrigerator you can leave it out for a couple hours so the snake's body can adjust to the ambient room temperature.

This way you are stepping down it's core body temperature in roughly 20-30 degree F increments and the air within the Rubbermaid will function as a sort of insulation that will slowly change with the ambient temperatures.

Rack/Cage/Tub = 80-90 degrees F
Ambient Room Temperature = 65-75 degrees F
Refrigerator Temperature = Roughly 40 degrees F
Freezer = 32 degrees F or below

The other pointer I was going to mention - I assume you have some sort of temperature gun you can use it to periodically take the snakes surface temperature to see if it is "ready" to move onto the next stage. Of course, you will also want to observe it's overall behavior to see if it is in a stupor or not.

Hopefully, that helps. If you have anymore questions don't be afraid to ask.
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Stay United!

I'm still not sure if it's weird that my best friend is a two year old boa named Ronin. He's quiet, non-judgemental and listens... what more could you want?

macajuel Jul 31, 2010 01:24 AM

Brandon, you have been more than helpful with your insight. I will follow your advise on this and be sure to consult you with any furter questions.

I am greatful for your advise, both for myself and for the readers who like me are not familiar with this portion of the hobby.

Thanks again for your advise!

Shawn

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