Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've noticed that some people have crossed Suriname B.c.c. with Columbian B.c.i. (as well as Suriname X Argentine) Initially, I thought that this type of cross was considered somewhat "taboo" by the boa fans, - maybe I was wrong.

Anyways, I'm wondering if anyone out there either has or knows someone who has ever crossed Suriname B.c.c. with Peruvian B.c.c.?? If so, would you have any photos you could post please? Baby or adult photos would be fine, but I'm really more interested in seeing what the resulting adults of this pairing would look like.

Also, if anyone knows of any other pairings with Suriname B.c.c. besides with Columbians or Argentines, I'd be interested in seeing photos of those as well.

I'm not trying to start a debate about whether it is okay to perform these types of crosses or not. I am simply wondering if it has been done and if anyone has any pictures. If a debate starts - that's cool, but please, keep it civil (I know that I really don't have to say that to this crowd - 99.999% of you guys and gals are pretty open minded and understand the difference between a civil debate and an open argument.)
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Stay United!

I'm still not sure if it's weird that my best friend is a two year old boa named Ronin. He's quiet, non-judgemental and listens... what more could you want?

Most of the people that work with bcc extensively are totally against that sort of stuff...... and I've never seen any advertised for sale..... I know that Suri x Argentines are hideous... I had to laugh at the price I saw one selling for a while back... I know morphers have started using bcc to improve their morphs...... but as a serious bcc enthusiast myself.... I don't really like seeing it.....

You can't really improve upon the bcc... theyre perfect already..... every attempt I've seen to monkey with their genetics has produced something worse that the original parents.....
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

I can't see anything good coming from a b.c.o x b.c.c breeding...

Im sure someone has to come up with some more pure Albino Surinames or at least het's in the near future.

One question I ask to you BCC keepers , do you ever cross Suriname x Guyana?

I agree, mixing BCC with anything only improves the looks of the other animals involved (bci, bco, etc.), it always makes an animal that's uglier than the original BCC. Using a BCC in a project is essentially a shortcut to years and generations of selective breeding. And honestly, the goal of using them is to create an animal that looks nothing like the original animal (bci, bco, etc.) that it was paired with (ie, bci's with REALLY red tails).

As for Suriname X Guyana locality crosses. Yes. It happens. A LOT. It happens knowingly, and unknowingly. For many years (and probably still today), many importers separated their shipments from Suriname and Guyana by attaching a label of "Suriname" to the "pretty ones" (and/or pink boas) and a label of "Guyana" to the "ugly ones" (and/or purple boas). Those importers, and others will also happily sell you whatever you're looking for (if they just got a shipment of Surinamese BCC and you call up looking for Guyanese BCC, GUESS WHAT SHIPMENT THEY JUST GOT IN!!!?? lol Even guys with great reputations in this business will do that). So, because of the relabeling, many people have a Guyanese BCC and think they have a Surinamese BCC, and vice versa. So, when they breed that animal, they are often unknowingly crossing the two localities.

There are also people who truly do have a Surinamese and a Guyanese BCC and intentionally breed them together. I see nothing wrong with this as long as they are advertised as either Suriname X Guyana, or, Guyana Shield BCC as both labels are correct. To call them one or the other is dishonest. I do not breed Surinamese to Guyanese for many reasons, one of which is that I don't have any Surinamese (any more).

Finally, there are other people who buy a boa that is legitimately from Guyana, and then when it arrives in their collection, they arbitrarily begin telling people it's a Suriname. I'm not aware of this situation happening in reverse (Surinamese magically becoming Guyanese) as I think this goes back to my second paragraph about "ugly ones" and "pretty ones" and the consequences of the Guyana label becoming less desirable.

How's that for a short answer? lol

jb

PS, here's my favorite Guyanese boa. Notice she's pretty and pink - not like some dishonest importers would have you believe these boas are.

She was a little over 2 in this picture and has since gone on to give me two litters of BEAUTIFUL Guyanese BCC and is gravid again She's 9 years old now
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Man oh man she's pretty. Can I see her as an adult?

"Man oh man she's pretty. Can I see her as an adult?"

Thanks! And, SURE!

This was about 8 months after her second litter, before she had put on all of her muscle tone again. She was about 3-4 lbs underweight and so she didn't have the body mass she should. I don't powerfeed the crap out of my animals in order to put weight on them as it ends up mostly being fat - and I don't want fat boas - I want MUSCULAR boas. Also, she continued to lighten back up dorsally, and regain more of her lateral coloration over the course of the summer. Although it was never as intense as it was when she was a juvenile (but still not bad for an 8 year old female that had 2 litters, back to back). I just never got any newer updated photos of her afterward. The pic is from over a year ago.

I do look forward to getting her back in shape again after this next litter. I'd like to give her another 2 years between litters, and possibly 3. I'm wondering if that 3rd year will REALLY bring out the magic in her color

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Some of the things I really like about that snake are: Arrow on the head that follows down the neck, the almost connected saddles, The Maroon tail, The high contrast saddles and the over all color. Got pictures of the keeper babies? I really do like these colorful BCC.

Here's my keeper female from the '07 litter. Pic taken in April

Because of how far back I was, she looks smaller than she really is. She's about 3.5' long (Rose was only 5.5' long when she delivered her first litter of 15 babies and is currently ALMOST 6' long).

Here are my 1.1 holdbacks from the litter the following season ('08).

And finally, here are my 1.1 keepers from '07 (decided to sell the male recently) and my 1.1 keepers from '08 all together.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Redtailed boas from Suriname and Guyana are the same subspecies. Breeding them together is not a cross. It is the same as breeding corn snakes from North Carolina to corns from South Carolina. Boa keepers and breeders love labels and use them mostly for marketing purposes. Locality specific info on boas is unreliable at best.

"Locality specific info on boas is unreliable at best."

And you know this because you're aware of the provenance of every boa in captivity in the world? Or you're at least aware that there isn't a SINGLE boa in captivity with known locality data? I think that's a bit presumptuous...

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

after all Jonathon - you would know what presumptuous is..

here's a few quotes from your earlier post in this thread.

your quote: "it always makes an animal that's uglier than the original BCC." Question: so, do you actually KNOW (have seen)the results of ALL BCC crosses?

another quote: "And honestly, the goal of using them is to create an animal that looks nothing like the original animal (bci, bco, etc.) that it was paired with (ie, bci's with REALLY red tails)."
notice you didn't say "one possible goal.." - you indicate this is "the goal." So somehow you actually KNOW the goals (no, sorry, according to you I should use the singular.. "the goal" that breeders have for doing BCC Crosses?? Therefore, according to you, an equally valid goal CAN'T be something like trying to increase genetic variation??

But please don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying you can't say those things, I just find it odd for you to be the one for pointing the finger as someone else for being a bit presumptuous.

I just thought it was a HOOT to read that comment from you.

Patrick

your quote: "it always makes an animal that's uglier than the original BCC." Question: so, do you actually KNOW (have seen)the results of ALL BCC crosses?

EVERY one I've seen has been uglier than the BCC used to create it. I've seen quite a few, so if I am presumptuous, I feel confident in being that way.

another quote: "And honestly, the goal of using them is to create an animal that looks nothing like the original animal (bci, bco, etc.) that it was paired with (ie, bci's with REALLY red tails)."
notice you didn't say "one possible goal.." - you indicate this is "the goal." So somehow you actually KNOW the goals (no, sorry, according to you I should use the singular.. "the goal" that breeders have for doing BCC Crosses?? Therefore, according to you, an equally valid goal CAN'T be something like trying to increase genetic variation??
If a breeder was trying to increase genetic variation, all they have to do is grab an animal from a different line (WC, CB, CBB - any will do). Also, yes, THE goal of using a different looking animal would be to produce animals that don't look like the line it's coming from. If a breeder wanted to produce "more of the same", they'd just use similar looking stock.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

the truth according to JB..

I'm still sticking to my idea of using BCC crosses for the purpose of genetic variation. I feel more certain that they are more distantly related and therefore produce THE BEST genetic variation.. in my humble opinion of course. I can't know that with certainty but it's my current thinking. I'm actually hoping that a BCC/BCI jungle cross might lead the way to producing viable super jungles.

and also in my opinion, I LOVE some of the BCC albino crosses. I personally believe that they are some of the most amazing boas..

produced by BCC/BCI cross..

I can back up JB here...... every cross I've seen has been absolutely hideous...... and they NEVER sell..... maybe you're one of the guys who creates these chimeras and you are biased... maybe you're just trolling JB's posts..... who cares.... I have the unmost respect for JB and his breeding ethics....
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

I agree that I am biased - but most of us are to some point.
And of course we all have our own opinions about what does or doesn't make a beautiful boa - so there's really no need to try to prove or disprove some elses's opinions on that.

JB is definitely not all bad - I should have been more fair about my statements if I implied that he was. I just thought it was unfair that he was making comments about Coach being presumptuous when it seemed to me he was also making presumptions.

as for what you have said about crosses never selling.. and that maybe I was the one producing these crosses.. well, I have never produced a cross (yet) but have bought and sold them - so I have evidence to the contrary that they never sell. In fact, the very first cross I ever bought was a 25% suriname/albino (or at least that's what it was described as so it could have been something else, but I was able to find some reliable sources who seemed confident that the description was correct) and I was able to sell it for almost three times the amount I paid for it.

Patrick

"Sunsets".

Some of the most beautiful and unique boas I've ever seen.

There's no doubt that new phenotypes can be created through cross-breeding. There is also no question as to the increased diversity in cross-breeds.

Go breed a chiwahwah to a chiwahwah and see what you get. (lots of chiwahwahs)

Go breed a chiwahwah to a lab and see what you get. (a wide variation of everything in between)
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-Ryan Homsey
TopNotchBoas.com Website

Ryan - the 07 female Red Group hypo I got from you is doing great and is easily one of my favorite female hypos in my collection. I may save her for another year yet as far as breedig, but just wanted you to know I was very happy with getting her from you. and speaking of hypo hoggs, I do have a nice orange hogg I could breed her with.

Patrick

Jonathan.....If you have bought a snake off the internet , show or an importer then you are taking the word of the person you get the animal from. Animals that are passed thru multiple hands with labels increase the chances of mistakes and marketing ploys. A locality animal can only be "locality" if the history is known beyond the shadow of doubt. If you scroll up a few threads you'll see that the Diazs' produced what they thought was a suriname litter only to find when they posted it that one of the parental "suris" was "guyana". The Diazs' should not be upset as it is a great looking litter of guyana shield bcc. The problem with the boa hobby is people are too caught up in the "labeling". "LOCALITY" labeling in boas is unreliable at best unless you go down and collect boas yourself. If you need a education on "locality" go over to the graybanded kingsnake forum. Those guys can tell you the county, road, mile marker and cut of a "locality" alterna. Most boas fall into a category known as "locality type" coined by the green tree python folks who understand the meanings between locality and labeling. "locality type" is labeling based on visual features common to a locality but "locality" information is not available or verifiable. Boa importers use labels based on origin from which a shipment was received. The difference between guyana type bcc and suri type bcc is whats in your head. Here are some "locality type" guyana shield bcc. They were called suri or guyana when I got them but could not be verified so they are not true "locality" animals. Can you tell which is which.

Coach, you kind of hit on what I brought up on the thread above. Actually, you hit the nail right on the head. The Suriname/Guyana localities are so disputed that it might be easier to call them ALL Guyana (or Guyanese) Shield boas and then just to call them Suriname or Guyanas as a general DESCRIPTION of the animals look, not a definite marker of the animals origin.

Simply put, a clean light animal would be a Guyanese Shield locality B.c.c., Suriname-type.
A dark purple-hued animal would also be a Guyanese Shield locality B.c.c. but would be called Guyana-type.

Country of origin would not matter as much (so long as the snake originated from either Guyana or Suriname) as the REGION of origin.
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Stay United!

I'm still not sure if it's weird that my best friend is a two year old boa named Ronin. He's quiet, non-judgemental and listens... what more could you want?

The intention of my original post was simply to find out if anyone has done or knows of someone who has crossed Suris and Peruvians.

I understand that most B.c.c. keepers consider themselves to be "purists" and don't like the idea of either hybrids or crossing localities. I tend to agree with them on most of these points. Personally, I prefer the look of a "normal" B.c.c. to most of the B.c.i. morphs, but to each their own. That is just my preference.

I know that some people don't like the idea of hybrids and I understand their varying reasons for this (keep the species pure, they believe that the hybrid looks inferior or is less desirable, etc.). I'm just wondering if there was anyone out there that has crossed the various LOCALITIES of B.c.c. and if so - what were the results?

I'm specifically asking about Suris and Peruvians because it seems that they are the two most popular B.c.c. localities and I would have figured that by now, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, had to have crossed them at some point. Maybe I'm wrong. Personally, they are my favorites and I just asked out of curiosity. I figured that is someone would cross Suris with B.c.i. and B.c.o. then a B.c.c. X B.c.c. locality cross can't be THAT far fetched.
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Stay United!

I'm still not sure if it's weird that my best friend is a two year old boa named Ronin. He's quiet, non-judgemental and listens... what more could you want?

I'm specifically asking about Suris and Peruvians because it seems that they are the two most popular B.c.c. localities and I would have figured that by now, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, had to have crossed them at some point. Maybe I'm wrong. Personally, they are my favorites and I just asked out of curiosity. I figured that is someone would cross Suris with B.c.i. and B.c.o. then a B.c.c. X B.c.c. locality cross can't be THAT far fetched.

Brandon, I'm unaware of anyone having done that cross but it wouldn't surprise me in the LEAST to hear that it's been done, intentionally or not. There are animals coming out of Peru with peaks. And there are animals coming out of the Guyana Shield with pinched saddles. Knowing how unscrupulous some dealers are, they could easily "relabel" the animal to whatever they think will sell easier.

I found it interesting that you stated that Surinames and Peruvians were the two most popular BCC ssp. You're right. But what's interesting about it is that there are more Guyanese BCC exported every year than Surinamese... by roughly 100% (2,000 Guyanese vs 1,000 Surinamese). Funny how there seem to be more "Surinames"... right? Guess it's cuz there are a LOT of HOT looking Guyanese!

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

I've never seen it done.... and if it was... someone kept the details of the breeding to themselves..... IMO Peruvian bcc are very different than all other localities.. not just pattern.. but morphology..... at least the stock that we have in the US.... Im sure the closer you get to Brazil... the more they look like the other BCC locales.....

They really could be reclassified as another subspecies..... taxonomy is not an exact science and boa taxonomy in particular is a disaster...... it needs alot of work and alot more research...... we are still referencing data from the turn of the century
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

I honestly don't know? I would hope not. But you have probably just put the idea into some morphers mind now, so we will probably see it in the not too far future. Shame on you all, shame on you and your family!!! LoL! I'm not a big fan of Peruvians (that's not to say I don't like them) but I hope people haven't done it. Like Marc says most BCC breeders don't want to see that happen. Just my 50 pence!

Nothing beats the beauty of a true BCC.
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MUMS. OUT of Christmas wrapping paper? Simply convert birthday wrapping paper by adding "Jesus" after "Happy Birthday."

AMEN!!! The bcc community of hard core enthusiasts is as fanatical if not more fanatical about their boas that the GTP guys...... You may see designer redtails(highly selectively bred boas).... but you probably wont see morph attempts.... I personally will not breed any overt undesireble mutation(like albinism.. missing pigments,,, no patterns)... I see it as a genetic step backwards.... and if it pops up.. With the scarcity of some bcc localities(Brazilians, Peruvians, Trinidads, French Guianan)..... the best thing we can do is preserve their bloodlines... not monkey with them... we wont be getting in any more WC stock.... ever
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM