Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey folks. I've been agonizing in the last couple of weeks whether my final snake should be a sleek, gorgeous Black Milk or an eye-popping Tangerine Honduran. I keep flip-flopping between that glossy black and the "WOW" factor of the orange/black color contrast, and it's hard to decide since this will be my last snake for many years.
But I ran into a forum thread (not on kingsnake, I don't think) where people mentioned that the "cleanness" of a Hondo's pattern starts to fade when the snake gets old, and that the orange becomes stippled with black-tipped scales. If this is the case, then that would put me strongly in favor of the Black.
Does anyone have any experience with this? Pictures would be great if they are available. I have looked, but turned up nothing.
I realize that choosing a snake based on color is not the best determining factor in selection, but the Black and Hondo are essentially the same critter in almost every other way, so I guess it just comes down to which one I want to look at for the next 15-25 years. Thanks for your help!

You need both, of course.

I have both hondos and one MBK. They are all young, but I do want to mention that at least right now my MBK is much calmer than any of my hondos. So you might want to take that into consideration.

As for the development of tipping in the hondos, that depends on genetics. One of my tangerine youngsters already has significant tipping at just a year old, but if you look at photos around the net you'll see a good selection of older adults with no visible tipping at all. Somebody else will have to tell you just how common this is or isn't, though, 'cause I dunno!

As for size, I *believe* (doublecheck with more experienced folks than I) that the hondos will eventually be larger than the MBK.

There's very little difference between one snake and two. Get em both!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Oh darn, sorry. I read the OP too quickly. I thought you were posting about MBKs, but you were talking about black milks. So nevermind what I said about my MBK. I have heard, though, that the black milks have calm temperaments -- so that would still be a difference between them and the hondos.

Have fun choosing!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

On average, Hondurans do get larger than Mexican black kingsnakes, but the original poster was asking about a black milknsnake, which gets bigger than either.

Most Hondurans do tend to get black tipping as they age, but some morhps (hypo, vanishing pattern, pinstripe) are likely to be less affected.

Yeah, see my second post above. I read too fast the first time!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

In my experience, they are not really the same critter. Black milks are much calmer. You can actually handle the babies without them reacting as if you are gonna eat them. Hondurans are beautiful, but really squirmy (although less so as adults). Another option might be a pair of Mexican black kings. Bullet-proof, easy to breed and a perfect size. Also, amazingly inexpensive.

Yeah, "normal"(non-hypo) tangerine Hondurans, as well as most other wild/normal phenotype Hondos will tend to "tip-up" some as they mature. Some lightly, some moderately, and some so severely that they can become virtually "bi-colored" with the light inner rings especially. This really all depends on the inherited genetics of the parental bloodline. The idividuals in any given clutch can vary here too as well.

This awesome youngster I acquired in the early 90's had minimal tipping as a hatchling, and cost me $200 dollars, but as expected developed a bit more as it got older too, but it still was pretty darn "clean" as far as Hondurans went back then and didn't take away from it's looks very much.

Shortly thereafter, hypomelanistic Hondurans began to show up in the hobby. Some of these stayed very clean, while others developed a fair amount of tipping as adults. This 4 year old adult is a VERY clean specimen!

Here is an adult 5 year old hypo that displays a fair amount of "tipping".

A super-clean "vanished" pin-banded youngster(thanks Anthony!)

Here is another awesome crazy aberrant patterned hypo I own that is still clean as a whistle as an adult.

The tangerines that stay INSANELY clean are what are known as "extreme" hypos, like the ones I have and produce. These are simply mind-blowing colorful and clean. These animals have such reduced melanin(dark pigmentation) that the pattern is often reduced to pin-bands that are a VERY light silvery/grey, and even have ruby-red eyes too!

These stay amazingly clean and vivid throughout life. Many can stay flawless throughout life, and if some DO develop any tipping later on, you can barely make it out as a silver, or just barely darker shade of orange, so it takes nothing away at all from the eye-popping looks of the animal.


a gorgeous young adult male extreme

My adult female extreme hypo with her clutch that still looks unbelievable

As you can see, she is still absolutely gorgeous!

A few of the awesome hatchlings produced from her


Black milks are definitely pretty snakes, and I always like to include those in my recommendations to people too for beautiful captives to own, but if striking, eye-popping color and cleanliness is what you really desire, you might strongly consider some of these beauties. They just can't be beat!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Ooooo, ahhhhhhhh......

My own young vanishing tangerine has a lot of tipping already. But I reaaaally want one of those silver banded buggers some day!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL!,....glad you like those too, yes, these silver-banded extremes are definitely the bomb!

I can't wait to see what hatches here in a few more weeks too. There should be some real smokers in this big clutch of 12 she laid.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

wow. all excellent replies, but many thanks to Doug for multiple pics displaying varying levels of adult clean vs. stippled patterns, along with anecdotal experience! that was exactly the info i was seeking.

and in case anyone was wondering... i've decided on the black milk. i was on the fence before, this issue put me just barely in favor of the black over the honduran... and then my wife said that she likes the black. the boss gets what she wants.

thanks for your time, folks!
-j

Thank you!

Black milks are generally less nervous and flighty than Hondo's too. Those Black's make pretty darn good pets, especially after they mature a bit.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

So my prejudice will be evident when I say a Black Milk is the only snake I currently own (a pair of VA Beach Kings will soon be mine though and I can't wait!).

It's hard to argue with Dmong when you look at some of his pics of Tangerines(I'm no fan of morphs but I will admit Tangerines are the only morphs I have a liking for) but Black Milks have more of a WOW factor IMO when you have an adult in your hands and that iridescent sheen that just can't be picked up in photos is there in front of you. I am prejudiced though

Tough choice between those two, good luck with it.

Gerry

Yes, Hondurans often get black tipping as well as an overall "wash" of black as they age. Here's a photo of a two-year old het for albino Honduran of mine:

Hypo Hondurans are a good route to go to get around this problem, but even some of those will darker a bit with age.
On the other hand, you can always go the opposite route and get a "high black" anery Honduran:

Or maybe a "high black" normal (a yearling already getting black tipping):

I've been breeding Mexican Black Kings for 10 years and they're a great snake too.

Tim
Third Eye

Doug makes a great arguement with a lot of those photos, but I too am partial to the gaigeae. That iridescent sheen that Gerry talks about has too be seen to be appreciated!

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Joe