Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Everyone listen in on the Thursday July 8th podcast of Pets&Vets with Dr. Marla Lichtenberger, who is one of the staff members at the 24 hour Animal ER Emergency Center that oversaw and cared for many of the animals confiscated from the Terry Cullen raid in Milwaukee WI.

www.erforanimals.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=YbSX6j8wvhM=&tabid=36

You will quickly wonder why a veterinarian and veterinary clinic that clearly have so little knowledge and expertise in reptiles, let alone attempt to discuss them in any way, shape or form, was even put in charge of the confiscated animals. Listen in particular to the part where she talks about "hoarders".

Email- Info@erforanimals.com

I think it's a pretty good gig for her, don't you? How much money you think she's billing the good folks of Milwaukee?

How much of that $250K is going her way, in spite of her ineptitude and obvious lack of qualification.

Same thing with the do-gooder Detroit Zoo in the Global case. Do you think a municipal zoo in a city with as depressed an economy like Detroit's wouldn't jump at the chance to bilk taxpayers for thousands and get all the free inventory they want?

I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

It's a scam and a flim-flam. Send the bills to PETA and HSUS. They've got plenty of money and it's their agenda.

Collusion by willing and gullible government workers for notoriety, overtime, and something to put on their reviews at evaluation time doesn't make it right.

Wake up America! You're being fleeced from every direction and being convinced it's for your own good.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>Same thing with the do-gooder Detroit Zoo in the Global case. Do you think a municipal zoo in a city with as depressed an economy like Detroit's wouldn't jump at the chance to bilk taxpayers for thousands and get all the free inventory they want?

Hey John,

I would be willing to bet that 90% of what Detroit Zoo got from US Global died.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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"I would be willing to bet that 90% of what Detroit Zoo got from US Global died."
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust

Probably since the holding facility was not properly caring for the animals.
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Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

>>"I would be willing to bet that 90% of what Detroit Zoo got from US Global died."
>>-----
>>Cindy Steinle
>>PHFaust
>>
>>Probably since the holding facility was not properly caring for the animals.
>>-----
>>Tim Cole

I do think it is a form of neglect to not provide animals basic veterinary care. Seriously, when internal parasites are being vomited up, the least you can do is provide basic deworming.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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That may be true, but what about all the hours, overtime, and per diem all those Detroit Zoo employees received for their efforts.

I'm sure they got to spin it in the most advantageous way possible. "Look at all the good we're doing."

They got to pick and choose. If they had to take garbage as part of the package, a realist knows they would have little or no concern and/or incentive, in regard to the welfare of the everyday low end "pets".

Lack of competency on their part does not legitimize failure as an outcome. Neither does lack of resources and infrastructure to properly maintain the animals they "saved". That is a false pretext.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I've spoken to a person that initially saw Terry's animals and helped set them up properly and then was told he wasn't needed to assist with their care.

Now it appears that animals that were healthy at the time of seizure are in bad shape. This is so typical of seizures done by entities that don't have a clue about herps or herp husbandry.

I'm doing my part by providing a Husbandry Guide to all of the Animal Control Officers that I train throughout the year.
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Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

>>I've spoken to a person that initially saw Terry's animals and helped set them up properly and then was told he wasn't needed to assist with their care.
>>

And that person was probably one of the more experienced folks to deal with these animals. It was a very frustrating time for some of us. While he would not have been able to do all the day to day care, there were enough volunteers at his disposal.

>>Now it appears that animals that were healthy at the time of seizure are in bad shape. This is so typical of seizures done by entities that don't have a clue about herps or herp husbandry.
>>
>>I'm doing my part by providing a Husbandry Guide to all of the Animal Control Officers that I train throughout the year.
>>-----

The local ACOs have received basic handling and care workshops. The vast majority here feel it is low priority honestly. In the last class, there were people who flat out refused to handle a thing. Not a good sign. There is little you can do about long term handling training. When I teach my classes, it is more get it in, stabilize for the 10 day hold period (or 7 days when they are strays) and get me in there.

However it is frustrating when staff will not even try.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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Cindy - The reality and the shame of it is, they do not have the animals' interest at heart. Those animals are but stage props in a propaganda medium in order to foster a political agenda.

Once the curtain goes down and the stage lights are off those animals are discarded just as any other consumable stagecraft prop would be.

That's why THE PUBLIC MUST INSIST that those with the agenda (PETA and HSUS) pay the bill for the production. Write that into the municipal code if you have to. They can pay for the worms, the moles, and the snitches, but they can't pay for the situation that is a direct result of their activities?

Wake up America. You're being fleeced, fleeced by those that wouldn't have you shear a lamb.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Oddly enough I know far more about the US Global than I do the situation 5 mins from me. I will say that when my rescue finally got the plea, the animals that Detroit Zoo took were already gone. We took animals in very quietly, because we really did not want nor do we want any affiliation with PETA. Basically the Raid occurred, PETA made paper splashes and then left the local ASPCA high and dry with LARGE vet bills and a BUTTLOAD of animals. However I am not defending the shelter. In the two months or so that the animals were in there care, NO veterinary care was given WHAT SO EVER. The only veterinary care offered was to mammals, despite the fact that they had guidelines and recommendations and treatments given. Needless to say, I have no clue what condition the animals were in upon confiscation, but I do know what condition they were in upon arrival. In all honesty, the vast majority died with in a week or so of arrival. Who's fault is not my place to say as I did not see the animals upon intake. I just saw them 2 months after confiscation.

>>That may be true, but what about all the hours, overtime, and per diem all those Detroit Zoo employees received for their efforts.
>>
>>I'm sure they got to spin it in the most advantageous way possible. "Look at all the good we're doing."

I fully agree. In all honesty I think my group was the only non-vocal group about taking in these animals. We took them in because I did not want them to either languish in a humane society or be killed because they do not fit into the cog of what makes a good pet. I didnt want the killing machine to get its due so to speak.
>>They got to pick and choose. If they had to take garbage as part of the package, a realist knows they would have little or no concern and/or incentive, in regard to the welfare of the everyday low end "pets".

I will say they did take a batch of sliders. They also took anoles.

>>Lack of competency on their part does not legitimize failure as an outcome. Neither does lack of resources and infrastructure to properly maintain the animals they "saved". That is a false pretext.
>>

Animal control is not doing any of the care on Terry's animals. Right now apparently this is a full AZA operation. While I am not defending animal control by any means, if these animals are truly suffering, I suspect that it is something related to AZA. I have friends who are working at the local zoos involved and they are not authorized overtime for the care. Not quite sure how this is being run, but from all interior reports no one is getting overtime for the animals and the animal care staff at AC is not touching the reptiles. That is the base of the info I have.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Thanks, Cindy.

Without picking apart every word and nuance as others might, I'm pretty sure we're pretty much in agreement here.

The OT would be immediate short term, not long term.

Thanks again. I'm a big fan!

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It was expressed this way on another forum by Bob Oblak, cross-posted with permission:

" I cant understand why this vet would even want the video or radio show links on her website unless she is trying to scare away exotics clients with her unprofessional communication skills and obvious lack of knowledge of reptiles.

I know that some professionals sometimes adopt a dumbed-down, “just plain folks” communication style with laypersons to avoid being perceived as elitist, however they usually maintain a professional public persona for business reasons.
Even if she doesn’t get it, I would expect the other vets in the practice to have a clue and realize that those presentations are embarrassments that cant be good for business, and urge the practice owner to remove them from the website, and also stop making these inept public appearances for the sake of their financial futures and reputations.

As a pet owner, I would not patronize this clinic because her ignorance of reptiles would make me wonder how knowledgeable she was on canine or feline medicine as well. Not to mention the fact that she publicly slandered every animal breeder with her characterization of them as hoarders."

I couldn't listen to the whole thing/ I watched part of her video, and wonder why they picked her?? Her appalling lack of reptile knowledge stunned me.

I don't think an intelligent person would go along with their agenda.

Who's going to select a smart person for a patsy, anyway. She's just a gullible dupe for the con.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

http://www.erforanimals.com/

Comparing handling a snapper to "roping a buffalo" ?

And about "examining alligators and crocodiles"
"To examine them we need to dart them"

What?! Darting little crocodilians?

No wonder these animals are dying. With a vet like that who needs euthanasia!

Now I don't see any surprise there are not more photos from the day of the raid, or the animals the day right after, (except for the three - the pile of stuff, the dried up rodent, the caimain skeleton and the snake heap photos) which is still incredibly suspicious. I really feel that it is because as they now deteriorate in the care of these "animal savers" they can just pass blame onto Terry over the fact that they are failing.

Perhaps this might be appropriate in cases where there's clearly malpractice or inappropriate conduct:

AVMA Policy - Disciplinary Procedure of the Judicial Council

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Unebelievable. Any vet who uses the phrase "a bit creepy" when describing animals should automatically have his/her license taken away.