Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I have some questions about the Motley Moonglow "formula". I was told that breeding a Motley Ghost het Moonglow to an Albino het Snow wouldn't produce a Motley Moonglow because the Motley would cancel out the hypo gene from the one parent and , since the hypo gene isn't present in the Albino... the "best" morph you could produce from that pairing would be a Motley Snow..... is that true? That, basically, you NEED to have the Motley gene from one parent and the Hypo gene from the other?

I have a ghost het moonglow ... so it seems that I would need a motley het snow( or even a hypo het snow?) to breed it to in order to produce a motley moonglow.... if I wrong please tell me I'm mistaking..... I was seconds away from spending a small fortune on a motley ghost het moonglow to breed to an albino het snow but was asked what my goal was with the pairing and suddenly had this bomb dropped on my head......ughhhhhhhhhh

please help clear this up... thank you for any educated info!! thank you

I don't have an answer to the motley gene canceling out the hypo gene but I do know odd things have happened in past litters with the motley gene, so it is possible.

BUT, breeding your "Ghost het Albino" to a "Motley het Albino het Anery" will give you a 1/32 chance. Odds are not looking to good. And I wonder how hard it will be to tell the difference between a Motley Snow and a Motley Moonglow.

If I had a Ghost het Albino and wanted to make Motley Moonglows I would purchase a Sunglow Motley het Anery... better odds but still not great, only 9.375% but they are possible super moonglow motleys. To note, Sunglow Motley het Anerys are rare in the market and expensive, but the Moonglow Motley would be worth the investment.

yeah, from what I've been told, the odds are definitely against everyone trying for the motley moonglow. As far as your reply with the super moonglow motleys.. I am also afraid that once you get to the "super" part, the babies would have trouble staying alive... as in.. everything I have read states super motleys don't live to even 2 years old for some reason...

a side note... the person who told me you "cant" get the motley moonglow without the non-motley parent being a hypo also said that he bred sunglow motleys in which both parents had the hypo gene so he instinctively marketed them as "super" sunglow motleys and was quickly ( and harshly) corrected by everyone on Kingsnake, citing that the motley gene canceled out the hypo gene from that same parent...which cancels out the "super" possibility. I hope that makes sense..... so thats what he was basing the motley moonglow info he told me off of.... which led me here...lol....

so, yeah..... still sorta confused... LMFAO

While not proven yet, the evidence suggests that Hypo and Motley are related. Very possibly two different mutations that reside in the same gene pair. If that's correct, than Hypo/Mot x Hypo (non super) would result in Hypo/Mot, Super Hypo, Motley and Hypo babies. Each with 1/4 odds.

I don't care for the wording of "...motley gene canceled out the hypo gene from that same parent." Better IMO would be 'receiving a Motley gene from one hypo/mot parent would exclude receiving a hypo gene from that same parent"

The odds are not hard, just complicated, break it down to the individual morphs...

Albino - must receive one gene from each parent.
Anery - must receive one gene from each parent.
Hypo - must receive one gene from one parent.
Motley - must receive one gene from one parent, but cannot be the same parent that supplies the Hypo gene.

To calculate the odds in a specific pairing, multiply the individual trait odds...

For example...

Motley DH Snow x Sunglow het Snow

Albino - het x Albino = 1/2
Anery - het x het = 1/4
Hypo - normal x Hypo = 1/2
Motley - Motley x normal = 1/2

1/2 x 1/4 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/32

Of course the more of the individual genes each parent has, the better the odds of getting a baby with them all...

Snow Motley x Sunglow het Snow

Albino - Albino x Albino = all Albino
Anery - Anery x het = 1/2
Hypo - normal x Hypo = 1/2
Motley - Motley x normal = 1/2

1 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I can only speak from what i have heard since I do not even own a motley - but I have heard the same thing. to get a moonglow motley, one parent would need to cary the motley gene and the other parent would need to cary the hypo gene..

I've heard of others purchasing a hypo motley het albino and thinking that breeding it to a het albino would produce sunglow motleys, just to find out later that this can't be done.

good luck!

Your friend is correct the Motley gene and the Hypo gene rest on the same gene locus.. That means you have to have the motley gene contributed from one parent and the hypo gene from the other to have a chance of them bothing being present in one animal... Best way to make a moonglow motley would probably be a

Moonglow X Anery Motley Het Albino pairing...

Al Brown/Brown's Boas
-----
Al Brown/Brown's Boas
www.BrownsBoas.biz

Al said it all. The hypo gene has to be in the opposite animal than the motley to get the hypo motley period. Glad you found out before dropping all that money huh? Obviously moonglow to anery motley het albino would be your best bet.
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thank you for the response!!! Yesssssssssssss, trust me , I AM VERYYYY GLAD to know all of this before hand!!!! lol. I love the whole genetic formulas to figure out reasonable percentages for what you may get out of a clutch... but with these double hets , it's all but making me crazy to figure out the best way to go with what I have and why some pairings are better than others!!

As I have stated in one of these posts, I have a ghost het moonglow male and three albino het snow females and I was , basically, trying to spruce up the projects and wanted to throw something in to the mix that would be worth the time and effort and still only have to buy one male to do it with, ideally. So, I figured I'd go big with something with Motley in it and see what the best outcome could be with the addition of a cool male motley... but it sounds like , to make a motley moonglow, I would need to START with a moonglow on one side... hmmm...so, would it be a super long shot to try to use a male motley dh snow with my albino het snow female? I was asked if I was interested in buying one since posting this thread... I just don't want to get into the same situation where I am looking to spend over 2500 dollars on something and not really have to ... do you have any input? thanks and I apologize for the long message!!!!

thanks again

Thank you for your response and your suggestion as to the best possible pairing to produce that motley moonglow. Right now I have a ghost het moonglow male and three albino het snow females... so I know I need to introduce the motley gene in there somewhere ... I was offered a motley dh snow male to purchase .. but I am not sure that is what I need either since my females don't have the hypo gene(although I understand anery is actually a form of hypo) and I really am not looking to buy a another male AND a female at this point to accomplish or even attempt the motley moonglow. I have also been told with all of those genetics it would be really hard to even distinguish the motley snow from a motley moonglow( esp since one has never been produced to use as a benchmark at this point) .. but it sounds like an amazing project .. I just would rather start with the best pairing from the start, understandably.

Thank you for your help and if you have any more to add to this, I greatly appreciate all comments or suggestions!! Thanks again!!

As far as I know, nobody has done the breeding tests required to show that the hypo (salmon) and motley genes have the same locus. Linkage is another possibility that also has not been tested.

Whatever the cause, your best bet is to have one hypo parent and the other parent a motley.

Paul Hollander

Genetic are so interesting and very exciting. I have been thinking about this thread since i have read it hours ago. The conclusion that i have come up with is the best way to make Moonglow Motleys would be a Ghost Het Albino female bred by an Anery Motley Het Albino. I am just trying to grasp this whole idea. What does everyone else think?

Sorry! I just read Al's post and he has a pairing with a greater chance: Moonglow x Anery Motley Het Albino

I wasn't to far off, not so bad for being new to this and not being involved with the project.

All good info but one point not really touched on well is many pairings will work. Yeah some will have a higher probability than others.

Technically speaking the "best" odds of producing Moonglow Motleys would be - Super Motley Snow x Super Moonglow. All babies would be Moonglow Motleys!!

Minimum to get there would be Motley Het Snow x TH Moonglow with 1/64 odds.

IMO the best pairing would be either:

Albino Motley het Snow x Ghost het Moonglow
or
Anery Motley het Snow x Sunglow het Moonglow

Either of those pairings would not only produce a variety of babies but the genetics of each baby are known. For both Albino and Anery traits it either shows it or is het for it.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I would like to hear actual results from this type of breeding. I'm sure hypo motley breedings have been done many times by now, but very rarely here about the results. I plan on breeding a couple of hypo motles this season. I am only aware of one hypo motley breeding where I know about the results. It was a hypo mot bred to a albino. One hypo mot was poduced in the litter of 15-20. Forgot the # of babies produced. Perhaps that was another fluke with motley breedings not following the genetic rules. I believe it wa jermy stone who produced a primi red devil. So if this hypo mot gene is true, then there would be no way to produce a red devil or white devil or white angel or whatever you guys call the albino red devil lol... So please post some actual results. Thanks

Hey Dave,

I bred a hypo motley to a nice albino this year. I got 4 motleys het albino and 11 hypos het albino. No hypo mots and no normals.

Matt

Thanks for the information. Now we only need another 185 babies from a hypo motleys mated to snakes that are neither hypo nor motley.

Thanks for that info matt..... but then again you got all hypos and motleys.. what happen to the normals het albino... see another case of mother nature not following the rules... we still need a lot more input to come close on reaching a conclusion... until then, I will keep on breeding my hypo motleys...

If Hypo and Motley are on the same gene pair, Matt got exactly what would be expected, all visual either Hypo or Mot, no normals, no hypo/mots.....

>>Thanks for that info matt..... but then again you got all hypos and motleys.. what happen to the normals het albino... see another case of mother nature not following the rules... we still need a lot more input to come close on reaching a conclusion... until then, I will keep on breeding my hypo motleys...
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave. I was understanding that what you guys were saying that a hypo motly x normal will equal 25% hypo, 25% motley, and 50% normal. But your saying no normals are expected? Then what would a hypo mot x hypo mot be? 25% super mots, 25% super hypos, 50% hypo mots? Dave have you bred hypo mots? If so what were the results. Thanks

Can you tell me what is expected to be produced from a hypo mot x hypo arabesque compared to let's say hypo jungle x hypo arebesque..... I plan to do both breedings this season with virgin females. I will post my results..

First off, Jungle is a variable expression trait and some are not as obvious as others. for this discussion let's say all jungles are obvious and the odds gods are kind and fair

As always break it down to the individual trait....

Hypo/Mot x Hypo/Arab (assuming it's not a Super Hypo Arab)

Hypo/Mot x Hypo = 1/4 Hypo/Mot, 1/4 Super Hypo, 1/4 Hypo, 1/4 Mot
but you can't always tell the Super HYpo's from the Hypos so..
1/4 Hypo Mot, 1/2 Hypo pos super and 1/4 Mot

Note, I kept Hypo and Mot in the same equation since they are on the same gene pair.

Normal x Arab = 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Normal

1/8 Hypo Mot Arab
1/4 Hypo (pos super) Arab
1/8 Mot Arab
1/8 Hypo Mot
1/4 Hypo (pos super)
1/8 Mot

Hypo Jungle x Hypo Arab

Hypo x Hypo = 1/4 Super Hypo, 1/2 Hypo, 1/4 normal (again, can't always tell the Supers so..)
3/4 Hypo pos super , 1/4 normal

Jungle x normal = 1/2 Jungle, 1/2 Normal

normal x Arab = 1/2 Arab, 1/2 normal

3/16 Hypo Jungle Arab
3/16 Hypo Jungle
3/16 Hypo Arab
3/16 Hypo
1/16 Jungle Arab
1/16 Jungle
1/16 Arab
1/16 normal

>>Can you tell me what is expected to be produced from a hypo mot x hypo arabesque compared to let's say hypo jungle x hypo arebesque..... I plan to do both breedings this season with virgin females. I will post my results..
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I have not bred any hypo/mots yet. Have them just not old enough yet.

I have followed many threads and discussions on the subject and the consensus as I understand it is that Hypo and Motley are two different mutations of the same gene. If that is correct, in that gene pair, there could be 9 total variations (including left/right)

The first gene from Parent 1 (P1), the second from Parent 2 (P2)

nn - normal (normal from P1 and P2)
Hn - Hypo (Hypo from P1, normal from P2)
nH - Hypo (normal from P1, Hypo from P2)
Mn - Motley (Motley from P1, normal from P2)
nM - Motley (normal from P1, Motley from P2)
HM - Hypo Motley (Hypo from P1, Motley from P2)
MH - Hypo Motley (Motley from P1, Hypo from P2)
MM - Super Motley (Motley from P1 and P2)
HH - Super Hypo (Hypo from P1 and P2)

In both Hypo Motley phenotypes, there is no normal gene in that pair to pass on so Hypo/Mot x Hypo Mot could not result in any normal looking babies. The outcome should be as you said 1/2 Super Motley, 1/4 Super Hypo, 1/2 Hypo Motley.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

We bred our Ghost het Moonglow male to our Albino Motley female this year and produced only 40% motleys from the liter. We did hit Sunglow Motleys het Anery so the hypo gene from the father and the motley gene from the mother paired. From what we've heard, breeding out a hypo motley has a higher ratio of splitting the 2 genes into motleys and hypos, so our intent is to breed the Sunglow Motley back with our Moonglow and hope we hit in 2012. We'll be listing our female Sunglow Motley het Anery next week.

-Chuck

thanks for the message and congrats on your sunglow motleys!!!! especially with them being het anery!!!! from the pictures vie seen online,they always turn out amazing!!!!!

with everything ive been told, im hoping to find a breedable female hypo 100% dh snow to pair up with a male dh snow motley... since ive been told the motley has to be on the opposite side from the hypo, it would seem this pairing would set anyone up for the motley moonglow.... although thats going off of what i already own and what vie been told through these forums and the educated guesses of everyone.... just sucks that the hypo dh snow is a needle in a haystack of a find..... grrrrrrrrrr ... any suggestions?anyone??? lol

keep up the great work with your boas!!!!!