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So my Curiousity lead me to pair a "Jelly" Brooksi X Het Amelanistic GoinixEastern. This pairing resulted in two Amelanistics, 3 "Jelly" Females and 5 Hets (for either Amel or PB)...

These are VERY DARK PURPLE

No male "Jellies" for contrast... wont repeat this pairing... but i may keep at least one of these females to pair back to an Amel Goini x Eastern... result would be all amels and "Jellies" so i should be able to produce a male eventually!?

~ZF

Where did the amel come from in the goini x eastern?

Are you saying the amel trait in the eastern/nigra is allelic with the PB?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Female (Het Amel Goini x Eastern) is from Scott Knotts... Original pairing was an Amelanistic Eastern x Goini Female.

Amel T- Gene comes from the Eastern... It wouldn't surprise me if all Amelanistic T- kingsnakes genes are allelic... Especially when you consider that Cali king Amel T- and Cornsnake Amel T- are Allellic.

So yes the Amel T- in Easterns is Allelic with "Peanut Butter"

I thought the amel Easterns were T-Positive?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

There are lavender (T-pos.) AND T-neg. amel Easterns. Even though some might have intergrade lineage with nigra.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

So the founding t pos eastern is thought to be an intergrade with nigra?

>>So the founding t pos eastern is thought to be an intergrade with nigra?

I am asking myself the same thing as I have never seen an amel Nigra........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

No, not necessarily. There have been a few 100% genuine Easterns of both types found over the years from known locale's, as well as Eastern x amel nigra intergrades too. Which one's are which out there after being back-crossed to more Eastern blood is anyones guess though.

This has had many people scratching their heads for many years now..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You saying Eastern x amel nigra intergrades suggests there are amel nigras out there. Have you seen one? I'd love to.

.....some of the amel's found were getula x nigra intergrades, not that there were any known amel nigra found..LOL!

Got typing a bit too fast there..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Care to elaborate? Most of the Amel Chains in the hobby started as intergrades but have been outbred. Never heard of a single instance of a Amel x Amel not proving out...

I never said an amel x amel wouldn't prove out??..of course they would.

Anyway, Will Still has a perfect "lavender"(lilac colored) Eastern chain phenotype pictured in Hubbs' book. The pattern "looks" totally convincing of L.g.getula, and looks as genuine as any Eastern on the entire planet, but I sure as heck ain't goin to court to testify there "can't" be, or isn't something else in the mix either from somewhere else. If I didn't capture it myself, I cannot prove it.

Amel Scarlet kings have been captured from here and there for many years and are in collections too, but you NEVER see any of those available either...ever!.

I saw a guy's genuine amel Scarlet king back in 1996 that he flipped upside down with a rake as he was doing yardwork, and was even thinking about buying some hets at the time, but I went there focused on too many other projects to dump a ton of money on hets that might have a couple eggs, and go on for years. I wish I would have now though..LOL!

If you saw this lavender I am talking about, you would definitely say it looks to be 100% Eastern king. But that in itself doesn't mean it "has" to be.

Like I said earlier too, there are a lot of things out there the mainstream doesn't even know exists. It is only logical to me.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well I have my own reasons for not patronzing Mr Hubbs, havent seen the book or the pic. I'm sure if Will has it its not there to look pretty, it will be bred. I'm sure there are plenty of 1 of a kind stuff out there, if I cant get it what do I care about it?? Doug what I meant about the amel x amel was that with both ratsnakes and cal kings albinos were bred only to produce all normals FYI. I guess so people cant tell the difference with some forms. And about SKs, the reason you havent seen any cb Amels avail is because that takes 2 generations....and most of the NA milksnake guys dont live in FL where you would almost have to live to get to F2 with SKs. I have never seen any F2 SKs available, I have seen plenty of people selling WC as CB though.

Yes, I totally understand the incompatability issue about some different strains. Same with several hypo forms too in the hobby. At least three different kinds in corns anyway.

In any case though, the one dude had het amel SK's right there on his table along with the amel parent that produced them back in 1996 in Orlando, so even 9 or 10 years ago there "could" have been some amel SK's produced from those hets, and most DEFINITELY by now you would think, even if some of the people lived in Alaska..LOL! The dude that found the amel was from Florida somewhere.

The problem is that alot of people don't know how to take care of tiny Scarlet king babies anyway, and they let them die if they don't want to eat voluntarily on their own. Coupled with the fact that they have very tiny clutches too of course doesn't help any either.

I know of at least two other amel Sk's too, and one died in an over-heating problem of somekind in a rack system someone had.

I only know of ONE amel Scarlet king in existence, but possibly two.

Anyway, there must have been some pretty high death tolls for there not to be ANY seen by now, and I'm sure there was.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

As you well know there is a high death toll with most wc morphs. There have been alb and anery red milks, anery and dbl het ghost coastal plains milks, plenty of albino easterns before Joe's, a hypo eastern a few years ago, even my anery line hasnt taken off yet. Getting from a wc morph to a cb F2 morph is usually 6 eventful years at best! Even if you buy a cb baby scarlet its wayyyy easier to work with it if you live in FL, which was my point. Voluntary eating helps if you have options. And Gerry isnt around to be the local SK nut that is needed for such success. I think Chris got Tony's hypo SK, lets hope he has better luck with it! He does live in FL....

Yeah, Chris has that insanely gorgeous hypo with the wide yellow bands..man!, that thing is freakin killer!

I wish Chris had some of these amel Scarlet's from past years, he would have produced some for the hobby to enjoy by now.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You are correct. I kinda figured they came from Scott. I have been following his stuff for many years. His T-neg easterns are calif x eastern.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Scott's a Pretty Str8 forward guy so to My Knowledge The Amel used in this project was not a Cali Cross.

Well i never heard of true T negative Easterns being reproduced in numbers. if they had they would have been more than the T positive easterns which were going for $2000. each when they foirts beame avliable. And even then they were forun in nigra range so they were not true getula. I paid a lot of attention to the any getula amels that came out and would have ben on top of it.

I used to go to the Tampa show and the locale Florida vendors there had many eatsern x Calif amels on their tables. but they were all hybrids that were at various stages of percentage depending on how many times they were bred back to eastern getula.

I never that Scott tried to deceive anyone. I just think he didn't know.
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www.Bluerosy.com