Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The Sterling litter is 2 months old today. Growing like crazy. Doing everything little boas are supposed to do. Here are a few quick pics.

Female:

A few Males:

Thanks for looking.

Those are sooo amazing looking!

What an interesting breeding project you have on your hands with
those beauties.

Let me know the next time you go to Vegas. I'll buy your drinks
if you let me sit next to you at the table. Maybe some of your
luck will rub off.

I never gamble, because I hate to lose, and I quit drinking in 1990, but if I step in a pile of good stuff, I'll let you know where it was so you can step in it too. : )

those animals are just so killer!

Those are awesome, very unique looking.
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Richard Ceniceros

Those babies are looking great Ken, but I was wondering something... Can I have that name back? LOL I could really use it.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

But Jeff, it's such a great name. : )

It is. It's yours! I just have not come up with one better yet...
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

They look absolutely amazing brother. Glad to see that you are trying to go in the orange tail patternless direction too. We think they will be unreal. We should talk back and forth about this project to try and and help each if at all possible.
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Asnakesview they might look something like this. Andrew

08' Patternless Super Aztec

Picture taken by me at my house. These are the ONLY two siblings in existence.

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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

>>Picture taken by me at my house. These are the ONLY two siblings in existence.
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>>Ty Hege
>>Rat Race Solutions
>>www.ratracesolutions.com
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WOW Ty those are amazing animals for sure. We always appreciate your info on this Project. Do you have an Updated Pic of the reverse Stripe? WOW, Amazing, Unreal, just a few Adjectives that came to mind... Matt and Zach
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OH MY!!!!! Those are turning out so beautiful! They look so perfect and healthy what a great morph to have by accident. I'm sure you still feel like a kid in the candy store with those around in your snake room. Congrats again also quick question do those little patternless critters feel like super tiger retics?? They look smooth as velvet!!!

JAKE

wow

Beautiful and breath taking boa's. A question if I may, what has led you to believe that the Sterling boa's are different from the Magee brother's Patternless boa's that have been around for many years..? IMO they look exactly the same(from the photos I've seen) but being I haven't seen any in person I could be wrong. Andrew

I think they're different because I have no reason to believe that the parents are even remotely related to the Magee animals, and in the absence of seeing anymore patternless produced by Magee animals, I don't know that theirs is a viable line.

I don't say that to create any controversy. It's just that genes are unproven until they're proven. If my line proves out, so be it. Same with the other. Are they compatible? After one or both lines proves out, we'll have to find out. Until then, my spontaneous patternless babies are an independent unproven line; just like theirs.

Even though your Sterling boa's look exactly like the Magee brothers Patternless boa's. Seriously what's the chances of two boa's who are identical in appearance being genetically different, not much. Another thing is you use the word spontaneous birth regarding the Sterling boa's. Had there never been any Patternless boa's produced that looked exactly like your's I might agree with you but since there has been(several litter's), odd's are that nothing spontaneous occurred. Matter a fact they were on the way to working out the genetic's until bad luck fell upon them. Were you aware of the Magee brother's Patternless boa's(seen photo's) before you made your's public..? Also what makes you think the Magee brother's Patternless boa's aren't viable..? An example is the Scoria boa and how many of those have been produced to date(about the same amount as the Magee brother's Patternless boa's), but those who have them say their completely viable. I'm sorry if you take my statement's as negative but had you fully worked out the whole genetic puzzle before you made them public, question's like mine would never occur. Andrew

Andrew, perhaps you misunderstood my earlier post. Spontaneous doesn't mean "original," it means "unplanned." I was in no way planning to produce patternless boas since I had no way of knowing or even suspecting that the parents carried any gene for any morph. I was hoping for decent looking pastels and maybe some tail stripes. Never claimed to be 1st. This was a spontaneous event in my collection. Serendipity, if you will.

Also, I stand by me earlier comment. Until any line of patternless is proven to be a heritable trait, they all remain unproven (even listed my line 1st when stating that). In the absence of contradicting evidence, which concretely ties mine to the Magee's or anyone else's, I can only treat them as a stand alone project.

Finally, you write like someone with a vested interest in the Magee animals. You seem anxious to tie mine to theirs and to somehow minimize mine. If the Magee line is viable, it is also valuable. Same with mine. If they're compatible, they're each a little less valuable (because of market share dilution). No one will be able to know until and unless we prove out both groups and someone tries to cross them. That's not a criticism of anyone or their animals. It's not a failure to give anyone credit. It's just a practical fact.

For the record, I wish you and anyone else working a patternless project nothing but the best. No animosity here. Obviously, I hope mine proves out and that it's a distinct line. I imagine others in my position would feel the same.

I give you my word I have no vested interest in the Magee brother's Patternless boa and have never even spoke with the gentlemen. I can also guarantee the Patternless Super Aztec is no way related to what you and the Magee brother's have produced. You see I'm really, really, really stupid and if it walk's like a duck, quack's like a duck and look's like a duck, my dollar is it's a duck. A photo of the original Patternless Boa from the Magee brother's as a baby and as an adult. Andrew

taken by me in my house on my pool table when the animal was only a few months old. The other picture is Brendan's.
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

Four people have produced a true "Patternless" Boa.

- One of the Magee brothers had a litter that had four or five Patternless babies in the litter around 6 or 7 years ago. I do not know the total number of offspring or if that was divulged or not. My understanding is one lone female remains. If she has been bred that has not been made public.

- Dustin Davis, from Oklahoma, had one in a litter of around 25 about four years ago.

- Last year "Atomic Animals" from Europe bred a pair of what are called "longicauda" and produced several patternless babies among a bunch of really wacky babies. Obviously those are too young to reproduce.

- This year Ken of Maizeysdad fame produced the "Sterling Boas".

- Plus a number of years ago a true patternless was imported but never reproduced any offspring.

To date nobody has produced a true "Patternless" Boa deliberately. Nobody knows if any of them are genetically reproducible or if they are not. There is no reason to assume that if any one of those lines are reproducible that they are exactly identical genetically any more than it was a correct assumption to assume that the original imported Sharp Albino was the same as the Kahl line Albinos. Presumptions can be made, but nothing is certain until proven.

Whenever anyone with a patternless line of Boas is able to prove that line genetic, that will be a good thing for all Boa keepers. The Sterling Boa project is a very exiting new potential Boa phenomena I look forward to see developing in the years to come. I look forward to somebody making lots more patternless Boas someday and I will be in line to get some when that happens.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

There were these 4 'patternless' and 5 'normal' offspring along with 7 slugs in Brendan Magee's litter in 2005. Last I heard the one lone 'patternless' was still living as well as the mother which was of unknown origin and believed to be a bcixbcc mix of some type. I have seen lately some stating that it was peruvian but that is NOT known. I also do not know for sure if the mother has had any new litters but the father passed soon after the birth of that infamous litter as did the other 3 'patternless' and all of the siblings EXCEPT the two that I obtained in the interim. Those siblings are pictured in my comment above. Here is the ONLY pic ever posted to my knowledge and was taken by Brendan.

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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

That pic is helpful. The two tails that are visible are quite different than the Sterling tails. The Sterling's tails are distinctly dark on the top and white on the bottom, with an even, sharp line demarcating the transition.

>>That pic is helpful. The two tails that are visible are quite different than the Sterling tails. The Sterling's tails are distinctly dark on the top and white on the bottom, with an even, sharp line demarcating the transition.

I would almost bet our whole collection that the Sterling line patternless and the Magee Patternless Harlequins are going to be absolutely related and an identical morph that is one and the same. Only time will tell. Hopefully early 2012 we will see both hypo patternless and patternless alike. We are with this project to the end I know that. If one of the three males proves out with any of the eight females we own, we will be more than happy.

Another thing, I think the birth pic just shows how much more alike they look rather than different. IMO We are all entitled to our opinion though are we not. I just thank that there are down to earth people in this hobby that can talk about like projects without feeling like they are the competition. IMO projects like this are special for this industry. Why not help one another out during the process of proving them out. I think the pos hets have a special look to them but only time will tell. We have a couple that I feel are going to prove out but that is purely speculation. Lots of great stuff on here guys. Keep it coming.

ALso big congrats Ken. We are happy that you popped these things out. I love how even in Brendan's litter it was a perfect quarter litter of patternless as well. Do the masses feel it will prove out recessive?
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Hoping good things for everyone with all their projects. Not looking for conflict or controversy.

My earlier comments are more scientific than commercial. My wife, the career microbiologist/genetic research scientist, confirmed that just because phenotypes look the same, doesn't mean they involve the same mutation. For example, there are hundreds of different genetic causes for human deafness. They manifest as exactly the same, but the causes are unrelated. Same thing with muscular dystrophy. Same physical effect; unrelated causes.

As Jeff Ronne said to me, "It's nice to have a geneticist on staff."

My point? There's no point in speculating whether lines are related or not based on visible similarity, because only proven breeding will determine it. To argue about compatibility when no one has yet deliberately produced a patternless boa (excluding super mots, etc.) is at best, premature.

When we both prove out our individual animals, we definitely need to see if they're compatible. Looking forward to it. If we both succeed, everybody wins! Best wishes to you.

Ken

>>When we both prove out our individual animals, we definitely need to see if they're compatible. Looking forward to it. If we both succeed, everybody wins! Best wishes to you.
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>>Ken

Couldn't have said it better Ken. We feel exactly the same way and wish you just as much success in proving out this line as we are hoping that we do. GOOD LUCK!!!!
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I noticed you didn't mention the Patternless Super Aztec as being a true Patternless boa. I must have bad eye sight because I don't see any more pattern on the Patternless Super Aztec than either the Magee brother's Patternless boa or the Sterling boa. Also can we please see photo's of these different Patternless boa's you describe(besides the Magee or Sterling which have already been posted))so the huddled masses can see the differences for themselves and come to their own conclusion. Any and all help greatly appreciated. Andrew

PS A photo of the surviving Patternless Super Aztec as a baby.

If I'm not mistaken from the pictures I've seen, the super motley is also a patternless, black snake. Not sure if that counts here, though.
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Matt Ciupak

Not all Super Aztecs are patternless. I also didn't mention Super Motleys. Those are two known and I'm sure you would agree different mutations from the Sterling Boas.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Jeff of course your right and agree there're no genetic similarities between Patternless Super Aztec's and the Sterling. I think what we have called the Patternless Super Aztec is a different genetic beast from the Super Aztec but only time and further breeding will determine if this is true. In hind sight wished we had called them Sunburst Patternless when we named them as we felt it was different from the Super Aztec. Oh well, live and learn. As alway's appreciate your level headed and thoughtful responses, so take care and wish you loads of success throughout the season. Andrew

>>- Dustin Davis, from Oklahoma, had one in a litter of around 25 about four years ago.

Yeah Brendan was telling us that another guy produced one patternless a little after his but couldn't remember his name. Thanks for that info brother. Not sure if that animal survived but it would be interesting to see how it has developed.

So, as of right now, there have been 3 litters of Patternless animals produced from this line it seems. Brendan had told me that the one that Dustin produced looked identical to his. Funny his was only one out of 25 while the other two litters came out as a recessive trait. All we can do is hope.
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You wrote, "So, as of right now, there have been 3 litters of Patternless animals produced from this line it seems."

Sometimes I just have no clue how people come to the conclusions that they do. None, zero, nadda of the four different captive born litters in which at least one true patternless Boa was born are related. None. They are NOT from the same line. And until proven to be such, there is no scientific reason to believe that they are "the same".

There are three different incompatible lines of Anerythristics in Boa Constrictors. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

There are two different known incompatible lines of Albinos in Boa Constrictors. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

There are two or three different lines of T-Positives in Central American Boas and at least three in Colombian Boas. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

We also know there have been four instances of true "patternless" Boas that have been born in four unrelated breedings and "those are all the same"? I say "B" as in "B", "S" as in "S". We don't know until it is proven such. And in my mind, THAT especially at this point, is utterly irrelevant as NONE have even been reproduced or even proven genetic.

I have beaten this horse too long. He has been dead for two days.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Of course that was the reason for the important last words "IT SEEMS".

Of course all of this is assumption. I am referring to Brendan's, Dustins', and Ken's that all produced animals that "APPEAR" to be the same.

THAT WAS ALL I WAS SAYING.
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Also just wanted to include as well that the Magee Patternless litter was produced in 2005.
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