Reptile & Amphibian Forums

New info!!!

Anyone interested please read Dyrkacz's paper on eastern milks in a disturbed environment. Apparently baby eastern milks hatch in the fall, then spend a few months without eating before going into hibernation. I suspect when they emerge in the spring they probably head for the vernal pools like baby garters and eat the breeding amphibs.

The babies still grow slightly during the fall from energy from the yolk, just like adult snakes do during starvation (read McCue's paper on snake metabolism, quite interesting). I think that my friends' milk snakes died because he fed them right after they shed in the fall, then they tried to hibernate and the food just rotted in their stomachs.

In any case this looks like it will be far more difficult than I originally thought. I am writing a paper on my findings but I am not a professional herpetologist (yet) so where can I publish it? Other than here, of course .

The eggs are doing great, nice and white and round with only a few yellow blemishes, are those bad? One is bent and split, but the membrane is still intact and I can't see any fluids, so hopefully it'll be okay. Probably not though, egg mortality is high (survival = less than 80% according to Dyrkacz).

Will have pix soon ...

crocacutus

Let's see if we can help you out. I've never had any real issue getting newborn L.t.triangulum to eat. The vast majority eat after their initial shed and they do so sans scenting. There are three keys to getting them started. First, make certain that you start them in a deli cup so that they are in proximity to their food. Second, let them get hungry, be patient. Third, offer every variety of pink (there are many options), newborns will respond differently.
Your task is to make certain that the right pink type is offered when the snake is hungry. The vast majority will start feeding with this pattern and no cool down is needed.

Here's what you do as an alternative. You acquire a coffee grinder and a plastic syringe/soft plastic catheter combo from a vet or perhaps a feed store. You grind up slightly thawed pinks mixing in a little water, creating a mouse slurpy. Squeeze the mixture through the syringe before attaching the plastic catheter. You can freeze the extra and thaw it later.
Avoiding the glottis by running the catheter along the roof of the snakes mouth or to the side of the mouth, gently squeeze a little into the back of the snakes throat. Removing the catheter slowly, let the snake "taste" a drop in its mouth as you withdraw it (important). This method will almost invariably start the hatchlings feeding within three or so tubings. You are conditioning the newborns to eat mice.

Note: This isn't a pink pump let's blow a newborn into the next county method, this is a foolproof gentle feeding that doesn't stress the babies at all when done correctly. Starvation is stressful, which is why you need to know when to abandon the standard feeding attempts and move to the alternative choice.
I don't cool hatchlings, I've never had the need. Cooling is obviously an option. Scenting is usually not effective with triangulum, garter and dekay are the best options. Generically, the best snake scent is rough green, particularly with temporalis.

Thanks!

I'm sure they can eat in the fall, just I've had WC babies that wouldn't eat a thing so I had to let them go. I want to try and raise these to a larger size at least before I give most of them away.

I have a l.g. getula that eats adult mice, so I have been cutting off the tails and saving them. I can easily capture garters and redbelly snakes where I live for scenting.

One of the milks that my friend had actually died after trying to swallow a pinky mouse! So I'm sort of anxious about feeding as you can probably tell.

I personally think that e. milk eggs in the northern part of their range take longer than usual to incubate so they can go into hibernation soon after they hatch. I was shocked to learn that any baby colubrid snake could go a month without eating just after hatching.

crocacutus

Yes, many hatchlings are so stubborn they don't eat for FAR longer than just one month, no matter what scenting tricks you use. I have had some different types of getula not feed voluntarily for well over two months, close to three actually with just a few raw egg shakes in the latter portion of this period to simply help keep them alive until the little feeding "switch" is tripped by something. These snakes finally get it in their tiny heads that they are supposed to open their mouth and actually EAT something..LOL!

These same snakes that starved themselves in the beginning for months are now some of the most voracious feeders I own, and come bolting up to the top of the enclosure to snatch anything they see......me included!..LOL!

One of these was a very tiny Outer Banks king(L.g. sticticeps) that was a tiny 9 gram runt. The male is now an absolute MONSTER for his age!

I know the discussion is about Eastern triangulum, but it can easily be related to many other problem feeders in the getula or triangulum complex just the same.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"Note: This isn't a pink pump let's blow a newborn into the next county method"

HAHAHAA!!, that was too funny!, and I can definitely relate to all that you said in your post. The small amount of pinkie slurry remaining in the mouth would be detected by the hatchlings Jacobson's organ, and very likely raise a flag to the hatchling's brain as to the scent being a very acceptable food item.

Good post!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

A small amount left in the mouth can also go the other way and lead it to regurge. Not much worse than regurged pinkie paste...

Jeff, it's just a pause with whats left on the catheter end, it amounts to a drop. I've never had an issue.

Thanks, Doug.

Just wanted to keep his hatchlings locale specific, LOL.

Great Post here!

In my limited experience I have not had a hard time getting hatchlings to eat, right through the winters without cooling, but I'd love some advice keeping the subadults/adults eating. Mine love to go off food for months at a time only to start back up eating like champs. Very frustrating at times, but from what I've read this is fairly common with NA triangulum.

My favorite triangulum. She has refused a meal only once (when in the blue and I wanted to see if she would eat.)

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Joe

Joe, thats just the nature of the beast with Easterns. They will feed like gangbusters and double their size in 2 months only to go off feed and shrink back to half that size. While its easy to understand how they are wired for a "boom or bust" feeding regimen given their latitude, not sure if anyone has identified exactly what sets their limits. I'd often thought about bad feeders, because we take for granted our frozen stores because they come from a commercial supply or whatever. We dont taste them, we dont know exactly how each hits the belly. Ever sit down with a bag of Cherries munching away til you get a bad one? It throws you off, makes you put the bag down etc. There are so many subtle variables that could affect our captives, so many it really deserves its own thread. Cant tell you how many times I have lost prized specimens for NO APPARANT REASON....its the most maddening part of the hobby, wayyyyy worse than non feeding babies. I digress.
I'm sure alot of the changes have to do with needing different habitats at different times of the year. Despite great early morning temps I've been skunked in my last few times out....my guess its the overall temp, average daily that moderates their behavior more than we can understand in a cage. Interesting topic, though I would encourage newbies...please dont PUBLISH or pretend to. Anecdotal evidence is just that.

Thanks, Joe.

This issue (going off food) is most often related to the particulars of your climatic situation. I disagree slightly with Jeff in that I don't think it is a triangulum issue related to where the animals originate but rather where they are kept.
I've never had much of an issue at all with L.t.triangulum in terms of going off feed. Having said that, one of the other people I most respect in terms of triangulum knowledge has had all sorts of issues with his animals relating to this issue. His animals have a very short "up time" and must be cooled for most of the year as a result. He never experienced this issue when he lived in the northeast and his climatic theory as it relates to his present location is very scientific in nature and credible.

I do believe there are some tricks you might try. Do you feed live or frozen thawed?

f/t for the most part, but I have tried live at times. I sent an email so as not to hijack the op's thread. Thanks.
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Joe

Nice to see you back old boy! Your advice to me many years ago (10 or 12?) has served me well and helped more than few forum kids be successful.
We'll talk again....Jeff
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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

Hi Jeff, thanks for the welcome and kind words.

I see you've spent some time in Big Sky land, nice trip.

Good to see you popping up on here... Hope all is well!

-Cole

L. t. multistrata

Most northern-latitude Colubrids hatch in the fall, then enter brumation without having fed, so this is not unique to Lampropeltis triangulum from the North. As for heading to vernal pools in the spring to feed on breeding amphibians... maybe... A neonate triangulum is going to have a hell of a time eating an adult Anaxyrus [Bufo] americanus, Hyla versicolor, or Lithobates [Rana] sylvatica, for example. Sure, there are plenty of smaller species, too, but I suspect that most populations in the Northeast are rodent nest raiders. Peromyscus and Microtus are some of the most common food items recorded for L. t. triangulum.

-Cole

np

There are several places you can publish your findings. Scientific journals (Journal of Herpetology, Herp. Review, Herpetologica, Copeia, etc.) are the usual choice for true scientific work. Semi-technical papers have a number of outlets, including one of my favorites - the journal of the International Reptile Conservation Foundation - Reptiles and Amphibians: Conservation and Natural History.

-Cole

Thanks for the advice!

It seems to me that if hatchling eastern milk snakes normally go into hibernation before their first meal, they might be more likely to eat pinkies if I replicate that. This may be why my friends' snakes died, because I don't think he tried hibernating them but fed them right after the first shed. Perhaps their metabolisms shut down too early, while the food was still in their gut ...

crocacutus

Since I don't know anything about what your friend specifically did in regards to the feeding and temps it was subject to afterwards, it is dificult to say. But I certainly WILL say that if your friend started cooling a tiny hatchling down with ANYTHING whatsoever in it's digestive tract, that will easily kill it just as sure as the sun rises. Everyone should always give a snake approx. two weeks to TOTALLY empty out their gut content beforehand.

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>It seems to me that if hatchling eastern milk snakes normally go into hibernation before their first meal, they might be more likely to eat pinkies if I replicate that.

That's a reasonable theory. Note it doesn't exclude other practices that would also be successful.

>>This may be why my friends' snakes died, because I don't think he tried hibernating them but fed them right after the first shed.

No, that wouldn't kill a snake. As you've seen in other posts here, while some people cool their hatchlings, it's common practice to start feeding them right away.

>> Perhaps their metabolisms shut down too early, while the food was still in their gut ...

there, you're on to something, as d mong noted above. Common practice for people cooling their animals (incorporating a brumation period into their care) is to wait at least two weeks after the last feeding before starting to cool the animals. Cooling is then a gradual process.

BTW, even though "we" tend to think that two week period followed by gradual cooling allows animals to "clear their gut", I often noted stools deposited even months into the brumation period. Usually, it seemed, in a water bowl! So some animals, at least, are retaining some food in the digestive system. To anticipate the next question: No, i noted no ill effects from those animals that defecated long into the brumation period.