Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a severe case of WTF here... snake is alive, alert, still flicking tongue and crawling around as best as it can. It's a thayeri that hatched a few weeks ago. Hasn't eaten yet but was caged with two others that also haven't eaten (and they seem completely normal). Any ideas?

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Josh Loehr

It was twisted up in it's embryo stage I'm guessin, it then un twisted as it grew and it will probably be fine and in a few weeks you wont even be able to tell it was like that. thats my guess. JB

Looks like it has a sibling in it's stomach..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Looks like it has a sibling in it's stomach..........
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>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I was so freaked out that didn't even cross my mind...
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Josh Loehr

>>>>Looks like it has a sibling in it's stomach..........
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>>>>John Lassiter
>>>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>>>www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
>>
>>I was so freaked out that didn't even cross my mind...
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>>Josh Loehr

Been there before.........my belief is that weaker hatchlings in the wild could be meals for the stronger ones...... Survival of the fittest..... Sorry though.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

So does it have a sibling it ate in it's stomach? I guess you will have to see if it can digest it to find out.

>>So does it have a sibling it ate in it's stomach? I guess you will have to see if it can digest it to find out.

NO....he ate his own sibling.....
Josh can count to know.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

n/p
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Josh Loehr

Aww... that's too bad, but better than the little snake being deformed from some sort of odd birth defect. If it successfully digests this meal it will be off to a great start in life at least. A truly beautiful thayeri!

If it regurgitates the snake inside it(which is VERY likely), do NOT attempt to feed it again for at LEAST 7 to 10 days afterwards!

You must give the tiny delicate hatchlings gut time to rejuvinate it's gut acids, enzymes(amino acids), and bacterial flora, or it will cause it to regurge AGAIN!

Also, if it does regurge the snake, make sure it is a VERY tiny meal at first too.

This will help any possibility of a nasty snowball affect that can be very serious to the little guy.

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...........
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari, TBA)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

.....and even if he has the right count of egg shells for each snake in the tub, that would mean it ate a twin from one of the eggs.

Definitely a coiled up snake it forced down in there!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It has happened to me a couple times when I have been slow to separate. Always a slap forehead moment.

A way to prevent them cannibalizing each other would be to put each egg in a separate hatching container, if room permits, and if the eggs are not stuck together when the mother lays them.

I am surprised they would try to eat each other right out of the egg. I thought they wouldn't want to eat for about a week or so.

>>A way to prevent them cannibalizing each other would be to put each egg in a separate hatching container, if room permits, and if the eggs are not stuck together when the mother lays them.
>>
>>I am surprised they would try to eat each other right out of the egg. I thought they wouldn't want to eat for about a week or so.

Read again....
Josh had these three stubborn feeders housed together.....They are not right out of the egg, but some snakes will eat right out of the egg prior to their first shed........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Looks like it has a sibling in it's stomach..........

nicely done, John. it's hard sometimes to see the obvious. you did good. I suspect a number of us were puzzled at least for a while over that pic.

it's also a testament to the power of first impressions: i got the impression from the post that it had been that way since it hatched. OR at least that its siblings were accounted for, so nothing to point me in the right direction. I was carjacked once (how's THAT for a topic switch? But i'll bring it back to point) and the officer who ended up pursuing us and eventually saving me from gunpoint couldn't shake the first impression that he was chasing a drug deal in progress. Even after the baddies were taken away and there were half a dozen cruisers, a couple dogs and a helicopter! at the scene, and even though the thugs had done the same thing the previous three nights, he kept returning to me to ask, "are you sure that's what happened?" Not to be preachy but it's proof of the importance of making a good impression, as well as a reminder not to form them too quickly. Wait: let me shine my shoes and straighten my tie before i post this...

it's also a testament to the power of first impressions: i got the impression from the post that it had been that way since it hatched. OR at least that its siblings were accounted for, so nothing to point me in the right direction.
Yeah, same here! I thought it was some sort of exotic birth defect!

This is what I read.....LOL

------It's a thayeri that hatched a few weeks ago. Hasn't eaten yet but was caged with two others that also haven't eaten (and they seem completely normal). Any ideas?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I thought the owner had counted all the babies and they were all accounted for, not one inside the other as it turned out. This is a reminder to never assume they wont eat each other just because they are tiny babies.

>>I thought the owner had counted all the babies and they were all accounted for, not one inside the other as it turned out. This is a reminder to never assume they wont eat each other just because they are tiny babies.

I agree....but this was in the original post......That is the only reason I knew it had eaten a sibling.....plus the pictures confirmed it....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

If this snake hatched this way and has for sure never eaten, I am guessing it is a conjoined twin, but the other twin is inside the snake.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus_in_fetu
The poor little thing; it is a beauty except for this odd deformity.

That is what it is.

It will probablt regurge a half digested meal in a day or two. Then you will see what snake it ate.

Post pics when it does.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"POST PICS WHEN IT DOES"..............

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!! You're as bad and as morbid as I am........I was thinking the exact same thing but just didnt say it.....
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>I have a severe case of WTF here... snake is alive, alert, still flicking tongue and crawling around as best as it can. It's a thayeri that hatched a few weeks ago. Hasn't eaten yet but was caged with two others that also haven't eaten (and they seem completely normal). Any ideas?
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>>-----
>>Josh Loehr
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

That was rather obnoxious....Coming from someone who produces hybrid snakes that should be snake food.........LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I just went onto that website and almost fell outta my chair......Jesus Christmas I just dont know what to say......*slaps forehead*..........
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>I just went onto that website and almost fell outta my chair......Jesus Christmas I just dont know what to say......*slaps forehead*..........

sideshow freaks.

>>That was rather obnoxious....Coming from someone who produces hybrid snakes that should be snake food.........LOL
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Sorry this was just a hilarious thread. LOL!!
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

>>Sorry this was just a hilarious thread. LOL!!

Most folks don't think it's hilarious to lose a snake......Especially a pure thayeri that cannot be mass produced like Imperial Pueblancornduransinacals......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

How does this fit in with the living in colonies thing? ie kingsnakes only eat outsiders as food not family /colony members?

Clearly many do sucessfuly keep groups together but this begs the question of why would babies eat each other especially before first shed even if others have raised hatchling to adulhood without a problem together?

LOL!!!,..yeah, sort of blows that theory right out of the water doesn't it...LOL!

That is why I will never go testify in court that another king will NOT ever eat another relative, or any non-related individual either when housed together for whatever reason.

I know of other's that have had it happen before their first shed too. No matter how unlikely it might seem to be, it is always possible nonetheless.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It does not just have to be kingsnakes. Boas, ratsnakes , pits, hot all do it.

Doug and Bob are one some sort of quest using logic that goes against your own expereince..

You know that "ANY" snake kept together in conditions they can strike at anything that moves will illicit a feeeding response. Why don't you just put a mirror in as well and scent them all with mice. Then you will say, SEE they will eat each other.

Kingsnakes are in groups here in my facility and they never eat or kill each other. They are bonded and the bonding process does not start with babies comming out of the egg and striking at movements outside of the cage that eventually causes one to latch onto the other and the death struggle begins.

Jeez it is all common sense guys. You wouldn't put your hand in a cage after you have handled mice, would you?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Today I just had a baby thayeri that was still half in the egg eat a sibling. Couldn't figure out where the other one went until I pulled out the offenders second half of body from the egg with his umbilical cord still on belly. Wild. Mike

I have female brooks who eat their eggs as they are laying.

Weird stuff happens. Doesn't mean it is the norm.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"I have female brooks who eat their eggs as they are laying.

Weird stuff happens. Doesn't mean it is the norm."

I think I would tape her mouth shut during laying days, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Why don't you just put a mirror in as well and scent them all with mice. Then you will say, SEE they will eat each other.

Mine don't need a mirror; my male speckled will still try to eat himself after constricting a mouse...sometimes he gets confused and thinks his coils are the prey animal (I feed FT but he always constricts) He's still doing it despite fairly heavy feeding *sigh* crazy bugger.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Put two, just like that one together hmmm. I wonder what might happen?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

whats tater salad say, ya cant fix stupid! yep i'd agree especially after actually meeting some of the "brilliant" minds on this board.
ALL baby snakes have a feeding response that can/is triggered by movement! DUH!
use your head for something other than a hatrack.
i'd say common sense AINT so common anymore!
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>ALL baby snakes have a feeding response that can/is triggered by movement! DUH!
>>use your head for something other than a hatrack.

thank goodness adult snakes' feeding responses can't be triggered by movement.

well alot of kings feeding responses cant be triggered by anything because of crappy conditions and improper feeding regiments.
simple fact is with good conditions kings thrive and they certainly can/do become bonded pairs,trios,etc.
this "fear" of canibalization is sad.
common sense ISNT so common anymore
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

" this "fear" of canibalization is sad.
common sense ISNT so common anymore "

Thomas, you really need to put the bong down for a second and listen up.

You really are insulting the facts of science when you say comments such as the ones above. There is no rational thought to what you are saying. Common sense AND actual knowledge of kingsnakes and their care, habits, abilities, and characteristics, when all brought together, brings forth the COMMON SENSE that kings CAN and EAT each other, and other snakes. It's what they do. That is what they, by nature, are programmed for. Hence what? Oh...THEIR NAME, which is KINGSNAKES!!! HAHA!!!!!

When you talk about having a " fear " of snakes cannibalizing on each other, and relating it to not having common sense, you are creating scientific hypocrisy of the utmost extreme. In doing so, breeders who actually either do this for a living, or who are actually accomplished in their craft, and are responsible and have good names in the biz, have another good laugh at forums such as this and disregard it all even more. Because of that fact alone, you should be ashamed for making remarks about animals you claim to like and enjoy, but yet you blurt out statements that, in the act of putting two kings together and play Russian roulette, and then one of them gets eaten, what you are stating is that you don't care about the grim possibilities of such outcomes. That is not caring about the animal, that is you caring about you having this euphoria of " living on the edge! "...plain and simple.

In closing, you are a nice guy in real life, and we can agree simply to disagree. I am not cutting you down personally, but what I am doing is just stating the scientific obvious, that myself and every herper I know and talk to on a regular basis, believe about childish and irresponsible comments made about snakes that are predatory, but not taking into consideration their own well being in the long run.

The facts about this subject are as black and white, as the snake below.

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Genesis 1:1

im gonna address your post...

>Thomas, you really need to put the bong down for a second and listen up.

>>>yeah ok billy im listening up, and we will talk about "the bong" statement face to face.

>You really are insulting the facts of science when you say comments such as the ones above. There is no rational thought to what you are saying. Common sense AND actual knowledge of kingsnakes and their care, habits, abilities, and characteristics, when all brought together, brings forth the COMMON SENSE that kings CAN and EAT each other, and other snakes. It's what they do. That is what they, by nature, are programmed for. Hence what? Oh...THEIR NAME, which is KINGSNAKES!!! HAHA!!!!!

>>>wow insulting the facts of science?!?!? hang on a minute there billy and listen...
kingsnakes like ALL snakes do mate and reproduce, they can and are found in groups in the wild. its simply RETARDED to think you cannot house/bond/pair kings in groups together in captivity.

>When you talk about having a " fear " of snakes cannibalizing on each other, and relating it to not having common sense, you are creating scientific hypocrisy of the utmost extreme.

>>>hahahahahahahaha who needs to put the bong down there billy? i mean really hypocrite?!????wow!

>In doing so, breeders who actually either do this for a living, or who are actually accomplished in their craft, and are responsible and have good names in the biz, have another good laugh at forums such as this and disregard it all even more. Because of that fact alone, you should be ashamed for making remarks about animals you claim to like and enjoy, but yet you blurt out statements that, in the act of putting two kings together and play Russian roulette, and then one of them gets eaten, what you are stating is that you don't care about the grim possibilities of such outcomes. That is not caring about the animal, that is you caring about you having this euphoria of " living on the edge! "...plain and simple.

>>>hey billy i make my living with snakes. and your "living on the edge" theory is as RETARDED as folks thinking ya cant house kings together because they are canibals. hence you cant fix stupid.

>In closing, you are a nice guy in real life, and we can agree simply to disagree. I am not cutting you down personally, but what I am doing is just stating the scientific obvious, that myself and every herper I know and talk to on a regular basis, believe about childish and irresponsible comments made about snakes that are predatory, but not taking into consideration their own well being in the long run.

>>>yeah whatever billy lets see... put down the bong, im a hypocrite, im irresponsible and live on the edge but NO your not cutting me down personally, geez what a putz. next time your talking with your herper friends ask about ALL, TODO, EVERY SINGLE SNAKE BEING PREDATORY.
not taking into consideration their own well being in the long run ppppffffffffttttt! no i dont take anything but whats best for the snakes in consideration and bonding and pairing is whats done in nature so yeah i think its good in captivity as well.

>The facts about this subject are as black and white, as the snake below.

>>>yes they are you and others just need glasses.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I know Im kinda butting in here and I'll get egg on my face for it, but I can't ever recall flipping a board and finding 5 or 6 Florida Kings or Speckled Kings all huddled together? The only time I ever found 2 together was cause they were breeding or one was being eaten by another, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

wow bummer you should maybe get out and field herp some more.

,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, your response lacks anything concrete, as expected.

Thomas of course snakes are found in groups in the wilds. That is common sense. But what is also common sense is that they have the ability, as it is in them, to EAT other snakes. They do this actual thing!! ( Really? LOL! ) They do this in the wild, ALSO!! Who would have thought!??

Some may keep some kings together and nothing happens, some may keep kings together and one eats the other and they lie about it, or some may keep them together and the worst happens and they are man enough to admit that maybe it wasn't the best thing to do. I know examples of all three. Thing is, like I said, they are KINGS. Remember, in the WILD, they do this as well, as eating snakes is part of their natural inhibition.

People have the ability to physically put together any snakes in a cage. Thing is, sometimes it may not be the best thing, and it is playing Russian roulette. Ask any honest person who knows anything about kingsnakes.

My point is this: You made a childish, uneducated comment about fearing that kings eating each other being not laced with common sense. I responded. You have no real answer. NEXT!
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Genesis 1:1

NEXT! roflmfao!

>Remember, in the WILD, they do this as well, as eating snakes is part of their natural inhibition.

>>>remember, in the WILD, they dont eat their mates, how do i know this because if they did there would be no wild kings muchless large groups.

NEXT, ahahahahahahahaha

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

" remember, in the WILD, they dont eat their mates "

Actually, you have no way of knowing that. All you have is the fact that they have been found at times together. That's it. I personally feel that both sides of the coin happens in that scenario though, where some have eaten their mates maybe, and of course, it has not happened as well, just like in captivity both scenarios happen. Duh! Overall, Thomas, unless you know first hand a decent amount, if not ALL of the snakes in the wild's actual personal lives since the beginning of time, which no one has any way of knowing to begin with, that would be hard to answer with 100 % certainty.

Still, your point, or lack of, means nothing as well to the fact that in captivity, it has happened, from coming out of the egg, to some kings being put together to breed, etc.. It has happened Thomas. It's ok to admit that. Not all of the time of course, that is a given, but it has. No need to try to win this chidish argument to begin with. To say it does not is pure ignorance in regards to science. That is all I am trying to say.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah, like Thomas has joined in, got accepted, then slept, ate, and intermingled with large groups of wild getula all year round or some ridiculous crap!..HAHAHAHAA!!

If that isn't about the silliest bunch of nonesense I have EVER heard in my life!..HAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

He saw a couple kings at the most under a board somewhere and assumed all this on his own..LMAO!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

heres my point billy
can kings be housed together? YES
thats it
take care,
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"well alot of kings feeding responses cant be triggered by anything because of crappy conditions and improper feeding regiments.
simple fact is with good conditions kings thrive and they certainly can/do become bonded pairs,trios,etc.
this "fear" of canibalization is sad."

What's sad is to see someone who just bought a pair of Getula take the advice of some here and then find one big fat one! That's sad
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

advise? yeah ok where did i advise anyone jorge?
the plain fact is they(kings) can be housed together in captivity anyone who thinks they cant are WRONG.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

you may not have advised anyone but I have seen others advise newbies to do it. By throwing your hat in the same ring then it is like advice. There are a lot of people who read these posts and don't ever join in, and if they take some of the advice being put fourth hrere then they might find out the hard way. Can it be done? Yes! I did it for a long time untill one ate another. Then I said to myself, Self... if you don't want this to happen again, you probably should think about keeping the snakes apart in sparate cages. Even though it will take up more space you'll have to but more cages. Which I think is at the heart of this subject anyway. When collections get very large we tend to try and save space and money by having multiple snakes in one enclosier. Which is fine if you don't mind losing a snake here and there.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Him telling people they are "stupid" for thinking that it could ever happen ......IS recommending it!....no doubt about it! Especially to a "newbie" that didn't know anything at all about their nature. Just telling everyone flat-out to do it regardless is just plain irresponsible, and not very brilliant.

But hey, "can't fix stupid"

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>you may not have advised anyone but I have seen others advise newbies to do it. By throwing your hat in the same ring then it is like advice.

>>>NO its nothing like advise jorge. but since you asked my advise to people wanting to house their kings together is watch your snakes.watch your snakes. they will tell you everything they need/want from temp&humidity requirenments to hides,room,food,etc. just WATCH them especially during the bonding process. watch your snakes. feed them well and you will have no problems. should newborns be kept together?hmmm well being their instinct is to eat and grow as fast as they can i would def. say NO thus my comment on common sense being very uncommon. i start introductions at the 25-30inch range and by seasons end they are bonded and living together. i have bonded pairs that eat together in the same tub i simply throw handfuls of mice in they sort it work it out. do i advise folks to just put 2 kings together? NO... CAN kings live in captivity as bonded pairs together? ABSOLUTELY YES
do ya see the differance?
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>... watch your snakes.watch your snakes. they will tell you everything they need/want from temp&humidity requirenments to hides,room,food,etc.

Maybe people misunderstand what you're saying. What, and how do they tell us? Does the fact that naturalists have observed for centuries of stomach analysis that kings are particularly inclined to include snakes in their diets constitute something we should learn from watching snakes? How do we as keepers know if we've interpreted correctly what they're telling us? If the animals thrive? As we all know, they can thrive under a wide range of conditions. Other than concluding we know what they're telling us, how do we know? There's a big difference between believing we can learn many things from observing our animals, and concluding "they will tell you everything they need/want..."

>> just WATCH them especially during the bonding process. watch your snakes....I start introductions at the 25-30inch range and by seasons end they are bonded and living together. i have bonded pairs that eat together in the same tub i simply throw handfuls of mice in they sort it work it out.

So in this specific case, what behavior do you take as evidence that they are "bonded"? That they seek shelter under the same hide? That they don't eat each other? Can bonding occur across species? If you find a king and a racer under the same board, are they bonded? If you introduce some kings and corns at 25-30" and they don't immediately eat each other, do we assume they're bonded? How long, without eating each other? Is there a difference between cohabitating and bonding? Maybe that's at the root of the debate. It all sounds too much like individuals who hear God and believe they--sometimes they alone--know what the message means.

Honest questions, from a keeper who had an adult female chain king eat her "mate" after the onset of breeding activities. (they had NOT been bonded at 25-30", just introduced as adults.)

ok terry i will try to answer you...

>So in this specific case, what behavior do you take as evidence that they are "bonded"? That they seek shelter under the same hide? That they don't eat each other?

>>> they act/react as one, they understand the differance between a meal and a mate. could that behavior be controlled through food intake? absolutely yes. is that something thats controlled in a captive environment? absolutely yes

> Can bonding occur across species? If you find a king and a racer under the same board, are they bonded?

>>>no i beleive pheremones play a big role there.

>If you introduce some kings and corns at 25-30" and they don't immediately eat each other, do we assume they're bonded?

>>>again i beleive pheremones play a role in that, and my introductions occur over several months and watching my snakes.

> How long, without eating each other?

>>>no definitve answer there. feed them and watch them.

>Is there a difference between cohabitating and bonding?

>>>absolutely

>Maybe that's at the root of the debate. It all sounds too much like individuals who hear God and believe they--sometimes they alone--know what the message means.

>>>whatever terry, i just know snakes, i understand them. the fear that you cannot keep kings together is wrong plain and simple. your female ate the mate you picked out because she obviosly wanted food and being she had never even met another king yeah soups on!. so yeah if all you learned is dont keep kings together then rock on, personally i am not satisfied with conventional caresheet mentality of subsisting snakes in boxes. i actually care,apprecieate,admire my snakes and allow them to be snakes and poke fun all you want to they tell me what they want/need.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Being as I am a newbie with keeping king snakes, I think I will err on the side of caution and not put them together except for breeding, and then will watch carefully. It would break my heart to have one eat the other. The poster whose baby snake still part way out of the egg that ate one of its siblings, and the poster who's snake eats her own eggs; I will go with if it can happen it will happen! I don't know what one would do about the hatchlings eating each other while still hatching; separate hatching tubs for each egg?

" What's sad is to see someone who just bought a pair of Getula take the advice of some here and then find one big fat one! That's sad. "

EXACTLY!
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Genesis 1:1

Didn't mean for ugly. Thought it was a relevant question. I believed I made it clear that I have seen on here that people have done fine keeping Kings together.It's just that when you see an instance like what was posted you HAVE to look at it and mull it around don't you? As you try to accept what folks like FR have said through years of observations (respected)

I believe folks that say they successfully keep their kings together. Bottom line. Believe you are telling the truth.

Not attacking anyone and I have seen this is taken personal too often in the past.

Truth can stand being challenged. Theories are put forth and duplicated by others to confirm their findings. It's how it's done.

I have noticed on here even keepers that strongly advocate keeping kings together seem to hedge their bets.

Isn't the basic premise "If they ate each other in the wild there wouldn't be any Kings" There are Kings, so they must not.

No one here seems to have tested it to the point of a large terrarium housing generations of Kings where eggs are laid and males not removed and babies hatch without being eaten in the egg or as hatchlings. Viewing large and small males and females through out the enclosure/room? That would carry serious weight!

YOUR DUMB TO NOT "KNOW" YOU CAN KEEP KINGS TOGETHER seems to be what I hear.

"I don't put them together till they are so many inches..."

"I remove the males during egglaying...."

" I remove females to seperate containers so they won't eat another females eggs"

"I acclimate them during hibernation....(even though they don't need it?)"

"Babies will strike at anything that moves..." How is that different than what happens in a rotten log when a skink goes by?

Then a guy with awesome snakes he raised carefully for years posts he does't want to take a chance and he gets blasted for hedging his bets and being "safe" and is consider a loser as a keeper. Am I the only one who sees how weird that seems?

This is not an attack but relevant place to think these things through together. Please don't take it personal.

No Bluerosy and Thomas I'm not trying to be a jerk to you. I respect your experiences. You've raise/bred far more snakes than I ever will.

"No Bluerosy and Thomas I'm not trying to be a jerk to you. I respect your experiences. You've raise/bred far more snakes than I ever will."

Bob it only takes one time where you lose a coveted snake to it's mate to say maybe that wasn't a good Idea. Rainer can get away with it because he has thousands of snakes, if one got eaten, heck he might not even notice it's missing.

I'm not trying to be a jerk either but I am coming from a different place and most people who read these posts are also coming from a different place. We don't want to risk the loss of a precious snake. It's not FEAR OF CANIBALISM. It's not taking risks with the animals we love.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah, I agree 100% with both you and Bob. The main "tone" being posted is that if anyone doesn't get it, is therefore "STUPID" for not housing them altogether is pure BUNK!, even though a few people do it without problems "most" of the time...LOL!

I don't "NEED" to do it, so I "CHOOSE"(key word here..LOL!) NOT to do it!, and for MANY different reasons too.....simple as that!

"Stupidity" has NOTHING to do with it AT ALL if one houses kings seperately, the only thing I see that would constitute being stupid is if you willingly throw them together and even ONE other king gets EATEN!!!!!!

See, how could ANYONE be dumb or stupid for making absolutely sure this never happens?????

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

TO BE FAIR, HE QUANTIFIED THAT BY SAYING IF THE SNAKE ISN'T STARVING...
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Todd Hughes

it fits very well if the snake is hungry and the other can't get away! Aaaaaand, it appears to have fit quite well judging from the pictures....
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Todd Hughes

TOTALLY ALL ABOUT CHOICES, WHETHER you PERSONALLY WANT TO ASSUME THE RESPONSIBILITY OF DOING ANYTHING SNAKE-WISE. Guess I can turn of the caps, DOH!

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Todd Hughes