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I have a proven pair of alterna that have not been cooled for two years and I am wondering if anyone thinks there will be any problems breeding them next year after they are brumated? They are both 06. I asked the question on the alterna page but it came out dumb so I was booed of the stage.

and then I was booed OFF the stage..

Yes they will reproduce if brumated this winter.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

thank you

Have you been keeping them together? If not, just put them together now and see what happens. They might surprise you!

I don't brumate my snakes("forced cooling" and they all still breed. I think this is healtheir than making the snakes do what we think they need.

If you keep them seperate leave them together from now on until the female gets gravid. You have a slight chance at getting a clutch out of them this late in the season. If not, just leave them together anyway. Leave them and let them bond all winter. This way they will have a much more likely chance of a successeful breeding/fertilization next spring.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Have you been keeping them together? If not, just put them together now and see what happens. They might surprise you!
>>
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>>I don't brumate my snakes("forced cooling" and they all still breed. I think this is healtheir than making the snakes do what we think they need.
>>
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>>If you keep them seperate leave them together from now on until the female gets gravid. You have a slight chance at getting a clutch out of them this late in the season. If not, just leave them together anyway. Leave them and let them bond all winter. This way they will have a much more likely chance of a successeful breeding/fertilization next spring.

Getula female can become gravid being downwind from a male....
Alterna and Mexicana are far different from and from different habitat and climate Rainer......
It's not as easy as a getula.....
I will continue to brumate them because it works!!!!
If it works then it isn't wrong
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Alterna and Mexicana are far different from and from different habitat and climate Rainer...... It's not as easy as a getula.....

I sued to breed Alterna, mexicana and even some Altnerna mexicana to each other. LOL!

yes I know . I been breeding snakes for years.

I will continue to brumate them because it works

I hear ya. A lot of big breeders feel the same way you do. If it is not broken then why fix it, right?

Well the word "brumate" when applied to snakes is a misuguided term. What you mean is Forced cooling. The snakes just need to produce sperm and follicles.

It is about giving snakes choices. Now what YOU think they need- or needed, may work. But that does not mean it is the best for the snake and/or even necessary for breeding results. Sometimes the snake just survives in spite of us.

This whole thing about keeping and breeding snakes is much like medical practice. notice that even doctors are practising. That is why they call it a practise.

Same with herpetoculture. We need to keep practicsing and evolving. I am pretty sure in 10 years from now the receipe for breeding certain species will have changed.
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www.Bluerosy.com

first poster wrote:
>>I will continue to brumate them because it works
>>
bluerosy responded:
>>I hear ya. A lot of big breeders feel the same way you do. If it is not broken then why fix it, right?
>>
>>Well the word "brumate" when applied to snakes is a misuguided term. What you mean is Forced cooling. The snakes just need to produce sperm and follicles.
>>
that's not what I mean by brumate: I mean creating a condition that simulates conditions in the wild, with 1) lower temps; 2) reduced light periodicity (snakes in the wild spend more time underground) and 3) reduced feeding. All are true for animals in the wild, and all are conditions i create for my animals when brumating them. Under your no-brumation conditions, do you sustain temps at the same level thru the winter as in the summer? Are there windows, thus changing light periodicity? Do you believe your animals consume the same body mass in the winter as in the summer?
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>>It is about giving snakes choices. Now what YOU think they need- or needed, may work. But that does not mean it is the best for the snake and/or even necessary for breeding results. Sometimes the snake just survives in spite of us.

The part of your theory i don't understand, Rainer, is why if [your] method works you conclude it's better than the "brumating" method. They both work, and as you say, that's good but may or may not be best for the animal. Since we can't make a God-like determination of which is better, if they both work, why not defer to nature as a preferred method? (I'm not saying it's absolutely necessary or that other ways don't work too: i'm just saying if they both work, my inclination would be to prefer the one that's similar to the animals' experience in the wild, rather than an artificial condition. Do you see your way as an acceptable alternative, or as a better method?

I can almost hear the answer now........lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Since we can't make a God-like determination of which is better, if they both work

well you aren't giving God much credit,LOL! After all the work He did creating these animals they still don't know whether to sit on the hot or cold side to save their own species!

Giving the animals choices rather than making them sit (FORCING THEM)in one temp is definetly better and more natural. Problem is too many old school heropers are still hooked on the pet Shop manager from the 60 and 70's and from reading THF books when they were 13. I know, that kinda stuff is hard to get out of the system.

Actually the animals will tell us what they need if we listen to them.

When i feed my snakes they sit on the hot side. After they finish digesting they (guess what) move to the cold side to conserve energy.

This happens all winter. I use the temp gun and the snakes are 50F and they still eat at that temperature. Then after they eat, they move on the warm side (approx -85F). Then again after they finish digesting, they again CHOOSE to sit on the cold side.

So you see the snakes do it all for us. We don't need to restrict anything. Just give them choices. God already gave the animals the ability to do it on their own. We are already taking away himidity choices as well as other choices they make. Why not increase the choices rather than restrict them?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Hey if it works I see no problem with it but why spend the extra money on electricity (heat), and food (mice), when we can get the same results by forcing them to cool for three months? Oh and less cage cleaning too! I don't have a problem forcing my son to bed I can do the same with my snakes. Just a thought.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

don't have a problem forcing my son to bed I can do the same with my snakes. Just a thought.

Humans are different than snakes. Snakes rely on instinct. Human behaivior is learned and we have free will.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer if you could convince me that I would get bigger clutches, bigger babies, healthier babies or some substantial advantage for the extra cost and effort I might consider it.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Rainer if you could convince me that I would get bigger clutches, bigger babies, healthier babies or some substantial advantage for the extra cost and effort I might consider it.

So you want returns on investments? You want data? here is some:

How many people complain there snakes don't go like they should every year? I wonder what goes unexpectedly wrong year after year with hundreds of keepers *cough* "BREEDERS">!

Here are some personal facts.

I double clutch 20" females every year with no ill effects

I get triple clutches on 30" females.

I get clucthes in the dead of winter.

My snakes breed in Feb.

Want more facts? I have been stating these facts here all along on this forum. So i didn't just make them up. Some people don't put two and two together to get 4. they just see 22..
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www.Bluerosy.com

I get eggs in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, March, April , May, Jun, July, Aug, Sept, Oct.
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www.Bluerosy.com

well if they eat even during winter i can see how they might give better double and triple clutches. But I don't know how natural it is to get eggs in winter? The way I have things set up now would take a complete overhaul to do it that way and that won't happen for a while. I get good results the old way maybe not triple clutches but double clutches. It depends on how much food the females takes in.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Okay Jorge. You can't have it two ways. Either you want better production or you want to stop feeding and taking care of them all winter.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I hear you. You know if you don't take vacations and work right on thru the whole year you'll make more money too. I really need the break, lol. Maybe it's more for me than the snakes, lol. But consider that in nature the snakes take a break, for whatever it's worth. They probably need the down time too. You may be on to something though, and if it works for you than that's great.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Here are some personal facts.
>>
>>I double clutch 20" females every year with no ill effects
>>

Startling facts, Rainer. I know you said in an earlier post in this thread that snakes and humans are different, but you were talking about psychology and behavior. I suspect there are plenty of similarities between reptile, avian and mammalian physiology and reproductive biology. Ten or eleven year old girls can deliver babies, but it's not generally best for the health of mother or daughter. It'd take a lot to convince me a 20" getula can double clutch regularly without more risk that would be inherent with an older female. Heck, to be honest--seeing is believing, after all--i'd confess to being skeptical that 20" females routinely breed for you, unless i see it for myself. It's not something i'd try or want to try.

Just one little bit of personal observation that might contribute to my narrow-mindedness: I bred lots of hondurans, an animal of similar size to getula, and there was unquestionably less willingness to breed for females 30-36" than at 42" and larger. Statistically, fewer of them ovulated at the smaller size, accepted males' advances, and produced fertile eggs. So I began keeping my females out of the breeding cycle until they reached close to 42" as a minimum. To me, I was following the practice you advocate of watching my snakes, and allowing them to tell me what their breeding needs were. Does that make any sense?

There are lots of field guys on this forum and i'd ask each of them: of the 20" females you've found in the spring, what percentage of them were gravid?

Heck, to be honest--seeing is believing, after all--i'd confess to being skeptical that 20" females routinely breed for you, unless i see it for myself. It's not something i'd try or want to try.

Well you gave your own answer. It is NOT something you would try and you never did. So why the disbelief?

i have posted pics here in the last 3 or 4 years of 20" females with their clutches. Most were more recent. This past two years i have been getting more gravid females then ever before because i know it is possible and I start keeping the snakes together year round at a smaller size.

And heck, somethimes i will throw a 20' female in with giant males. That works just as well.

Not all 20-25" females breed. I don't quite know the answer to why some do and some don't. I will guess it has to do with rate of speed of their growth? Fat ratios? Just some mature earlier than others? Timing of when a season beins and ends. heck i don't know the vaiables in what triggers the females to ovulate. But i bet i could mimick what i am doing with kings with Honduran Milks as well.

Remember when man could not break the 5 minute mile in a foot race. Then one guy did and the following week like 3 others broke it s well. They did it then because they knew it was possible. Same with me and my breeding. Most of it was by accident. Then accident became driven purpose. Then this to became mundane..it's no big secret anymore that females can breed a lot smaller than we thought.

This whole snake breeding thing is the same way. In time this type of debate won't be a debate any longer.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I'd like an answer to Terry's question as well; namely, how many field-collected snakes of that size have been found gravid.

And Jorge's point about seasonal breeding in nature raises an interesting question: Are you trying to do what the snakes do naturally, or are you trying to do what's best for you?

Clearly the potential is there, as you've proven, but snakes don't do that in nature. I could guess as to why--the timing isn't beneficial for food consumption, egg incubation, and it would probably be difficult to maintain breeding condition for as long as you can "force" in captivity. So the snakes are telling you if you play them right, you get more out of them. Is this for them or you? (Please note these are just questions, not an affront.)

How do you know snakes don't breed in nature during winter months? if the temps and food are there they will eat. So that makes it natural.

Ever found perfectly healthy newborn babies on the surfce during early spring? A small percenatag maybe do. These babys found on te urfce during march and April are assumed to have hatched out from the previous season and never ate a meal. But how do we know that? How do we know what these fossorial creatures are doing underground most of their lives. The only thing we know is about the few that come to the surface looking for food, or wandering off to seek another spot they deem suitable for the conditions they require. Or Maybe just another scent trail for new mates to track while te female looks for a suitable log in te forest floor..

As someone once stated. Snakes in captivity can never never be duplicated as being natural in a plastic rubbermaid, sterlite or funny smelling Isis tubs.. So all we can do is support them to act as natural as possible. So what do we really do? We toss in some processed pine shavings and call it bedding. Or better yet, spring for the big bucks, and treat them to Aspen shavings. Then they can tunnel through that hamster maze and they will never know they have left the outdoors habitat,,,ha ha ha! And during breeding get a shoebox and cut a hole on the top and fill it with the finest orchid moss (without additives I might add)and place it loveingly in the best spot for the snake to deposit her eggs. Your snakes are in heaven right now. It's time for Miller beer and some TV and just kick back ..

But what really is happening on the females mind?..... SHE CRAPS IN INSIDE the hatch box full of the expensive Orchid moss. So now she let you know what she thought about that Mr Forest Gump, of that darn laying box. Finally a week later it surmizes that box must be good for something else. So she pushes her nose under the tub and LIFTS IT OFF THE GROUND and THEN PROCEEDS to lay her precious eggs underneath the tub.

GREAT work there Mister breeder extraordinaire! Now you can proudly take those neonates and take pics of your breeding successes and dislay selling tem at some reoptiles show while your collgeges pat you on the back as to what a great snake breeder you are.. REALLY REALLY Great work you have done there supporting these snakes there Mr.Breeder etrodinaire. You are brilliant at B R E E E D I N G Snakes.

We have learned so much from you and those snakes just don't know how to do it right. Crazy buggers. Time to slap each other on the back and congrats all over again on what nice snakes you are producing!

*tEEE* *hee* *hee* *hee*

What cn i say man. Stay with what you are doing. DoN'T try and experiment. I think it is part of human nature to resist change. So actually us humans are acting "naturally" . My 7 year old daughter does not want to try new food. She does this quite frequently with anything she has not eaten before. she will SIT AND CRY AND never consider putting SOMETING SHE DOES NOT RECOGNIZE in her mouth. You see, that is because in her long years in the culinary arts field work. She knows what works for her and what doesn't and sure as heck does not see the point in trying it, if it does not appeal to her senses. I mean it could be dangerous or disgusting. So I trick her into eating it- and guess what? SHE LIKES IT? She more than likes it. Now she wants it as her main staple of food for breakfast lunch and dinner. Then she bugs me to always buy it when we are at the supermarket.

Now she is fat from the ice cream.

My point again. is what snakes do is instinctual and humans have free will. we make makes mistakes. oh! it is obviously our fault and we need to improve on understanding the ecology of each sopeies kept in captivity by figuring out (by thinking like a snake)

hmmmm.... all this from not willing to try something new for the first time.

Human nature is what it is and repeats itself.
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www.Bluerosy.com

This sound like an Obama speech, lol. How do we know the economy wouldn't be worse, if we didn't pass the stimulus? Of course those babies are from the prior season and went into hibernation or brumation shortly after. Heck that happens here in tubs many times. So that is at least a reasonable assumption. Assuming they might breed in winter is not, except for maybe Indigos who do breed in the cooler months.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

way to go rainer
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Wow, quite a response, though the movie reference is lost on me. Never saw Forrest Gump and a couple clips I saw made me think it was a stupid movie. Why do you presume I haven't tried anything new? Because I ask a couple questions? Thanks.

Rainer....
Back in the day...lol...you force cooled your snakes and you know it.....LOL!!!!! You know I'm just bustin your chops man.....

And even now you cool your snakes and provide a hot spot....it's all the same......and both ways work.......

If all the reptile breeding books and caresheets out there said to cool the snake in the dark, provide a hotspot and feed during the winter that would become the norm....the cookie cutter way.....

Then if someone said..."hey...they don't need that hotspot and they don't need to feed during winter....." That would become the "NEW" and improved way to brumate a snake in preparation for breeding....

I think if you get a pair of snakes to reproduce you are doing something right.......right?......

Plus I live in South Texas...Just few inches from hell....It rarely hits 55 here.....So...Force cooling is the way I have proved to be successful...............
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

LMAO, so true John, just a stones throw from Mephistopheles' kitchen! Here, the opposite may be true, that snakes constantly seek the cool spots year-round. Ever had a snake overheat? Not pretty, best to hunt them at night, when it is 85 or so! I know when I watch high metabolism snakes like coachwhips, racers, and indigos down here, they are not out for very long!

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Todd Hughes

It shouldnt be a problem at all. Not everyone brumates all their adults to breed every year. Some rotate, elect not to breed certain ones due to lack of demand, etc. and then brumate and breed in the future. I have a female corn that I did not brumate or breed for four years. She was "dormant" from 2003-2007. Last year I decided to brumate and breed her as well as this year. No problems and fertile clutches both years after the layoff.

now this is what I was after.... Alot of opinions and tons of answers! I dig this forum! Thanks for the info all. I'll check back to the alterna page after I have hatchlings and get blasted about what neighborhood there grandparents were found in. (stupid rookie).

don't worry about the alterna forum, just honestly represent any hatchlings you give away or sell and you are good to go on ANY forum. Heheh, I put a trio of locality alterna together this winter and guess what, no breeding, no eggs, no hatchlings. I fubared it totally, they would have bred if I had supported them better, so, in goes better humidity chambers, more hides, more temp choices.etc., etc., etc. I think all the snakes can achieve around 65-70 degrees just about anywhere there aren't Canucks. Maybe for only a few days here and there in most places, but certainly by utilizing spots they know of. Rocks can get warm and stay warm for quite a long time in the winter. Lots of humid places under there...
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Todd Hughes