Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

My CHOICES Report - grab a drink......

byron.d Aug 12, 2010 06:45 PM

Based on things I’ve learned here on the forum and seen in my animals behavior I decided to try something very different this year. In the Fall of last year I paired up all my breeders – kings, pits, and rats.
I dropped the hotspot temp to 88 degrees - from the normal 91, and let the snakes do what they wanted…… I housed my pairs in 40 inch long tubs with the front third outside the rack (I’ll have to get photos so you can see what I mean). This allowed the front of the enclosure to stay at room temp and created a good temp gradient.
A good number of my breeders are young and this was their second or third year producing – giving me somewhat of a benchmark for comparison….
Most all of my females – of all species, spent equal time on and off the heat source. They feed normally and never refused a meal. My males spent more time on the cool side and some ate less but all did eat. They only used the heat to digest and went right back to the cool side. It should be noted that ALL of my Cal King breeders – all wild caught animals, shut down on feeding in the late Fall, but NEVER left the heat source – and I mean at all. I found this very interesting. They were offered food weekly like all the other snakes but they never once took the rodents.
In the late Spring I noticed a lot of activity in the males and then in the females. Breeding started very shortly after that.
I got the same sized clutches this year – allowing the snakes to do what they wanted, as I did in years past, when I forced them to cool. My Gophers, Bulls, and Kings produced large healthy eggs with an average of fertility rate of 90%.
My Texas rats and Glades rats double clutched with all good eggs (as usual for them), and my Rosy rats produced for the first time this year, very large 100% fertile clutches. As well, my Mexican Bairds produced a large good clutch.
My Black rats threw slugs and I actually sort of expected this because I’ve heard that Black rats need to be cooled to reproduce… I don’t know if this is fact, but my personal results show this to be accurate.
For what it’s worth; I live in So. Cal. So the nighttime lows this past Winter hit the 55 degree mark only a handful of times and never for more than a few days here and there. Average daytime highs really vary… some day were very warm and others were what we consider cool – mid to low 60’s.
All of my eggs are hatching now and so far I’ve had the same hatch rate as I have in the past - 85-90%.

A couple of keepers here have posted results of their “choices” trials and I wanted to give up my results. From this point forward, I’ll be doing this every year.

Thanks for reading and I hope it helps some.

Byron.d

Replies (56)

Jlassiter Aug 12, 2010 06:49 PM

Great information Byron......
So you got the same results both ways and probably would have had some black rats if you force cooled them.......hmmmmmm
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

bluerosy Aug 12, 2010 07:21 PM

So you got the same results both ways and probably would have had some black rats if you force cooled them.......hmmmmmm

Awww Jeez John.


-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Jlassiter Aug 12, 2010 07:58 PM

>>
>>So you got the same results both ways and probably would have had some black rats if you force cooled them.......hmmmmmm
>>
>>Awww Jeez John.

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Hehehehe....you are so easy to get to.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

a153fish Aug 12, 2010 08:11 PM

Forcing them to cool you get a break and don't have to keep feeding them all year! That one is the selling point for sure.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Jlassiter Aug 12, 2010 08:12 PM

>>Forcing them to cool you get a break and don't have to keep feeding them all year! That one is the selling point for sure.

Especially if you get the same results......I will cool them....it works and my snakes have ALL the choices in the world when their world warms up......ha
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

byron.d Aug 12, 2010 09:31 PM

I look forward to seeing and working with my snakes on a daily basis. I dont have a monster collection and I dont have a problem affording their feed. I do this because I love it. Making a few bucks every year is just icing..... or rodents.

byron.d

a153fish Aug 12, 2010 10:06 PM

I hear ya man. I'm not knocking what you do. It's just been a long debate here on KS and for those of us who do have large collections and have hundreds of bebies to get started and eating and all that is involved during the breeding season we do look for a break and some down time. I almost envy you guys with just a few snakes. But at the same time I love working with lot's of snakes, but I do look forward to the winter time for a change of pace.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Jeff Schofield Aug 12, 2010 08:07 PM

Is that you followed someone else's idea and the results werent as good as you did before.....yet you are going to do this again next season? I got a bridge for sale that would take you straight to work without traffic......derrrr

byron.d Aug 12, 2010 09:24 PM

that I tried something new and different (for me) and I'm very happy with the results. Considering the animals that I'm passionate about working with and the results I got from them, I will do this as long as it works and my animals are happy and healthy.
I got lame results from my blk rats - I expected it. I really like them but I care nearly as much about reproducing them as I do my kings, rats, and pits. If I had poor results from them, it would be a different story.

byron.d

a153fish Aug 12, 2010 10:13 PM

If it works for you than that's good. Im glad to hear you had some success with the aproach. John made a good point that if you had Brumated them then even the Black Rats would have bred. Just like you I and many like me have found a method that works for us and has been tried and true for years and years. The choice is up to the individual. I don't tell people they need to Brumate their animals, but I do tell people I have had success doing it and so have hundreds of others breeders like me. I like putting them to rest for a while.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Bluerosy Aug 12, 2010 10:17 PM

John made a good point that if you had Brumated them then even the Black Rats would have bred

How do we know this for a fact? Lots of people do forced cooling and their snakes don't reproduce. With that logic all forced cooling will keep the snakes from reproducing.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Jlassiter Aug 12, 2010 10:53 PM

I often wonder what the temps are in an underground snake "den."
I believe it is warmer there than the surface temps..... Especially for my high elevation montane and mexicana snakes....

I am sure there is water to be found underground as well as different humidity levels......

All the other reptiles and rodents seek shelter from the cold in these same underground areas......

So with all that being said I believe a mexican or montane snake in the wild will seek these underground areas to protect them from the surface temps.....They will only eat when the temps are warm enough for digestion......

What I don't know is the amount of times they will eat due to the amount of days of sun shine and warm surface temps.....I bet they do go a period of time without any food at all......They certainly do not eat two to three times a week......

Maybe a getula from the south will though......As we all know that down here it will get into the 80s during the winter......

I don't think it does in the Sierra Madre Occidental or the Santa Ritas Mountains.......

So......I force cool my snakes for 3 months in the dark....They have a brumation chamber with its own window unit air conditioner. I brumate them in pairs.....No cannibalism because it is too cold for them to want to eat....

If you want to talk about forcing......We force them to be captives....We force them not to chose a mate....We choose it for them....We force them all them time......They readily accept any opportunity to be a snake (ie: feeding, breeding, digesting, seeking humidity and seeking temperature).....

We have captive snakes in our homes.....No predators...No impacts of natural disaster or unnatural habitat destruction......We are in the hobby of selective propagation....That is all....That is how us humans now have pet cats and dogs.....different colors of cows and horses.....And so on......

So I will continue to do what works for me and you can continue to do what works for you....But I am not going to preach that one way is wrong ever.....If you can get them to reproduce you are doing something right!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

DMong Aug 12, 2010 11:12 PM

Makes perfect sense to me too. Different doesn't have to always equate to being "wrong", just different. Also, yes, the two snakes mentioned are certainly VERY different as well.

Also, it's not every single person's intent here on the forums to always produce as many eggs as humanly possible from their snakes either, so different things, for different situations and agenda's needs to be taken into consideration with all this too.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Aug 12, 2010 11:45 PM

Also, it's not every single person's intent here on the forums to always produce as many eggs as humanly possible from their snakes either, so different things, for different situations and agenda's needs to be taken into consideration with all this too

Ah but good reprodcution also equals good husbandry and healthy captives.

What is intersting is nobody is getting the difference between forced cooling and choice cooling. That the snakes actually CHOOSE the cold temps rather than the warm unless they have eaten. And they eat while they are cold. That just bloows me away that nobody gest this. They just use the heat to digest. They still cycle and they are healthier in the end since the snakes are the ones wanting to eat when they are cold.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Jlassiter Aug 12, 2010 11:48 PM

>>Also, it's not every single person's intent here on the forums to always produce as many eggs as humanly possible from their snakes either, so different things, for different situations and agenda's needs to be taken into consideration with all this too
>>
>>Ah but good reprodcution also equals good husbandry and healthy captives.
>>
>>
>>What is intersting is nobody is getting the difference between forced cooling and choice cooling. That the snakes actually CHOOSE the cold temps rather than the warm unless they have eaten. And they eat while they are cold. That just bloows me away that nobody gest this. They just use the heat to digest. They still cycle and they are healthier in the end since the snakes are the ones wanting to eat when they are cold.
>>-----

Did you even read my post??????
It is like talking to a wall......

I understand everything you are doing..........completely.

You are no more correct than I am........
>>www.Bluerosy.com
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Jlassiter Aug 12, 2010 11:50 PM

>>Also, it's not every single person's intent here on the forums to always produce as many eggs as humanly possible from their snakes either, so different things, for different situations and agenda's needs to be taken into consideration with all this too
>>
>>Ah but good reprodcution also equals good husbandry and healthy captives.
>>
>>
>>What is intersting is nobody is getting the difference between forced cooling and choice cooling. That the snakes actually CHOOSE the cold temps rather than the warm unless they have eaten. And they eat while they are cold. That just bloows me away that nobody gest this. They just use the heat to digest. They still cycle and they are healthier in the end since the snakes are the ones wanting to eat when they are cold.
>>-----

And you choose when to feed them during this "cycle?"
>>www.Bluerosy.com
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Bluerosy Aug 13, 2010 12:08 AM

And you choose when to feed them during this "cycle?"

No! I "offer" them food just as i offer them choices of temps. They either choose to eat or not to eat or to stay hot or cold...

This thread should be titled Choices vs Forced.

I consider forced cooling and putting a snake on a once a week feeding schedule as old skool. Sure it works. I can survice on canned dog food in Alaska as well.

Gotcha John!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Jlassiter Aug 13, 2010 08:34 AM

>>And you choose when to feed them during this "cycle?"
>>
>>No! I "offer" them food just as i offer them choices of temps. They either choose to eat or not to eat or to stay hot or cold...

How often to you you "offer" them food? If you were really providing choices you would not be throwing a frozen thawed chics & mice in there....True choices would be live rodents of different types, live lizards, live snakes, etc.....YOU FORCE them to eat what you choose......Gotcha Rainer.....LOL

>>This thread should be titled Choices vs Forced.

You and I and everyone here force more than we know....The main thing we force them to be is to be captives......

>>I consider forced cooling and putting a snake on a once a week feeding schedule as old skool. Sure it works. I can survice on canned dog food in Alaska as well.
>>Gotcha John!

LOL.....When my snakes are out of brumation they have all the choices/options necessary......I probably provide more than you do......I know all about options.....One day my invention will be in everyone's Rubbermaid or Sterlite Tub.......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

DMong Aug 13, 2010 11:02 AM

......And what about "forcing" them to live all piled together all year round in the same tub, and fending for themselves when thrown in a handful of food and constricting anything that moves from all the excitement??..LMAO!!!.......Never any stress THERE I wouldn't guess. What about a slower feeder?

I'm "sure" every single snake gets it's equally devided portion there too..LOL!

It certainly doesn't mean it is ANY better at all for the snakes that "supposedly" have all these choices, just might make more eggs is all than if they were kept seperated.

What about the snakes that "choose" to get the hell away from all the others?

I see alot of this being convenience for the keeper, not the snakes.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

a153fish Aug 13, 2010 12:40 PM

Doug is right I suspect a lot of this is brought on originally by the need to save space! So putting snakes in groups seems to fix the problem. If you want something to work you can convince yourself that it is a good thing. I'm sure stress plays a big part when housing snakes in groups. It's not natural! If you open the top would all those snakes choose to stay in that group or would each go on their merry way? Doug also mention smaller snakes who might not be getting enough food cause it's cage mates don't let it it. It happens! What if two snakes grab the same mouse? I've seen rat snake eat each other doing this.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Bluerosy Aug 13, 2010 12:49 PM

Doug is right I suspect a lot of this is brought on originally by the need to save space! So putting snakes in groups seems to fix the problem. If you want something to work you can convince yourself that it is a good thing. I'm sure stress plays a big part when housing snakes in groups. It's not natural! If you open the top would all those snakes choose to stay in that group or would each go on their merry way? Doug also mention smaller snakes who might not be getting enough food cause it's cage mates don't let it it. It happens! What if two snakes grab the same mouse? I've seen rat snake eat each other doing this

I could care less if the snakes are in groups or not. I actually prefer they did not. It would be easier for me if they didn't. i DO IT FOR THE SNAKES. NOT TO SAVE SPACE.

SNAKES BOND. That takes the guess work out of timing when it comes to breeding season. If kept together they won't miss a breeding if the female ovulates.

That is why i get clutches year round. I bet all the snakes you are all keeping in seperate containers are ovulating. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

a153fish Aug 13, 2010 12:57 PM

Well I don't know if they are ovulating during the winter but I can keep track of who the daddy a lot easier.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

DMong Aug 13, 2010 01:15 PM

"What if two snakes grab the same mouse? I've seen rat snake eat each other doing this"

I know, like that never happens either over the course of all this..LMAO!

I don't believe it for a second personally, unless they are all watched like a hawk, then moved with a stick or hook just before it happens. Even so, when the handfull of food is gone, I'm sure the scent of mice or chicks is all over the snakes faces too. I have fed PLENTY of snakes together in the same cage many years ago, a few of mine(corns), but also my friends kids stuff he houses together(a few Ball Pythons), and I had to intervene quickly countless times with those scenarios. How the hell could this be so different with any kings???........pleeease!, I just don't accept it man!

It's all about not having the proper space, and/or enclosures here, more than it is about what is best for all the communal snakes.

What about snakes crapping all over each other?, ...no, that can't be an issue..LOL!. If some pathogen or bacteria was ever to plague any of these individuals, would that put the other "communal bonding" group at very high risk???.....again, I'm quite sure that could never happen....

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Aug 13, 2010 01:22 PM

You guys all need to come down in a group and stay for a day at my place to see what i am doing. Kinda a group lesson.

You can test all your theories out right here.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

thomas davis Aug 13, 2010 01:27 PM

woohoo im there dude! i think a boxing/wrestleing ring should be provided for the "tough" guys to work thangs out. ,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

byron.d Aug 13, 2010 01:32 PM

I'll be on beer patrol!

byron.d

thomas davis Aug 13, 2010 01:46 PM

guiness for me,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

DMong Aug 13, 2010 01:35 PM

"i think a boxing/wrestleing ring should be provided for the "tough" guys to work thangs out"

Yes, that would be cool, but you getting hurt wouldn't be a fun time for you, would it?. I would have thought you would want to go there to have fun!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Aug 13, 2010 01:52 PM

yeah like EVERYTHING doug we even have a differant view about what fun is. i wont get hurt and if i did hey it was in the name of fun sobeit,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Bluerosy Aug 13, 2010 01:37 PM

woohoo im there dude! i think a boxing/wrestleing ring should be provided for the "tough" guys to work thangs out. ,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas

i don't know about the tough guy thing. All of these posters here are tough guys. FR, John, you, Jorge, Byron. It would be all kinda equal. No Wait! no there is Doug! Yeah he can be everybodys girlfriend. He kinda looks cute in a selleck kinda way

he can stay in the snake room to make sure none of the snakes eat each other after i throw the mice in. he can also clean some of the cages while we BS.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

thomas davis Aug 13, 2010 01:45 PM

that is TOO funny man OHAHAHAAHHAHAHA, oh to see douggy's face when he read that AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

DMong Aug 13, 2010 01:50 PM

Hilarious stuff there bud!..HAHAHAAA!!

You can be the "homozygote" if ya want, but I would rather be doing something else to be quite honest..LMAO!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Aug 13, 2010 02:23 PM

I wish one year at Daytona we could all get together and have a few laughs. I think we would have a great time.

Now get me a beer Doug! LOL!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

DMong Aug 13, 2010 03:09 PM

LOL!, Yeah, it is all about having a good "reptilian" time there man!......BUUUURRRPPP!!!

~Doug

Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

a153fish Aug 12, 2010 11:56 PM

What is intersting is nobody is getting the difference between forced cooling and choice cooling. That the snakes actually CHOOSE the cold temps rather than the warm unless they have eaten. And they eat while they are cold. That just bloows me away that nobody gest this. They just use the heat to digest. They still cycle and they are healthier in the end since the snakes are the ones wanting to eat when they are cold.

Snakes sometimes choose to eat their eggs! I find it interesting, but I think we are putting way too much emphasis on letting the snakes choose what they want. If they had a real choice and we could really hear what they were saying, then we would hear them saying .....let me out please!!!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

FR Aug 13, 2010 08:39 AM

A person any person trys a method once and judges the results and compares them to longterm practiced results, is very naive. When did people get so confident that they think any and all of these methods are that simple? That a single attempt is all it takes.

I do not like to say this but, as a pioneer, even brumation took many years to perfect until there were no failures.

About blackrats, I had no problem producing them without hibernation. So what did we do different?

So my take is, why do folks think that one attempt at any method is enough to judge by? Doesnt anyone think that all these methods need adjustment?

Jlassiter Aug 13, 2010 08:45 AM

>>A person any person trys a method once and judges the results and compares them to longterm practiced results, is very naive. When did people get so confident that they think any and all of these methods are that simple? That a single attempt is all it takes.
>>
>> I do not like to say this but, as a pioneer, even brumation took many years to perfect until there were no failures.
>>
>> About blackrats, I had no problem producing them without hibernation. So what did we do different?
>>
>> So my take is, why do folks think that one attempt at any method is enough to judge by? Doesnt anyone think that all these methods need adjustment?

Great reply Frank....
And as I am typing this I am thinking of all adjustments I have made over the years concerning brumation periods, when to bring the males out and when to bring the females out, etc.....I've even pondered the idea of warming them up once a month and giving them a meal then cooling them again until the next month.....But again this is more forcing them to do what I want.......
So...Over the last 15 years I have made many adjustments.....But I honestly have to say I have had good years and I have had bad years with fertility........I will continue to work out the bugs until it is right......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

FR Aug 13, 2010 10:41 AM

I also understand that most of captive husbandry is about our, the keepers control, over the snakes. As in, I do this, that and the other and I get or I am suppose to get, this that and the other response.

As you know, I often represent the otherside of the coin. As in, what about the snakes, what are their actual needs and abilities.

What becomes a human problem is, this is taken poorly, as in, FR is all that and not the other. Frankly, I do not care what others do, but I do like to allow everyone to THINK.

For instance, you stated what you thought Thayeri does in the winter compared to what Pyros do in the Santa Ritas. Saint Rita, was the patron saint of artists and hookers(at the time hookers were an art form) So you think about what they may or may not actually do.

The actual point is, all these kings try to do about the same thing, the difference is, how they achieve that in different conditions(mountain ranges, parts of the world, different climates, etc)

I have seen these animals in the winter in many many of these different habitats, and I can tell you, THEY ARE NOT ASLEEP. They seek conditions that allow them to achieve tasks.

In the winter, the tasks are different then in the summer, or spring or fall for that matter. But they still are tasks. They are not asleep.

In the cases of reproductive adults, the winter is a time to party. that is, hang out, get together, socialize, etc. Pick a mate if you will. Dang it, we should all understand this by now.

It still kills(slays me) that folks know that snakes den, EVEN IN WARM CLIMATES. And do not put two and two together. Yes, thayeri gather in groups, the size depends on support, as do pyros, as do ruthvens, as do getulus, etc etc etc.(I have seen dozens in very small areas(all the above and more)

You sorta hit the nail on the head when you said you pair them in winter. But you are not thinking about how and why. At least you did not mention it.

For instance, this friggin thread is based on the thinking that the snakes have no mind or intentions or health issues of their own. We here think they are windup toys, and our stupid little adjustments are solely responsible for results. We think we can change this and that will automatically occur. FOLKS, these are animals, they have a life of their own. No different then any animal. Something you all need to understand is, with animals, all animals, there is a RANGE of results depending of the physical, behavioral, prejudices of the ANIMAL. As in, they indeed have something to say about it. In fact, they have everything to say about it.

Yet, what I read here is, I did this, I did that, I made this, and I named that. As in, you call a nest box a nest box, when in fact, only the females can apply a name to the box, or cage, or waterbowl. After a female successfully uses and reuses an area, can you call it a nest area, box or what have you.

To be acturate, you can call it a potential nest box, etc. For instance a cage, a cage is only defined as a cage if the enclosed cannot get out, if it does get out, the cage part does not fit and its only a box the snake gets out of. As in, not caged. hahahahahahahaha, OK, let me have fun with this AS IN, thing.

So when I read someone is attempting to try something different, and they said, I did this and heres the results. By difinition, if you did not recieve the intended results, you did nothing. You only attempted to do or achieve something. To fail is common, to succeed is rare, and that has nothing to do with the snakes.

As in, when considering are(keepers)methods, we must also consider that there are many variables, including the individual health and prejudices of each and every animal. Not just family, or genus or species diffences, but the biggest and most important difference, individual.

Sorry for that but that is the focal point on our longterm field studies. As in, the hows and whys do individuals in the same population, react differently to the same stimulus. Hmmmmmmm to insure continued survival,under changing conditions. Cheers

byron.d Aug 13, 2010 11:06 AM

* For instance, this friggin thread is based on the thinking that the snakes have no mind or intentions or health issues of their own. *

Frank. This friggin thread based on the thinking that snakes can decide for themselves what they want to do within the given constraints. I gave them the option to be on the cool side or the warm side or to eat or not to eat. I supported their health and well being by offering food and heat - if they wanted it. I didnt force anything on them - other than captivity.

What in my initial post indicated that I forced something on them or more on point, indicated that I think they are mindless and have no natural instincts??

For me, this wasnt about breeding results. It was about seeing what would happen if I did something different - let my snakes SHOW me and TELL me what they wanted.

If it all went to hell, I would do something different next year.

* So when I read someone is attempting to try something different, and they said, I did this and heres the results. By difinition, if you did not recieve the intended results, you did nothing. You only attempted to do or achieve something. To fail is common, to succeed is rare, and that has nothing to do with the snakes. *

What were my intended results???? There were no intentions here, Frank. I wanted to support my animals and for me to learn something from them.
I clearly stated that I got similar results from the years past, but I really learned something here and I'm happy with what I learned. I'll do this same thing next year with a few more tweaks, and I hope to lean even more. It's not about what works for me, it's about what works for them.

Thanks for the ride.

byron.d

Jlassiter Aug 13, 2010 11:38 AM

There is NOTHING there I do not agree with......I don't think my thayeri or any snake sleeps during a cold brumation or during the winter in the wild.....I've seen my captive thayeri moving around, drinking water and trying to breed sometimes at 40F or so.......I know what they do and I try to help them do what they do.......to the best of my ability.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

FR Aug 14, 2010 10:15 AM

The problem with your last post is, "DURING A COLD BRUMATION" Your assuming where these animals go is cold or cool in the winter.

First problem is, the use of air temps as a guide to reptile temp usage. Using air temps is dumb as a stone, it was started before I was born, yet science cannot get rid of it. Air temps are very misleading and not accurate with the biology of reptiles. Ground or mass temps are key to understanding reptiles and what they do.

An example, take the Santa Ritas. I have explored that mountain range inside and out. And yes, I mean inside.

In Gardener Canyon(actually cave creek) There is a cave, funny how that naming thing works. This cave is at 6500 feet aprox. The hill is east west in a east west canyon. Which means one long side is south facing. Shocking as this may sound, the AIR TEMPS in this cave is aprox 72F year around. That is, after the first couple of feet in depth, the air is that temp. Consider, the air temps are an average of all the sides mass temps. Which indicates that the mass temps on the sunny side of the canyon, which is where the snakes live, is hotter then 72f, once you escape the surface. Now lets move to the west side of the mountain range, here there is another cave, at the mouth of Agua Caliente canyon(hot water) This cave is at aprox 4500 feet, its air temps are 82 year around, which means, if a snake went down more then a couple feet, it would be way to hot to hibernate or brumate, or simply get cool. Then if you actually took the mass temps by depth and direction, you will shock yourself about everything you ever thought about temps and reptiles.

Now consider, the sun exposure at where L.m.thayeri, occur is greater then here. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm makes a person wonder.

Again the problem, science taught us to take DATA, but it forgot to tell us, to take important data. In the case of temps, no snake hovers in the air and uses air temps.

Also, in the decades of taking temps with wild snakes, finding one that was the same as air temps is rare and lucky. In most cases they reflect mass temps and our influenced by radiant sun temps.

Also, most body temps taken with reptiles in the field are not in context. The common temps taken are snake crawling from one place to the other(easy to find) This is about the least important temps. As they can and do use a huge range of temps to do this.

Whats important are temps that are task oriented. Like at what temp does a basking gravid female move to cooler temps, or at what temp does a basking individual with a food bolus move away from heat, and what size is that bolus. Or in this case, what are the body temps of adult breeders seeking to maintain during the winter, which is way different then non breeders. Etc etc.

of course, all these events include as range of temps, like at what temp do they move to heat if they can find it. Etc.

Those temps are important useful in captivity temps, not some much the average body temps of a hundred crawling animals that have no context for the use of temps.

So What I question is, why do you think brumation is cold? and what part of the population is cold?

Also you mentioned 40F. I have mentioned in the past that its relatively common to find our study animals on the surface and active, with body temps in the mid to high forties. In fact, I have found five species of python and two three species of boas, crossing the road or crawling in the high fifties to low sixties. Which is considered below hibernation temps for those snakes. In fact, only a few species of python cross roads in air temps above 78F. Most seem to be cold lovers.

So yes, I wonder about your statement of cold brumation and snakes commonly denning or gathering on elevated south facing, north of the equator, and north facing south of the equator, slopes. Also the fact that these gatherings are normally composed of reproductive adults. And this occurs from equatorial areas to the extreme north and south. Funny huh?

Jlassiter Aug 14, 2010 11:25 AM

Thanks for that info Frank....
I was waiting for that info and kinda saw it all coming prior to your post....

I have often thought that temperature underground would be in the 70's......And wondered why we cool our snakes for breeding.....But I have yet to get a pair of Mexicana to reproduce without this forced cooling......

I also believe that all prey items retreat to the same area the snakes are during winter.....So there is plenty of food, plenty of water, different ranges of humidity and temperature......
So...why do we not feed them during the winter?.......

I do provide all the necessary options throughout Fall, Spring and Summer......

I think I am going to experiment this year with a pair of thayeri......I know I can get getula to breed without a cooling as I have once before......Cornsnakes too....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

FR Aug 14, 2010 09:19 PM

I think the point is, snakes are cool lovers all the time and use heat for certain tasks, and that is year around.

The key to breeding any reptile is understanding in order to reproduce they must be able to use and conserve energy. That is, have both heat and cool.

When you force cool something most think the cold is what allows them to reproduce. But that is wrong. Its when you start to warm them up, they have cool and warm to pick from. Once its consistant heat, then they can no longer store enough energy to use for reproduction. And this goes for every type of reptile I have ever produced.

So don't think of it as forced brumation, offer cool all the time, its what they naturally attempt to do.

of course, there are two possible times of the year that hinder that, and that is prolonged heat of mid summer and extreme cold of harsh winters.

Somehow its A to Z with keeping, hibernate or not, when hibernation is something these animals seek to avoid, the breeders find the hottest spots 24/7 365 to congregate, even here in the desert where its hot. They still use south facing high sun exposure areas for denning and rookerys. Cheers

FR Aug 14, 2010 09:34 PM

About mex mex. I think its the coldest there in the summer, during the rainy season. Same for thayeri. I found gravid females, in mid to late march, which is well ahead of our montane kings here. Cheers

BobS Aug 14, 2010 07:56 PM

The man makes you think LOL

antelope Aug 16, 2010 11:09 PM

he does his job well, catch that gravid in March comment, lol. I know they breed when they want to, I think we force all on them by manipulating their ability to get what they need when they need it.
-----
Todd Hughes

a153fish Aug 13, 2010 12:32 PM

Do we have to take some substance before we can make sense of this post? A moment of silence please! FR has posted! Man you are all over the place. No one insulted the original poster nor did they said this was bad. We all just gave our opinions on the idea! Isn't that what this forum is for or do we all have to bow down to the altar of FR-ism? Hey I gotta go my snake wants me to change the channel on his little TV. It's his birthday and he's throwing a party and has some prostitute snakes flown in from up from Miami.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

DMong Aug 13, 2010 12:39 PM

HAHAHAHHA!!!!

"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!"

Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

rtdunham Aug 13, 2010 09:44 PM

>>...Yes, thayeri gather in groups...as do pyros, as do ruthvens, as do getulus, etc...(I have seen dozens in very small areas(all the above and more)...

c'mon, don't tempt us like that. You've had such amazing observations, they deserve more than a passing mention. Let us live vicariously. Where, for example, did you see dozens of getulus in a group together? What ssp? How many? What were the conditions? How did you find them, and what was your reaction? What were the snakes doing? Share some of that experience and field work findings with us. I think if we better understood--could see what you've seen, as it were, there might be a lot more agreement with some of the management practices you propose. Tantalize us!

a153fish Aug 13, 2010 10:13 AM

Seems that we have established that both methods give good results. Long term effects have not been established on the Eggs every month thing. But both techniques seem to work, and both have ups sides, and down sides.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

byron.d Aug 13, 2010 10:40 AM

Frank.

Not sure if this was directed at me or John....... So I will elaborate on my decision.
My results this year - my first year doing this, are compared to what I've done in the past. I have not and will not consider this or any other method gospel. Like you have always recommended, I gave my snakes choices - let them do what wanted - well, what they chose to do within this restricted environment at least.
It's a learning curve - everything we do to support our animals is an experiment of sorts. I think it always has been and will continue to be. I'm trying to learn from THEM as well as YOU and others ideas and methods - isnt that what this is all about?

I'm very happy with what I learned this year and I will continue to do things this way until my snakes tell me different. If this were a business to me I would do whatever it took to 'get that money' - hibernate, burmate, pole dance, play Barry White in the springtime... Whatever it takes to get them to produce eggs and money.
I do this for fun and a huge part of that for me to learn as much from my animals and from those that have paved the way in this hobby (you and a handful of others), as well as someone brand new to this that tried something totally ridiculous that somehow worked. It's all learning and I'm more than willing to try different things..... Like that time in college....... (kidding. Really).

I'm not on a soapbox here preaching and pointing fingers. I'm sharing what I did and learned so that others can and hopefully will share their ideas and methods. If someone wants to be a bonehead and negatively criticize what I choose to do, then so be it. I'm learning something there as well - who has a closed mind and isnt willing to entertain something different.

If the naive comment you made was directed at me, can you explain that for me....?

Thanks for listening.

byron.d

rtdunham Aug 13, 2010 09:34 PM

i like your point of view.

jlassiter Aug 13, 2010 10:41 PM

>>i like your point of view.

Thanks Terry.....I just call em like I see em......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Bluerosy Aug 12, 2010 09:43 PM

Is that you followed someone else's idea and the results werent as good as you did before.....yet you are going to do this again next season? I got a bridge for sale that would take you straight to work without traffic......derrrr

Actually forced cooling is somebody elses idea as well.

It seems like you all want to be called snake breeders. When in fact if you leave the darn snakes alone they can manage fine on their own and then you won't be called a breeder any longer. That is the real issue here.

And as i recall hearing year after year. Is how many "breeders" have problems with their snakes reproducing... Either infertile eggs. the male wasn't interested, all my snakes are having a bad year, yada yada yada, etc etc.

Have we forgotten all this? Is everybody really that resistent to a change in husbandry that actually improves the snakes choices by giving a more natural approach?

I bet once people start giving their snakes choices in temps (as well as keeping bonded snakes in groups). They will realize it takes the guesswork out of breeding rituals. Then they will realize they are not the ones BREEDING. It's the snakes that are doin it. And they are doing it themselves..

.. I bet more double and triple clucthes start happening as well.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Jeff Schofield Aug 13, 2010 12:14 AM

Rainer, we have had alot of talk on here about "choices". More of us have tried these "choices" this year than ever before. I dont find it all that coincidental that across the board successful breeders attempting new techniques have had their worst breeding years EVER. E V E R! What works for Floridana in GA is alot different than what works for Eastern Milks up here in Mass. These "choices" can be forced stumbling blocks in the way of a technique that has worked for decades! While some people can "learn" to do things differently, others can "learn" to stick with what works for them. We can always try and do things BETTER, but I would suggest tweaking a working method than trying to reinvent the wheel. JMHO.

Bluerosy Aug 13, 2010 12:27 AM

but I would suggest tweaking a working method than trying to reinvent the wheel

Agreed. And that IS what I am suggesting. For people to think and use their heads. I would think that a normallly intelligent person would know that keeping snakes with a heat tape on won't offer choices if the air temp is 75F. We are talking choices here so obviously this won't work for warmer climates unless tweaked..

I have known breeders in warm climates to place snakes in coolers just to get them cold for two weeks. There are all sorts of methods. But my opinion is a short cooling period of two weeks is better for the snake than 3 months.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Site Tools