Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Fish, I'm trying to respect folks on both sides. Common denominator seems to be each group feeling like they like their snakes enough they are trying to meet needs? Safety vs.socialization? I figure if folks like Frank with his experience talk about it should be considered even if you ultimately disagree with implementing it with your own precious animals.

I sometimes think the whole thing is a moot point.

Why do we even suggest it when the majority of new folks coming up are caging in CB70 size tubs. Sanitation for one adult size Brooks is challenging and intensive as it is in a container that size for one animal when well fed! Suggesting people coming up house trios and more together will have them putting multiple animals in a tub that size? That's not a snake enclosure, it's more like a snake jail don't you think? People are people and snakes are snakes I don't know if there are many legitimate paralells but 3 guys in one 8'x8' cell is stressful and not good for humans. Then to have new guys dumping in a dozen F/T mice where the animals are lying coil to coils in a small plastic box is certainly got to be stressful. I can't picture wild animals that maybe roam at minimum a 1/2 acre area ever being subjected to that kind of feeding stress in nature. It seems to me in nature when they are lying coil to coil they are hibernating and not eating much then? I see hobbyists doing the bare minimum at times coming up. Not many Vision 6' cages being used as a norm in my experience to house multiple adult Kings. Then again I could be totally wrong about this. It is an interesting topic though.

>I sometimes think the whole thing is a moot point.

totally agreed, anything that actually has to do with the individual snakes themselves is a moot point on this forum, also ALL cages are jails regardless of size.

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"also ALL cages are jails regardless of size."

Yeah, it's hard to get past that point...

Even the "naturalistic" ones at best tend to be on the order of 6'x 3' x "18 high and don't compare with free ranging for at least a 1/2 an acre or more....Who's fooling who? The keeper or the kept?............

But a halfway house is better than a small cell in solitary?

I don't know. I mull these things over a lot....

Have a good time at Daytona, Maybe see ya next year.

>Have a good time at Daytona, Maybe see ya next year.

>>>im not going to daytona this year ;( but maybe next year we'll see,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

np

if that is all the vision you have, then its a moot point to you. But not all keepers share that same vision. Some may want more out of there captives.

And that is my point, There is more to snakes then a snake in a drawer, like some friggin baseball cards. For darn sakes, they are living animals.

To some degree the respect for them as living animals is lost in this morph collecting approach. It becomes all about colors or lack of colors and not about the animals, which are again living.

This is not meant to be mean, but why not just collect skins, Then you would not have to feed them or clean cages.

Yes yes, I am being overdramatic, but there is some middle ground to have thought about.

Caging them does not have to mean taking everything thats natural to them away. Caging them does not have to mean duplicating nature exactly.

But keeping them as a visual toy only, is a little sad for those of us to respect them as creatures of nature.

Also, I sell mice to pet shops and I often see and talk to people who buy snakes because they like snakes, they keep them in large cages and enjoy watching the snakes do snake things. Those folks must be beginers or something. Cheers

And that is my point, There is more to snakes then a snake in a drawer, like some friggin baseball cards. For darn sakes, they are living animals.

"Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???" No one is safe when he gets on a roll not even his disciple, lol!

To some degree the respect for them as living animals is lost in this morph collecting approach. It becomes all about colors or lack of colors and not about the animals, which are again living.

But keeping them as a visual toy only, is a little sad for those of us to respect them as creatures of nature.

Juggled any eggs lately?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

For A smart guy I think you missed the point of my post. cheers.

I responded to TD if you will notice. Its also very hard to tell what someone actually intended to say, when they do not come out and clearly state it, hahahahahahahahha boy do I know that one.

I had a nice conversation with Manny Rubio yesterday, we did lunch. He mentioned something like he and I were the same. Many people think this and that about us(whatever that may be) Then explained, people think we know everything. Then he said, usually people that are really good at something like this, are focused and really good at certain areas of that something. Which was my chosen path. In my youth the good herpers were generalist, they knew a tiny bit about all herps, but did not know any in depth. At that point, I chose to take Kingsnakes and specialize in them. The rest was history. I believe that was what I was a actual pioneer at, chosing to narrow my knowledge base and expose a deeper view into one small area. Cheers

P.S. i am reading his new book at the moment, don't tell anybody, its not out yet.

np

I think the "my way is better than your way" idea is a bit idiotic. I think there are some snakes that are bad producers no matter how they are housed. I think there are some snakes that have good production years and bad production years even when kept in the same conditions. I think there are some snakes that produce fantastic, fertile clutches year after year, no matter how they're cycled. I think it's OK to say that we don't know why this is the case.

To me the self-proclaimed "pioneers" might be worthy of respect if they actually posted photos of the "ultimate snake breeding set-up." Kinda makes me wonder if their way is so great, why they won't show it.

Also breeding records would be useful as well. I have a hard time believing folks who claim to have bred every type of snake known to man (and a boatload of hybrids as well) and have no pics or breeding records that they can show as "proof." Bragging about stuff that alledgedly happened a few decades ago isn't proof of anything.

Are the "pro choice" people saying that they're getting 100% fertility and better-than-average clutch sizes on a continual basis from their snakes? And what about longevity? How long is the lifespan of snakes kept this way?

If so, and if they can back it up with proof, I think they'd have a much more avid listenership (yeah, I know FR, you don't care who listens to you hahahahaha).

All these posts have been are a bunch of boastful "my way is better than yours" comments without any way to back up those claims (except for byrond's original post, where it seems he was trying out an "alternate" way of keeping and breeding his snakes).

Tim

Hi Tim, heres something for you to consider, Its not about me, its about the animals.

Yes, I do not need or require your believing me or not. What requires your thought is your animals.

The part about the past is exactly that, the past. Which is what really bothers me. That is, a lot of you folks here are trying to find cures to problems that were fixed decades ago. That is sad. Are those problems mine to solve now, no, they are yours.

You see, I am an X kingsnake keeper that has moved on to other animals. I am an X kingsnake keeper and breeder because of the "snakes in drawers" movement. I could not stand to see the snakes I worked so hard to establish kept in shoeboxes. But then, that is my problem and not yours.

I am not here to change anybody, But I can help those that want something different then this shoebox mentality. If that shoebox mentality is your liking, then good on you. I am not for you.

Thanks for mentioning my name, Cheers

Its kinda a, If the shoebox fits, then wear it, hahahahahahahahahaha. I just wish I would have included this is the above post. dang it.

I've also wondered Tim, how to keep even a 6' enclosure at 40 degrees on one end and 95 at the other end? I understand about a 95 degree hot spot but doesn't that hot spot dictate the ambient air temps? I really think this is a POINTLESS discussion because the people who do this won't shed any light on their caging methods. Another thing, they are colubrids! Pretty hard to kill regardless of temps. I've seen them kept in cold basements year round but still thrive. Steve

"I've seen them kept in cold basements year round but still thrive."

If that is the case.....they are NOT thriving they are just living.....There is a difference.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Sorry John. My mistake I should have said surviving. Anyhow, it just shows you that colubrids are practically indestructible. So to argue about trying to maintain a hot side of 95 and a cool side of 45 is stupid. Not everyone lives where their kingsnake came from.

that most certainly isn't the point, most people don't live where their king snakes come from. Even those that do probably find that providing both a humidity and thermal gradient are beneficial, as well as a light/dark area, hence, "hide". These posts are beneficial in one way, that I know of, it is to let us all know that there are many ways to keep kings, and that many ways have been/are being tried/retried. All that matters at the end of the day/season/year is whether the snakes are thriving. A good batch of eggs and a good feeding response are just a few indicators. I like to see my snakes prowling about, I put a new "toy" in once in a while, I see stimulus. Do I have great years all the time, of course not, I had the $hittie$t year ever breeding, and that was my not being able to provide them with what I had previously and also not pairing animals at all. But rest assured, I will go full tilt boogie on it this/next year. In the end, it is all just what we make of it, if you are happy with your keeping, keep on keeping on, if not, change it or give it up.
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Todd Hughes

how to keep even a 6' enclosure at 40 degrees on one end and 95 at the other end? I understand about a 95 degree hot spot but doesn't that hot spot dictate the ambient air temps? I really think this is a POINTLESS discussion because the people who do this won't shed any light on their caging methods.

My snake room can get down to freezing in the winter. Therefore it is no problem turning up the heat on one end and the air temps are still close to 40-55F.

The snakes still choose the cold end unless they just ate.

Now if you heat the room temps to 75f year round then you might have a problem with giving choices and getting the aniamls to cycle. which i am sure is a problem in places like AZ and S. Florida.

But in most parts of the country getting cold enough is not a problem. Just use some common sense. For instance if there is snow outside move the snakes from your indoor heated room into a cold room like your garage. then turn on the heat tape. The snakes do the rest.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, my point is why bother keeping them at temps of summer on one end and winter on the other end? I understand your going to say to give them the choice but I don't think snakes in the wild go through that type of temp change in a 3'x2' area. Why not just brumate them?

>>Now if you heat the room temps to 75f year round then you might have a problem with giving choices and getting the aniamls to cycle. which i am sure is a problem in places like AZ and S. Florida.

Try South Texas...The hottest place in the nation....Not that dry heat like Arizona.....It is hot and humid year round here.....100F and 80% humidity....Feels like 115 or so......

115 and dry is nothing......

We don't "heat the room temps to 75F year round" we cool them to 72F year round and provide a hot spot of 90F...or at least I do......18 degrees of gradient.......

Then I brumate them at 45 to 55 degrees in the winter.....When it is 80 or 90 outside.......The climate here will not do it for the snakes......My snakes are high elevation snakes....It gets cold in their natural habitat in the winter.....It is NOT cold here in the winter.....I think we hit freezing once every two years.........
How much do they eat in the wild during winter months....I don't know and no one else does either.......How much sun light do they receive? Again....no one knows........

Dark and cold works....In pairs too......

I don't have a bunch of getula that any 16 year old can get to reproduce......lol.....gotcha again Rainer.....

You know I am just joking with you in that last sentence........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

well, I live down here where John does and I do things different than he does, does he have more success, yes, does he keep wild caught snakes? Not more than a few. I keep almost all locality snakes from our region and the southwest, with a couple oddballs thrown in. I am working a different angle on my snakes than John. Do we keep the same species, you betcha, for the most part and both of us have kept almost all our natives at one time or another. I never kept cal kings before and produced them the first time I tried, no big deal to most, but I have been able to do this with every species I have had mated pairs for. longnose, glossies, garters, waters, all the rats, all the gophers, next year the pines, all the kings except floridana, lol, which I do not have a mated pair I care to breed, goini, easterns, you name it. Well, not moles, but that's coming too. I'm just saying that it is each an experience for the individual. If you don't like the results, change something. If you do, keep it or move on, change it some more. I like subocs and have good results there, but alterna are hard for me to figure out. same place, same microhabitats, same prey items available, but somethings different. I can provide them with what I read about/experience, and one is good the other is not. Go figure. Also, I have tried a whitewall pair of siblings and got a kill you muthah attitude from them both,watched them like a hawk, failed breeding attempt, put the sib calkings together and didn't even worry about it, never looked at them, finally noticed multiple hookups, left them together for a month, removed the male, seven perfect eggs, seven perfect babies. Go figure.
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Todd Hughes

Actually Todd.....I honestly had a terrible year.....
I think there were negative effects (infertile eggs) due to the reacclimation of alot of the snakes I bred.....
Most of them were used to being kept at a higher elevation with a dryer climate......Then they got shipped down here to a hot and muggy climate at sea level.........
I also think that after being here for over a year they will acclimate tehmselves and produce fertile eggs next year......I also plan on bringing my males out of brumation earlier than the females next year......And a longer brumation period.......

Funny thing is all my getula bred just fine for me, except the MBKs......But the MBKs were hatched in 2008 and just didn't want to breed, but my 2008 WW Hets figured out what to do......

To me getula are the easiest to get to reproduce.....Montane & Mexican Kings require more than getula.....Just an opinion as I have successfully bred all getula except for easterns and goini and I have successfully bred all mexicana except for greeri....
Pyromelana and Zonata are my next attempts......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I am thinking along the same lines as you John, all the hoggies didn't breed, and I slugged out pretty bad this year. I think the humidity had a factor in this, my fault, but something I didn't consider.
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Todd Hughes