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Practice what you preach...

Nokturnel Tom Aug 14, 2010 04:47 PM

Yeah, I actually do.
In the case of egg binding... one of what I feel is a very important female in my collection became eggbound. A first time breeder, many of you would probably have waited another year, I do not think like that so I put her mate in and they bred.

She was really plump and looking great, and then came the first 2 eggs. One slug, one good looking one, both total banana shaped elongated HUGE eggs. I saw at least 2 left.

I have posted on here many times mentioning first year female being a pain, as sometimes the eggs dont always come out at once. I am also a big fan of "leave them alone" in many aspects of snake keeping. I chose to do just that.

Days passed, she would not eat, and was in and out of the box. Right before I left for my 2 week vacation I found her beneath the nest with another huge egg. One egg was left, and it looked even bigger inside her than the others.

I chose to leave her alone even though I was a bit worried. Towards the end of my trip my snake sitter emailed me to say she had passed the last egg.

No massaging, no forcing, no poking her with needles to drain the yolk, no soaking in water... none of that. I always recommend leaving them alone and many are quick to say how wrong it is. Sure sometimes you may lose and things may go downhill into the toilet... but sometimes time will allow things to work themselves out.

The female is fine, and next year she should do better.

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Replies (26)

DMong Aug 14, 2010 05:00 PM

Yes, there are some definite good points there. I have noticed over the years that many folks are too fast to start forcefully palpating the snake, only to rip her uterus from the walls of her body and force it out along with any egg(s), and ask..."uh, hey, what is this soft papery looking substance that is still attached to the egg(s), is that normal??.

More people have permanently ruined females this way than if they just left them alone for a while, or after a substantially long while, go to a "QUALIFIED" snake vet for better assistance with it.

I have been pretty lucky with this happening so far, but as you said, you certainly don't want to start doing stuff to the female before she actually needs the help.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

BobS Aug 14, 2010 07:49 PM

Glad it worked out for you Tom.

bluerosy Aug 14, 2010 08:50 PM

More people have permanently ruined females this way than if they just left them alone for a while, or after a substantially long while, go to a "QUALIFIED" snake vet for better assistance with it.

yes i agre. And i agree with Toms post. Most people lack the experince on how to palpitate and then damage is done. Also by attempting palpitaion the eggs will have even less chance of passing later on.

I knwo when to plapitate and it is not something i reccomend. I made my mistakes and learned from them. First by not having the experince to get the eggs out on the first attempt the insides become swollen and you get prolapsed oviducts. Even if you get the egg to the vent then there is a layer of sking surrounding the egg which does not allow it to come out. That is where an "experinced" vet comes in. And unexperinced vet will perform surgery. And experincd vet uses a stream of water 9for lack of a better tem) to open the areas where the egg gets stuck and removed them without surgery.

Bottom line. leave the snakes alone. if you think the eggs will not pass because maybe the snake looks like she is weak, dehydreted etc and there is no hope then it won't hurt to try. But it takes a green thumb to recognize the potential of the individual snake to pass the eggs. So I SHOULD NOT EVEN MENTION THIS! Usually if they have enough strength they will pass them in a weeks time. If they are weak and debilitated then they will go downhill and not be able to pass them on their own.
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www.Bluerosy.com

DMong Aug 14, 2010 09:59 PM

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DISCERN Aug 14, 2010 06:34 PM

Great post! I highly agree!

Letting nature handle the scenario as much as possible, without any outside interference to add even more stress, to me, only makes sense.
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Genesis 1:1

CrimsonKing Aug 14, 2010 07:07 PM

I did that too. Almost exact scenario. I was out of town. First time I've ever lost a female to egg binding.
Not a good feeling.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

bluerosy Aug 14, 2010 08:54 PM

I did that too. Almost exact scenario. I was out of town. First time I've ever lost a female to egg binding.
Not a good feeling.

Did she pass any eggs?

if so how long before she died?

or did she never lay any eggs at all?

How many eggs were inside of her when she died?
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www.Bluerosy.com

CrimsonKing Aug 14, 2010 10:05 PM

yes, she laid one that eventually hatched. Then a slug, and probably had 6 in her when she died about 2 weeks later.
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Bluerosy Aug 15, 2010 07:35 AM

What kind of king was it? Was she a young or mature adult? Was she big or small?
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www.Bluerosy.com

CrimsonKing Aug 15, 2010 09:02 AM

mature adult 36"-40" nigrita.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Bluerosy Aug 15, 2010 09:43 AM

mature adult 36"-40" nigrita.

A healthy large nigrita dying with only 6 eggs in her? That has me stumped!

My only other guess would be there was something else wrong with the snake that caused her to die.
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www.Bluerosy.com

CrimsonKing Aug 15, 2010 10:35 AM

6 in her plus the three she passed. Typiocal clutch for her
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

brhaco Aug 15, 2010 08:10 AM

Total agreement here as well. In most cases by far, surgery or other intervention is unnecessary and counterproductive. Here at the ranch, Ron (Tremper) and I perform our own surgeries in the rare case (less than a half-dozen in the last few years, out of hundreds of breeders) that it is truly necessary-but we have all the equipment (anaesthetic, scalpels, sutures, etc.) anatomical knowledge, and experience to do so. Haven't lost a patient yet.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Bluerosy Aug 15, 2010 08:27 AM

You work for Ron Tremper?

What do you think about the panicur and Flagyl products he is marketing? Are they the real thing or just the names "Flagyll and pancur" used for something completly different? Is it more like a natural holistic type med?

I was hoping you could clear up some confusion on these products. because if it is the REAl Panicur and Flagyll I am going to buy some to have on hand.
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www.Bluerosy.com

brhaco Aug 15, 2010 09:54 AM

Well, I'm not "employed" by Ron, but we cooperate on several breeding projects, and I house my collection at his ranch.

Yes, his product is the real thing-but if you find some, snap it up. Jungle has had a shakeup, and it may be a while before it is available again. It's a great product- I've used it on wild caught redear sliders, and the day after eating those pellets the water was literally filled with dead parasitic worms!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Bluerosy Aug 15, 2010 10:54 AM

Yes, his product is the real thing-but if you find some, snap it up

The Flagyll is what i am looking for. I am used to the liquid form from mexico as that is easier to make doses and can just be squirted into a snake with an eye dropper.

So you are sayoing his Flagyll is the real thing. Then i will have to order some. Will he have any at Daytona?
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www.Bluerosy.com

brhaco Aug 15, 2010 11:08 AM

Unfortunately, the vagaries of the industry are such that Ron, though he helped develop the products, has no role in the actual marketing or distribution-so no, he won't have any at Daytona.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Bluerosy Aug 15, 2010 11:10 AM

Okay thanks.

So i have to find another source that distributes them. Are you saying they are hard to get right now? Do you know anybody i should contact to get te flagyll?
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www.Bluerosy.com

brhaco Aug 15, 2010 12:02 PM

I would check out LLL, Big Apple, etc-they may still have it available.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

DMong Aug 15, 2010 01:19 PM

You can often find pure Panacur(fenbendazole)at feed stores, or places like "Tractor Supply", or other farm/livestock places too. It is generally sold as "horse dewormer" and comes in paste form in large tube syringes. I just got a huge tube from a buddy, and it is in a very convenient small caulk-type tube with a resealable cap, and it will last almost indefinitely stored below 77 degrees, or better yet in the fridge.

The Flagyl in this 25 gram tube is 1 gram = 100 mg. of metronidazole, and since 50-100 mg./per kg. is a typical snake dose, a 1/2- to 1 gram of this doses a 1000 gram snake(2.2 lbs.). Do the proper math break-down, and you can figure the dose for any sized snake you have from there. This stuff is known to be very reptile friendly, and you would really have to be WAAAAY off for any ill affects to occur.

Flagyl(metronidazole) is a bit tougher to find without a vet prescription, but even that can be found here and there at aquarium stores. It is marketed as a antibiotic fish tank additive to be sprikled in the tank water, and although it is very expensive for the actual amount you might get in a little packet or cylinder, $8 or $10 bucks is nothing compared to having to go through a vet to get it. The amount I got in a small cylinder in powdered form was sufficient for many countless doses regardless anyway.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

bluerosy Aug 15, 2010 06:33 PM

Hey thanks Doug!

I know about the panicur paste from the horse supply stores.I have that on hand. It is the Flagyll I am having a hard time getting. I tried the fish store stuff aas well as the pill form form percription. I didn't like it neither. The stuff from Mexico that comes in a liquid form seems to work really well. I used to have this on hand when i bred rosy boas. It is almost a must to have if have more than a few rosys in your collection.
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www.Bluerosy.com

DMong Aug 15, 2010 07:33 PM

Sure man,....

Yeah, the 250 mg. pills are pretty much sort of guess-work on dividing to the right portion unless you weigh the pill on a super sensitive digital jewelers scale. And the stuff doesn't dissolve for crap regardless of what you do either..LOL!

I just mix it up after crushing in a little shot glass and suck it up with a thin SS tube attached to a small syringe, then shake a bit, and down the ol' hatch..LOL!

Yeah, the liquid is great and very convenient to mess with for sure.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Aug 15, 2010 10:23 AM

" Haven't lost a patient yet"

That is fantastic to hear!!

Did any(or all) of those few go on to successfully breed and lay anytime afterwards, or did you figure, better not take the chance on jeopardizing them ever again??

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

brhaco Aug 15, 2010 10:28 AM

Two different pueblans have gone on to breed successfully, with no egg binding. A couple more are still in recovery-I give them two seasons after surgery before even thinking about breeding attempts. Much depends on what we find once we open them up. We did an alterna last year which had a number of old, mummified ova adhered to various portions of one oviduct-I'm doubtful she will ever breed successfully.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

DMong Aug 15, 2010 10:33 AM

That's great!. Yes, I fully understood that any situation could/would be quite different for any individual snake and would certainly depend on many variables and what exactly you discovered inside the female, once opened.

Congrats again on those successes!!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jlassiter Aug 15, 2010 05:59 PM

Coincidentally.....I just had my Axanthic female pass a stuck egg from her second clutch this year.......She laid the other slugs 5 days ago but this one was much bigger.....

I had a calking female hold 2 slugs one whole year and she passed them with a fertile clutch the next year.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

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