Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm proud to say I have produced my first ever San Pedro Martir agalma. Not only is the one that's already out great looking, but look at the head of that other one that's popping out. What is it? I guess I'll have to wait until the whole snake comes out, but I think it might be axanthic.

Juarez Wonders

How exciting! Like having Christmas presents that open themselves! LOL!

WOW!!!!!....

It certainly looks like an axanthic/anery to me too from what I can see. I don't see the SLIGHTEST trace of any pink/red pigmentation so far in the head!. And if it did have any super-light pinks in it later as it emerges, it would certainly have to be a very extreme form of hypo-erythrism being displayed.

Congratulations on those beauties, and as far as the one goes, well, all I can say is........GEEEEEEEZ!!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.........and seeing a pinkish hue from it's blood being visible through it's thin body surface definitely doesn't count as "pigment"..LMAO!!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'm speechless....

Juarez Wonders

>>I'm speechless....

WOW.....maybe Hypoerythristic then.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>I'm proud to say I have produced my first ever San Pedro Martir agalma. Not only is the one that's already out great looking, but look at the head of that other one that's popping out. What is it? I guess I'll have to wait until the whole snake comes out, but I think it might be axanthic.

I would say anery rather than axanthic for a tricolored snake.....
Xanthin is responsible for yellow pigment.....
Erythrin is responsible for red pigment....
If it is lacking erythrin (red) it is anerythristic......
Just my take on it.....an opinion with some logic...LOL

Very cool....I can't wait to see it after it emerges.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Hey Allan,

great news! These martir genetics are just weird, and it will be interesting to see if it is hypo-erythristic or anery. Either way, very cool indeed. We need better pics though, LOL. But seriously, if it doesnt turn pink or orange or peach or have any hint of erythricites (visually), then we're talking anery buddy. Booyahhh.....
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

"Just my take on it.....an opinion with some logic"

Simply put, that is basically my take as well John.

I have done a fair amount of research regarding chromatophores in the past, and many things regarding these and other pigment cells are definitely not quite as straight-forward as many might think however.

For instance, xanthophores(from the greek root word "xanthos" meaning yellow) are actually the chromatophores that produce red and yellow pigments known as pteridines. These may vary in color from pure yellow to pure red, as well as intermediate shades. Xanthophores possessing a predominantly red coloration are referred to as erythrophores containing pigment known as "erythrin".

Xanthophores also retain yellow to reddish pigments contained in the diet in the form of carotenoids. Carotenoid retention continues throughout life, and intensity of pigmentation varies based on the quantity and types of carotenoids contained in the diet. Additionally, the animals' genetic predisposition towards and ability to store carotenoids will affect appearance.

Also, the so-called "anerythristic" Hondurans(or at least some specimens) that still display a pink hue when mature would probably be better referred to as very hypoerythristic animals since there doesn't seem to be an absolute total lack of erythrin in the epidermal layer. This is something that has been debated for some time as well by many people in the milk/king hobby especially.

I have seen a couple 100% genuine Sinaloan specimens that seemed to be TOTALLY anerythristic from what I saw, and definitely were not from the more common lines that hatch out a more orange pumpkin coloration, then fade some more as they mature. These actually HATCHED totally void looking exactly the same coloration as many "anery" Hondos do. And these few specimens I saw had ZERO Honduran influence whatsoever! I saw a het for this mutation right next to the anery individual, and they were absolute carbon copies of each other, minus the coloration of course..LOL!

Anway, yeah, I'm totally with ya here, axanthic literally does mean total lack of yellow, and anerythristic definitely means no reds, then the term hypo-E will always baffle us when it becomes a certain degree of coloration one way or the other too. And hypomelanism will always be puzzling when it gets to the stage of being what is commonly termed T-plus, and on and on...LOL!

I think there will always be so many things about the way these pigment cells truly operate, and the complex way they can interact with each other that it will leave our heads totally spinning to be honest..LOL!

I have found over the years that the more one learns about certain complex things like genetics, the less one actually "knows". But it is a very interesting ride wherever it may take some of us..LOL!

Yeah, I know, sorry for the long shpeel, but some things are simple to explain, and some definitely aren't as you already know..LOL!

the term anery splendida has always made me go...huh???, since when does a splendida display any red pigment..LOL!

Anyway I think my point REALLY is that many people tend to simply call things whatever "seems" to make sense, but hardly ANYONE really knows the true dynamics of why and how alot of this chromatophore stuff actually works, I think that is VERY safe to say here..........uh, now my head hurts..LOL!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I was just about to say the same thing....word for word... hehe

Yeah, I know..LOL!,... lots of big word MUMBO-JUMBO there for sure!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug,

Not to pick on you I just see that you know more about this than others so i want to see your take on this.

To me the matir Agalma that just hatched out should be called an axanthic.

Would you say the bluish axanthic brooks with black eyes are true axanthics? if so, what do you think about the anery floridas, are they true anerys? ame with the corns, would you call those anerys?

Whenever i see that buish morph in other snakes i always think axanthic. When i see the other dull more pigmented type it is anery.

I guess my point is this. Since hybridizers have been crossing spp there seems to be a lot allelic traits is animnals found far apart. So if you breed an axanthic brooks to a tricolor milk and then breed the offspring back and get a tricolor reccessive does it become an anery? Or should the anery and axanthic traits not be named by how much red, yelow or orange and animal has?

I think it would be easier and better for herptoculture to call a certain recessive trait what it is and not let the phenotype of the animl marr its description. It just causes less confusion.

Also in Bechtels book he has a picture of a tricolor (I forget what kind) he calls axanthic and not anery.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

I think Rainer fell asleep while reading your post Doug.....lol
A normal phenotype would have to show yellow to be axanthic......

If the normal colors are red, black and white and now the red is pink then it is hypoerythristics.......

A true example of anerythrism is the black gap alterna where the red/orange is totally absent and replaced with no pigment at all.......white......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think Rainer fell asleep while reading your post Doug.....lol
A normal phenotype would have to show yellow to be axanthic......

A true example of anerythrism is the black gap alterna where the red/orange is totally absent and replaced with no pigment at all.......white......

No I didn't fall asleep reading Dougs post. But i think you fell asleep reading mine. LOL!

i have been preaching what the anery and axanthics are supposed to mean for many years. Doug knows it is a favorite subject of mine and this time I am just adding a new twist to what I previously preached. Probably since before most of you even heard the term anery and axanthic i have been debating it.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Well.....It's hard to teach old dogs new tricks.....LOL

I think Doug explained it best and it is the way I have learned it.....

Anerythristic means to totally lack red pigment.....
An Axanthic animal can be Anery but an Anery cannot be Axanthic.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Anerythristic means to totally lack red pigment.....
An Axanthic animal can be Anery but an Anery cannot be Axanthic.....

I know what it means. or at least its original description. The problem i see is when these descriptions were first made it did not know or think through the future of morphs.

So what you ar saying axanthic and anery can be exactly the same trait and be compatiple. What changes the term from anery to axanthic is just lacking red. So if produce some "anerys" from high red stock floridana and as they grow they gop through an ontogentic lightening as normals do. They then becaome axanthic later in life?

What i am saying is they should be two different types of recessive traits (anery and axanthic) and not just because the phenotype is most red or yellow.

Another exaple is oreo pueblins or Jerrys black and white zonata. So if the red is missing on one hatchling it is a axanthic and the ones that have red are anerys?

It is mans job to name and rename animals and gentics. After all it is not the constitution of the United States we are talking about here.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>Another exaple is oreo pueblins or Jerrys black and white zonata. So if the red is missing on one hatchling it is a axanthic and the ones that have red are anerys?
>>
>>
>>It is mans job to name and rename animals and gentics. After all it is not the constitution of the United States we are talking about here.

Oreo Pueblans just lack pattern not the pigment.....
Just as the Applegate special pyros are not hypomelanistic because they just lack pattern not pigment.....
Just as "no black" thayeri are not hypomelanistic because it is just a lack of pattern not pigment.....
Just as the first "hypo" cornsnakes should have never been called hypo due to the fact they lacked the black pattern not pigment....

The pigment must be reduced or replaced with no pigment.......
I keep bringing up the TRUE anery Alterna from Black Gap animals....the red/orange is absent and replaced with white....
No one calls them axanthic as there is no yellow to be absent in the first place.....

Jerry's Black and White Zonata have some pink on them at birth then that disappears......They are Hypo-E then go to Black and white. I don't think they are anery unless the pink is replaced by melanin rather than the pattern fading....

My Hypo-E Mex mex hatch with all red that fades to pink then disappears over time.....I still have no idea what to call them except for Hypo-E because that is what they express for the longest time......LOL

And yes.....We are just men naming and renaming so we can classify things in a neat and orderly fashion.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Well maybe Jerrys black and whites were a bad example. i did not know they had red on them at birth.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>Well maybe Jerrys black and whites were a bad example. i did not know they had red on them at birth.

They don't have red on them at birth....Just small areas of pink.....But I think Jerry has talked himself blue about this on occasion......

Dude....they are a great example for another topic though....LOL
There is something definitely "different" going on with them.....

As there is with the Hypo-E Mex Mex......
A Hypo-E Mex Mex is like owning three different snakes in one.....Normal, Hypo-E and Anery.......

Truce.....

So...are you going to Daytona or not Rainer???????
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

So...are you going to Daytona or not Rainer???????

I am not driving. I am flying down, well actually I'm tring to fly down..

For me to go to Daytona I need someone to drive up a couple baby rack units up to Atlanta for me. So Far i can't find anyone who is coming down from my area. So it does not look like I am going.

almost everybody I called (from this reptile retarded state) is either not going this year or is sharing a ride with someone else to share gas money.

IF ANYONE READING THIS IS HEADING UP NEAR ATLANTA AND HAS ROOM IN THE BACK OF A TRUCK OR SUV FOR A COUPLE SHELVES AND SNAKES LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i AM FLYING BACK FROM DAYTONA AND CAN PICKUP ANYWHERE.

hElP pLeAsE~~!!!!!~~
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

John, you are trying to point out things to me that I already fully understand. I KNOW what the terms mean for what colors, and have for a long, long time. Everything is not always so simple. Again, I agree with the basic terms commonly used.

pink pigment = hypoerythrism...simple!

no red = anerythrism......simple!

What about all the other stuff in the hobby, or intermediate combinations of colors??, hardly anybody at all actually knows what really goes on as far as what is actually responsible for making the colors we see in the pigment cells, I guarantee it.

All that long-winded post was not necessarily about that specific agalma's genetics, but it definitely was about the dynamics of the way chromatophores can work.

Can anybody explain to me why the anerythristic Honduran also has ZERO yellow too??

Even if it is really a "hypo-erythristic animal, I can even see that, but what about the missing yellow in the center ring of the triad,...huhhh???..LOL!!

yep, that's right, nobody knows!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>John, you are trying to point out things to me that I already fully understand. I KNOW what the terms mean for what colors, and have for a long, long time.

Doug........ My reply was to Rainer......not you........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>John, you are trying to point out things to me that I already fully understand. I KNOW what the terms mean for what colors, and have for a long, long time.

Doug........ My reply was to Rainer......not you........

I undertand them to. Heck probably everything Doug knows he probably learned from reading my posts..

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

It's okay Rainer.....You're okay in my book..........ha!

I think Floridana genetics are much more complicated than a tri colored king.......

So....I choose tri colored kings.....LOL.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"Heck probably everything Doug knows he probably learned from reading my posts"

LOL!! That would be a simple case of "the blind leading the blind", I guess that would explain why I get so confused!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>John, you are trying to point out things to me that I already fully understand. I KNOW what the terms mean for what colors, and have for a long, long time. Everything is not always so simple. Again, I agree with the basic terms commonly used.
>>
>>pink pigment = hypoerythrism...simple!
>>
>>no red = anerythrism......simple!
>>
>>What about all the other stuff in the hobby, or intermediate combinations of colors??, hardly anybody at all actually knows what really goes on as far as what is actually responsible for making the colors we see in the pigment cells, I guarantee it.
>>
>> All that long-winded post was not necessarily about that specific agalma's genetics, but it definitely was about the dynamics of the way chromatophores can work.
>>
>>Can anybody explain to me why the anerythristic Honduran also has ZERO yellow too??
>>
>>Even if it is really a "hypo-erythristic animal, I can even see that, but what about the missing yellow in the center ring of the triad,...huhhh???..LOL!!
>>
>>yep, that's right, nobody knows!!
>>

Yep... you are right.....There's other weird stuff like how the white sided or white wall trait messes with the dorsal pattern.....

And how the original white wall Holbrooki had a normal dorsal pattern......

And is this partial leucism.......Pied......

I agree we are all on the same page......
there are just some other pages no one really knows about yet......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Some of this stuff, and TONS of other genetics will have people scratching their heads raw for eternity..LMAO!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Man, those are all great questions, and I am not real sure at all about having the answers to all those either to be honest. Sort of goes back to what I said about "the more you seem to find out, the less you actually "know" many times..LOL!

That Martir agalma is sort of tough to tell exactly from the pic, plus it still has to shed too, so it could look a bit lighter now than what it might look like later on.

Xanthophores can affect the way reds AND yellows look to us, so alot of it still puzzles the hell out of me. It seems that if reds and yellows are BOTH absent from what would normally be a tricolored animal, to me that would probably a very accurate example of "axanthism" being expressed. A snake that doesn't have any yellow to it's normal color scheme, but only red,and black/gray then the red is removed, this seems to fit the term "anerythristic" very well. But here we have the word "seems" again..LOL!

It does "seem" to me that the bluish hued snakes(like the NE axanthics with dark eyes would be accurately called "axanthics", but the reds are normally displayed in tons of floridana as you know too, so this is not real absolute at all to me either. Then the so-called anerythristic morph has still got me puzzled there too. Could these both be just a slightly different form of the same exact thing??. I mean neither one has yellows OR reds either..LOL!. I have trouble thinking an animal is anery when when there might not be any red in the equation whatsoever. Even the very red brooks I produce as babies had a sibling female that had absolutely ZERO RED on her entire body as a hatchling,..not even a portion of one single scale!, but she did have the fairly typical yellowish/green crossbars and speckling. So as we both know there are many floridana that don't necessarily have to have any reds in their coloration. So what if THOSE specific animals started a line that didn't have any yellow?, what would they REALLY BE??.

Man, alot of the terms have me going WTF big-time in the hobby!..LOL!. Like the so-called "anerythristic splendida for example. Okay, they don't have any red to them whatsoever at any stage of their lives, so I can very safely assume that they cannot be anerythristic, because the very prefix of the word anerythristic begins with..."AN", and that means lack of, or NONE, and the rest of the word.."erythristic" pertains to red pigment. Put them together, and it means "NO RED", simple as that. The term "anerythristic" splendida makes zero sense, as it only consists of black/yellows/whites, NO red, so they HAVE to be AXANTHIC(no yellows/creams)to me, just black and white.

Even a hybrid example as you mentioned of an axanthic brooks x tricolor, then back-bred, then if any animals had any yellows/creams at all but no red, it would seem to fit the term "anerythristic" more accurately if it played-out that way. But if any animals had no reds OR yellows, I would again think that "axanthic" would be a better term.

But what is really weird is, how does a freakin so-called "anerythristic" Honduran fit into what the heck I just pointed out??..LOL! I mean, they have neither red(debatable with some)but no yellow either, so if they are really "hypoerythristic"(extremely reduced red), then WTF about them not having yellow in the middle ring of the triad??..ooooh my head is truly starting to hurt right about now, holy smokes man!!..LOL!!

I am guessing the bluish brooks that are called "axanthic" could very well be JUST THAT, but couldn't the duller, less contrasty ones we call anery's be just another type of axanthism too??....think about it, I do all the time, and it leaves me puzzled as all heck every single time..LOL!

I don't have Bechtel's book, but I would really like to see what type of milksnake he was referring to though.

I don't honestly think I answered any of your questions at all really, it just made me think real hard about the terms and what "might" be going on genetically, but me typing all this guess-work of mine makes me just as unsure as I was when I started the post in the first place.

Yeah Rainer, this stuff is really way more complicated than we will EVER know in my opinion. Sometimes I almost wish I knew absolutely nothing about snakes, it would be so much easier on my head..LOL!

So after all this head straining crapola I typed here, I am really probably right back to the original place I first pointed out earlier, and might even know far less now than before I started typing any of this...LOL! I am afraid to even proof-read any of this because it probably makes little sense, so I won't..LOL!, I just rolled with some thoughts as I went for whatever it is worth..HAHAAA!!

Okay Rainer!, thanks for the headache bro!!..LMAO!!

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LMAO at your post.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

That was the long way around to the same conclusion.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

It was definitely the long confusing way alright!!..LMAO!!

When I read the beginning part of my post I immediately saw what you thought I meant about the yellows, and that part wasn't pertaining to the agalma at all. That was why you posted what you did about the terminology I already knew, so sorry about the misleading part there.

We definitely are on the same page on the agalma!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Wow, a whole dissertation on the finer points of axanthism and anerythirism. LOL. I'm just happy I hatched out something different and very cool looking When the animal has had its first shed, I will re-post it and let everyone on the board decide what type of gene it is.
Juarez Wonders

Yes, your agalma is definitely a sweet animal, whatever it may actually be..LOL!

I will look forward to seeing future pics for sure!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

congrats Allan, should have said that first, a great clutch!
-----
Todd Hughes

My hed feeels like puddy afta readin dos posts. Yup my hed hutz now.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

and I could not agree more!..LOL!

pigment cells(chromatophores) apply to every single snake on this planet, and to think all these colors and patterns(or lack of) are all understood is just plain ridiculous. Thing is, they have to be "called something", and THAT is where things can easily fall apart and become blurred in the biggest of ways.

I probably said it best just now with this, and could have avoided my huge headache while typing and thinking about the other previous drawn-out posts..HAHAHAA!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hi Doug (i was a herpetologist but now I'm an essayist) Mong,

You're right, this is a provocative post. It provoked this thought in me: Might not some of the species and subspecies we consider "wild types" and "not morphs" actually be morphs? Example: Given how much red and yellow appears in florida kings (I'll leave the details of brooksi vs floridana to smarter folks here) might not eastern kings be anerythristic morphs, animals whose evolution has now distinguished them in other ways as well, but whose phenotype could certainly be described as anerythristic?

I know some of you have found the occasional "high yellow" eastern king (or speckled, or splendida, for that matter): Maybe the wild type of those three species is an anerythristic (or, at least, hypoerythristic) animal, and those high yellow specimens are morphs. In other words, mutations can be additive as well as subtractive.

Thoughts? Other examples?

HAHAA!!,....yes, alot of stuff we see seems to fit perfectly with a known genetic term. Not just kings either by any means...ALL types of snakes of ANY kind. For instance, I've just recently seen a few brand new never seen ratsnake morphs from freak W/C individuals that are quite impossible to pin down with any certainty as to what mutation is really being displayed in these.

They could very accurately be called a few different genetic terms. But as to exactly what mutation(s), and what chromatophores are responsible for the particular look is virtually impossible to say. Not only that, the guy had two very distinctly different phenotypic looks from the same clutch from that one morph "greenish ratsnake" W/C mutant. Both types were totally off the chart as far as what the heck they really were, and were absolutely NOTHING alike either, but both were VERY much not normal. Could have been an extreme form of hypo, or a tyrosinase positive lavender, or a double mutation of some sort, or whatever.

This was pondered for a couple years by many different people and still no certain conclusion as to what exact mutation{s} were causing the look, so he just simply called them "moonshine" greenish ratsnakes because of the uncertainty of calling it something it wasn't as far as genetic terminology.

There is alot of this same type of thing that goes on with many other morphs in the hobby, but most of the time if it "resembles" something in the hobby that already has a term applied to it, and is already accepted, many times that name quickly gets accepted and gets slapped on the label and that is the end of it. But is that label always accurately depicting exactly which mutation is at work within the pigment cells?, or which chromatophores are actually responsible for the phenotype?. The answer to that has to be a definite NO!

The other examples you brought up also have some credence, are some really "normal" or mutations?.

Anyway, many of the folks that call certain things something without having any idea at all what causes it, or even the proper definitions of genetic terminology are all part of some of the flimsy terms we see and use today.

I see things at shows all the time that are so ridiculously inaccurate it makes me want to almost laugh in their face..LOL!

regards!, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

what color does brown consist of? I'd say both red and yellow are present so all kings could possibly have red in them, even splendida, the holotype is not the norm, sometimes, or I should say the prevalent color variation. Splendies have brown in them in a super huge range mis and east, I hear tell some of the floridana and easterns are that way too, coastal and highlanders.
-----
Todd Hughes

Hi Todd,...

Well, yes, I guess one "could" consider brown as having red involved in it, similar to a color palette having red added to black, but the fact that known T-negative amels of many of these types have absolutely zero red in them make me think that cannot be the case though. This seems to be pretty logical in my opinion. Now other forms of kings that normally display very visible and noticable purer reds in them, like many floridana for example, when a T-negative form is produced, it still displays the normal reds when only the melanin is removed. This is also one of the straighter forward morphs that fits perfectly with the term "amelanistic".

And as you said, many kings also involve yellows, and those yellows are still present in amelanistic examples, like the amel splendida, amel holbrooki, amel getula, amel nigra, etc..

Now if there is a double mutation involved, or possibly some certain forms of "axanthism" where the xanthophores are quite involved, it could certainly have an affect on both reds AND yellows. That was part of what I posted on last night about how little understood and involved those chromatophores can be at times. Reds and/or yellows can be affected with these. It's tough to go any further there because that is where things can get real foggy..LOL!

later bro!, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I want Mom and Dad back lol! Give something away to a friend and look what happens. You lucky bastard!! Congrats you are the first to produce a "pure" Axanthic Martir agalma!

PL

Hey Paul, you said the "pinky" never bred to a pure Martir animal...?.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

You're right Jeff. "Pinky never did breed to another Martir. You can call me or Allan for more detail. Personally I've felt all Martirs from my stock carry the axanthic gene as they all origionate from the same gene pool. Allan got very lucky! I wouldn't call his snakes hets though. I think a "pinky" can show up out of any Martir at anytime.

PL

Congrats. Those are beautiful. Axanthic and a visual Het?

Jason