Reptile & Amphibian Forums

PUBLIC OPINION (Chambersburg, Pennsylvania) 14 August 10 Owning an exotic snake is legal in Pa. (Jim Hook)
Owning an exotic poisonous snake is perfectly legal in Pennsylvania, as long as the species is not on the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species list.
The state prohibits possession of native venomous snakes -- the timber rattlesnake, copperhead and eastern massasauga. But ownership of a western Gaboon viper or other non-native venomous snake is OK.
"In Pennsylvania you do not need a license to own an exotic pet," said Greg Curry, who owns a python in Greencastle.
It's also OK by federal law.
"There's no real federal involvement with the possession of a snake unless it's endangered or there's evidence it was smuggled into the country," said Neil Mendelsohn, assistant special agent with the Northeast region of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
The agency may list exotic constrictors as "injurious species," which would restrict owning them, but there are no exotic vipers on the injurious species list. Constrictors have been escaping in Florida and reproducing.
Owning a poisonous snake carries an obvious risk. A person bitten by a viper is usually treated with antivenin. Most hobbyists don't keep the expensive antivenin on hand.
"Getting the proper antivenin to the person is a major issue," said David Long, a Shippensburg University biology professor who has a lifelong interest in snakes. "I think snakes are wonderful to keep as pets. I don't think venomous snakes should be kept by the average Joe. That's where machismo comes in. I can see the attraction, but I never thought it was worth the risk."
Zoos keep antivenin on the back door of their snake exhibits, he said.
Antivenin for a western Gaboon viper is not as expensive as antivenin for native snake species, according to Capt. Jeffrey Fobb of the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Venom Response Unit. He estimates that the antivenin costs less than $500 a vial.
Cobraman.com offers a gram of western Gaboon antivenin for $231.
The amount of antivenin required in treatment depends on the level of the snake's aggravation, Fobb said. The snake can control the dose of venom. An adult western Gaboon viper can have fangs 2 inches long and equally large venom glands.
Barry Painter Sr.'s snake was a pretty large viper, he said.
Western Gaboon vipers average 3 feet long.
A sizable bite will require about 20 vials of antivenin to treat, according to Fobb.
That $10,000 total is quite a bit less than the $185,000 it cost to treat a person struck by a native pygmy rattlesnake in Florida, Fobb said. The rattlesnake-bite victim was in the emergency room and intensive care unit for almost three days.
Antivenin for an exotic species typically is stored at a zoo or research facility that has that species of snake, Fobb said. It has a shelf life of two to five years. The Miami venom response unit stocks 49 types of antivenin.
"In the last 30 years interest in keeping reptiles as pets has increased," Long said.
Owning a venomous snake is graduating to the next level of the hobby, according to Curry. He has handled snakes for most of his 53 years and spent two seasons caring for reptiles at the Catoctin Mountain Zoo in Thurmont, Md.
"It's fascinating, but you have to be careful," Curry said. "It's never a good idea to buy something you're not familiar with, especially a viper."
Reptile shows are conducted across the country. Two are in Hamburg, where vendors set up in a field house and sell everything from cages to feeder mice to snakes. The shows in Hamburg are "hot" because venomous snakes are sold there, Curry said.
"Most animals (at the shows) are captive bred, so they don't take them out of the wild," Long said. "The Gaboon has been around a long time, and I'm sure someone is breeding them."
About 99 percent of snake bites in the U.S. are from pit vipers, such as rattlesnakes and copperheads.
The U.S. experiences fewer than 10 deaths a year from snake bites. Most fatalities are from eastern and western diamondback rattlesnake bites.
Fobb said the Miami venom response unit answered calls for 70 snake bites last year and 115 in 2008. Historically fewer than one percent are from non-native snakes, he said.
"Snakes are escape artists," Long said. "I almost always find them."
Long said one of the real dangers of having exotic poisonous snakes is that the neighbors probably don't know that a snake collector lives next door, and may not be wary enough for their children's safety.
Owning an exotic snake is legal in Pa.

PUBLIC OPINION (Chambersburg, Pennsylvania) 14 August 10 Chambersburg man bitten by snake listed in stable condition
Chambersburg resident Barry Lee Painter Sr., 38, who was bitten by a pet viper Wednesday, was listed in stable condition Saturday evening at Community General Hospital in Harrisburg, according to a hospital spokeswoman.
Pennsylvania State Police in Chambersburg reported Thursday that Painter was intoxicated and playing with a venomous western Gaboon viper at a home in Cumberland County when he was bitten.
It took hours to find antivenin.
Painter's family said he could still lose his hand.
After Painter was bitten, his friend Michael E. Keefer began driving him to Chambersburg Hospital, according to police. They apparently did not make it there before Painter lost consciousness.
Troopers met the car at a gas station off of Exit 20 in Greene Township.
Painter was taken to Chambersburg Hospital, then flown by helicopter to Harrisburg.
Chambersburg man bitten by snake listed in stable condition

"Long said one of the real dangers of having exotic poisonous snakes is that the neighbors probably don't know that a snake collector lives next door, and may not be wary enough for their children's safety."

No, the problem is that, realistically, a child is far, far, far more likely to be killed in someone's swimming pool, which the neighbors ALL know about.

Statements like these are simply scaremongering and the spreading of hatred for an identifiable group of people. Isn't this illegal?

"spreading of hatred for an identifiable group of people. Isn't this illegal?"

Hate Crime? Not much chance, but civil liabilities I would think so. Slander, libel, and defamation.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think BOTH apply. From Wikipedia:

"Hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.

'Hate crime' generally refers to criminal acts which are seen to have been motivated by hatred of one or more of the listed conditions. Incidents may involve physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters (hate mail)."

I would argue that reptile keepers are indeed a social group and that they're often the targets of "physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters (hate mail)."

Now I see. Yes, I agree. Thanks for bringing me up to speed on that one.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I don't like the scare mongering thing but on the other hand, as much of a freedom loving libertarian that I am I think limited regulations (ie hot permits) could be useful to an extent to protect us in the long run.
This idiot who obviously had no business owning a worm much less a Gaboon viper has potentially screwed things up for people in pennsylvania and possibly elsewhere as well.
On the other side of the coin however, as much as like the permit system for hots here in Fl. the requirement of having a 1000 hrs of experience with hots to get the permit is a bit of a hurdle and does cause people to ignore the permits system altogether and just get what they want out of state and be underground about it. Ironically enough this can cause the exact scenario the fear mongers are crying about and in fact it has here in fl.
The first year I was here (1995) there was an incident in Melbourne Fl. where somebody was working in their flower bed and encountered an albino cobra. they were fortunately not bitten. It turns out that there was some yahoo...unlicensed.....who was keeping a bunch of hots in his apartment in a makeshift rack system and if my memory is correct he had more than one snake escape from him. I certainly don't think permit systems are the answer to all potential problems and quite honestly considering how herpers have been thrown under the bus here in fl. with the roc thing I only reluctantly like the idea of permits, I also realize that the wild west attitude that has gone on for years with hots in pennsylvania could only end up hurting us all in the long run. That said the Northwestern Berks venomous show is a really cool show, if you haven't ever been to it you should go while you still have a chance.

I go to the Hamburg show everytime. The hot stuff ia always labeled and watched.

I DO miss the hot section at Daytona when Hank ran it.

I never cared for the hot section at Daytona. Wayne was too much of a nazi about people not bringing animals in which was stupid considering it was separate from the rest of the show and by the time you got to it you already had what you bought at the regular show when you were thinking of going into the hot section.
It basically made it too much of a pain in the asp to bother with for my taste. That rule was INCREDIBLY stupid considering people weren't going in there with animals they brought from home. They obviously bought them from his show. They damn sure aren't selling reptiles in deli cups at boot hill and main st. station.

Well, Wayne was like that because Wayne is Wayne, but Hank Molt (from what I understand) had to end it because of insurance issues.

Some "Best Practices" self regulation is in order. I think it is coming.
If we don't get our own house in order, Gomment will. I'd much prefer knowledgeable individuals with a stake make the calls, rather than some Bureaucrat with no interest or subject knowledge.
Just my opinion.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

PUBLIC OPINION (Chambersburg, Pennsylvania) 18 August 10 Snake bite victim says he'll get a goldfish next time (Jim Tuttle)
After he gets out of the hospital, Barry Painter Sr. does not plan to get another venomous pet snake like the one that bit him last week.
"I'll probably get a goldfish," Painter, 38, said Tuesday in a phone interview from his room at Community General Hospital in Harrisburg.
"The worse thing that can happen there is a goldfish tank could fall on me," he said.
Painter was flown to the hospital after his pet western Gaboon viper bit him twice on his left hand on the night of Aug. 11. In retrospect, he regrets keeping such a dangerous animal as a pet.
"It was a mistake, keeping a deadly snake like that. I had it for over four years. I got it when it was 8 inches long and it was almost 5 feet long when it bit me," he said.
A press release issued by Pennsylvania State Police in Chambersburg on Thursday said Painter was intoxicated and playing with the viper when he was bitten.
Painter contends that he was not intoxicated, and that he was attempting to remove the normally docile snake from its aquarium in order to change the bedding.
"I'm on state parole. I had no drugs or alcohol in my system. The only drugs I got in me now are the ones I got in me here (at the hospital)," he said.
Pennsylvania State Police spokesperson Trooper Tom Pinkerton said Tuesday that "information was provided to troopers at the scene that Mr. Painter may have been intoxicated."
He declined to discuss the nature of Painter's alleged intoxication. He said that in situations where a person is in need of medical treatment, it is "imperative" that responders know whether the person is intoxicated or if they have consumed drugs, including prescription medications.
Painter said he remembers being bitten and getting into his friend's car. He reportedly lost consciousness on the way to Chambersburg Hospital and woke up while police and ambulance crews were waiting for the helicopter to land.
He remembers parts of the flight to Harrisburg and arriving at the hospital.
"Everybody was so nice to me, they worked with me and stuff. I was in and out of it for the next eight to 10 hours. I was sick and vomiting, I had fevers and double vision. It was pretty bad," Painter said.
It took about four hours to get the right antivenin, which was flown to Harrisburg from the Philadelphia Zoo. Painter said he's had three rounds of antivenin and it appears he won't need any more.
Fearing that he would lose his hand, doctors performed emergency surgery to make a "tear drop" shaped incision and drain fluid from the badly damaged tissue, Watson said.
While it now appears that Painter will not lose his left hand, he is awaiting reconstructive surgery to repair the damage. He has been working with an occupational therapist twice a day to regain movement in the affected hand and arm.
There is no word yet on when Painter might be able to leave the hospital.
Since he was admitted, he has had plenty of people come to visit and wish him well. He thinks often about friends and family, and looks forward to his eventual release.
"I didn't realize how many friends I had until this happened. I can't wait to get out and thank them all," Painter said.
He said his girlfriend, Brittany Thomas, has been a big supporter throughout the ordeal.
"I couldn't ask for a better girlfriend than her," he said.
As Painter was being flown to the hospital, troopers responded to the Cumberland County home where the snake bit him. While searching for the animal, they allegedly found a bag of illegal drugs.
A police news release stated that the drugs were identified as Painter's. He says the drugs, psychedelic mushrooms, were not his.
"It wasn't my house. I have no idea where those drugs came from," he said.
Painter has not been charged in connection with the alleged drugs. Pinkerton said the investigation is ongoing, and police are still waiting on the laboratory's analysis of the substance in question.
"Once we get the results of the submitted evidence back, a determination will be made in consultation with the district attorney's office, whether or not to file charges," he said.
A professional tattoo artist for the past 23 years, Painter said he is right-handed.
"I'm just glad it wasn't my tattoo hand that got bit, or I'd pretty much be finished," he said.
The snake, which he was keeping at a friend's house, was Painter's only pet. He was once "a snake collector" with about 16 large snakes, including boa constrictors, pythons and a yellow anaconda.
Now a father of six, Painter said he gave away the large snake collection several years ago, when he started having children.
"They were big enough to eat my kids," he said.
Painter's mother, Jacqueline Watson, said a number of people have asked her in the last few days why her son had a venomous snake as a pet, anyway. While she is not an animal lover herself, she defends her son's exotic taste in animals.
"Why does anybody have a cat or a dog? Everybody's different. If everybody was the same, this would be a dull world," she said.
Snake bite victim says he'll get a goldfish next time

People drink and then drive. People drink and play rather casually with firearms. Bad things can happen. That's just a part of the Human experience (Human nature). We're not God's, although we sometimes think we are. We do make mistakes [in judgment].
The way I see it, the serious issue is when we fail to learn from our mistakes. That's the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

If he was in fact drinking this guy was a much bigger idiot than I already know he is. I have always had a strict rule about not working with large reptiles when I have been drinking and that was basically just large boids and water monitors. It's bad enough that "Jim and Miller" seem to like to show up with my drummer at practice I can't imagine playing with a gaboon viper with the mindset shown by my drummer in that state.
What I really loved was how he mentioned that he got rid of his boids because he was afraid they would eat his children, BUT HE KEPT THE GABOON VIPER.......HELLOOOOO.
definitely a candidate for the darwin awards, however I'm not sure that would be effective as he has already reproduced and passed on his genetic code.......someone should really talk him out of the gold fish, I'm not sure he'd be safe with a pet rock.