Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been having snake issues lately and it is scaring me. I had an adult male die recently. He got sick quick, began to poop wierd and then started to keep his mouth open and breath and wheeze and I mean this all happened in about 4 days. The day I was going to take him to the vet, he died.

Now I have two adult femaels that are housed together. One has recentl had a littler of babies. Both have seemed to be in good health. They both just shed yesterday and both have had a dramatic color change. The have become alarmingly pale. A ton of whit has shown up and the red has gone very very pale. I have heard of a snake changing colors after a shed but not two at the same time. Does anyone know what is going on at all?
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1.1 Motley het butter corns
0.1 Snow corn
0.1 Okeetee corn
1.0 Anery mutt corn
0.1 Stripe Ghost corn
0.1 Amelanistic corn het carmel
2.2 Colombian Redtails
0.1 Striped Colombian Redtail
1.0 Hypo Colombian Redtail
0.1 Hogg Island Redtail
1.3.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Anery Kenyan sand boa
0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa
1.1 Mexican Rosy Boas
2.0 Ball Pythons
0.0.1 Banded kingsnake
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
3.0 Bearded Dragons
3.0 Leopard Geckos
0.2 Snow Leopard Geckos
0.0.5 Sulcatas
and lots of fish

Those are some of the symptoms of toxic rodents.

Toxic Rodents? How do Rodents get Toxic, and how can you tell?

>>Toxic Rodents? How do Rodents get Toxic, and how can you tell?

You buy them from a certain source. The only source, in fact (that I know of), that has had issues with boas and their rodents.

Switch your rodent supplier immediately and throw away ALL of your rodent stock from your previous supplier. Unless the value of your collection is less than the value of your rodents - including sentimental value. Then, it makes sense to try your luck.

Unfortunately, KS TOS will not allow me to state who the source is - and I understand and respect that.

Just know that this supplier has REPEATEDLY, 100% of the time, been linked to boas (based on the incidents that I've followed up on - close to 2 dozen in a few years) who have regurged rodents that smell BEYOND RANCID, had FOWL smelling bowel movements that didn't look right, shed their skin, color, and scales off, and even died. I reiterate, in 100% of the cases I've inquired about, the supplier is ALWAYS the same. But, it can't be proven beyond a "shadow of a doubt" that the rodent is the cause of the problem. The reason is there is no "smoking gun" because the rodent has been digested AND no one ever thinks to test a regurged rodent to see if something's wrong with it - AND, we don't know what to test for! So it's a catch 22.

Fortunately for the rest of the community, only boas seem to be affected regularly although I've heard of issues with the more delicate pythons who take longer to digest as well. I also remember a BP changing color after a meal and a shed several years ago and didn't draw a connection at the time, but now wonder if the case was the same. I believe the animal was sold for a premium because of the color change.

I use a supplier who uses "trays" and vacuum seals ALL of their rodents and haven't had the issue described above since switching to them. I found the "trays" and vacuum sealing to be A NICE CHANGE.

I wish I could name the party directly and make this easy, but I can't. I'm doing my best to stay within the KS TOS and feel like I've done so within this post.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

OK, so we can't mention the name of the supplier with the bad rep, but I am just now looking for another supplier since my local one kind of dried up. So since we can't mention that supplier, can I at least get some recomendations for a good supplier that I could look into.

hi john ive heard of this in the past as well! hopefully you can let me know through privite e-mail who the culprit of the toxic feeder`s are? ive been using rodent pro. for many years with no ill effect`s but i would still like to know so at very least myself and close friends dont purchase these toxic rodent`s thats really scary! if you cant tell me who is selling them can you at least tell me rather it is or is not rodent pro? i greatly appreaciate any and all info regarding this situation as i belive from what you posted in the forum it warrent`s further investigating for sure. my next question is are the supplier`s of these toxic feeders aware of the potential problem and seriousness of the situation? i really dont understand people that sell something that they know is bad! no good will ever come of it & not to mention the folks who have a bad experience with something like this may never buy another rat or snake for that matter ever again i know i certainly wouldent especially being invested in very high end animals! thanks in advance for all youre help. regards brian l wilson

I really need to know how to tell? I am afraid that these two females will die. I don't know what to do.
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1.1 Motley het butter corns
0.1 Snow corn
0.1 Okeetee corn
1.0 Anery mutt corn
0.1 Stripe Ghost corn
0.1 Amelanistic corn het carmel
2.2 Colombian Redtails
0.1 Striped Colombian Redtail
1.0 Hypo Colombian Redtail
0.1 Hogg Island Redtail
1.3.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Anery Kenyan sand boa
0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa
1.1 Mexican Rosy Boas
2.0 Ball Pythons
0.0.1 Banded kingsnake
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
3.0 Bearded Dragons
3.0 Leopard Geckos
0.2 Snow Leopard Geckos
0.0.5 Sulcatas
and lots of fish

WEre they all fed from the same batch of rodents??
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Yes the one that died and the two that changed color were both fed from a new batch of guinea pigs from a big rodent breeder. I had one female eat a guinea pig from the last order I made and she has not shown any sickness at all. So I am very very worried that I have a ton of food and can't feed it. I have nothing to give my sick females to give them more strength.
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1.1 Motley het butter corns
0.1 Snow corn
0.1 Okeetee corn
1.0 Anery mutt corn
0.1 Stripe Ghost corn
0.1 Amelanistic corn het carmel
2.2 Colombian Redtails
0.1 Striped Colombian Redtail
1.0 Hypo Colombian Redtail
0.1 Hogg Island Redtail
1.3.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Anery Kenyan sand boa
0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa
1.1 Mexican Rosy Boas
2.0 Ball Pythons
0.0.1 Banded kingsnake
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
3.0 Bearded Dragons
3.0 Leopard Geckos
0.2 Snow Leopard Geckos
0.0.5 Sulcatas
and lots of fish

feed another meal from that same supplier.

Sick boas should be given time to get better on their own without stressing their entire system with digesting another meal, especially a meal from the same supplier.

This is an interesting case though, I've only heard of these symptoms from rats and mice - never from guinea pigs. But I suppose if the source of the rodents is the same (the source I'm thinking of does sell guinea pigs), it doesn't make any difference - just provides a twist.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

The supplier Jonathan will not mention is as big as it gets, and this much resembles the banking industry where the bigger you are the less you're allowed to fail and see protected by certain rules/laws. This supplier has caused nightmAre scenarios, and whatever animals you fed that survive this ordeal, will never be the same again by the way. What you must do is find a supplier that does not purchase and resell lab surplus. Only buy feeder rodents from a source that feeds, farms, and breeds rodents from their facilities to be offered to the pet comunity as feeders or pets. Think about it, lab rats, guinea pigs are known for experiments of all kinds. God only knows what has been Pumped, injected or fed into these animals that is being ingested by our boas. Personally I'm lucky in south Florida to have 3 large suppliers and I've visited their facilities to see they offer what they say and to look around for evidence in the shape of boxes from the major national surplus rodent sellers. I suggest be vigilant your animals cost you a lot in the form of money and time, and you become close to them so it's the least one should do..

in regards to lab surplus animals:

The rodents purchased by the resellers have NEVER been tested on. They are actually raised by companies who sell rodents to pharmaceutical companies for drug testing/experiments. Whatever is NOT sold to the pharma companies, is surplus. It's this surplus that gets sold to rodent companies who supply herpers.

Sometimes it can be a good thing, sometimes a bad thing. If the rodents are intended to be fed normally, they're perfectly fine to buy and feed to your snakes. But, if they're being fed (or bred) to be obese - that's a MAJOR problem as boas don't handle excess fat very well. What's the number one medical issue in the USA? OBESE PEOPLE. Which means most of the rodents are being raised to be sold to pharma companies doing testing for CV drugs, diabetes, etc., and the rodents are overly fat for their size.

Also, the supplier in question states that they DO buy extra rodents from various suppliers, but that those extra rodents are never mixed with their stock and sold to customers who order online or by calling. So, based on their statement, you're NOT getting lab surplus. I find it VERY hard to believe that this stock is not mixed. But, if we take them at their word, then it's THEIR STOCK causing the problem, not the lab surplus stuff! How ironic is that? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Like I said in another post - I switched to a company that "trays" and vacuum seals their rodents, and I haven't had a problem since.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

JB Thx for continuing to get the word out on this terrible situation.

You know the horrible experience I had with Lab Surplus Rats in '08, right about this time of year in fact.

Also I'd like to add Domestic Guinea Pigs are not a recommended Boa food source.

They are naturally much higher in body Fat Ratio or higher Fat index.

The High Fat or a certain type of fat appears to be the culprit
in several of these Toxic cases which kills our Boas.

Amakacin appeared to be helpful for a few of my Boas after that '08 issue.

Might be worth a try in any of these additional cases.

. . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Always ask your prospective rat supplier:

Do they personally breed and euthanize their own rats?
Do they subcontract out to smaller breeders?
What diet they feed their rodents?
DO they personally guarantee the quality of their stock??

A certain large rodent breeding facility that I don't buy from anymore subcontracts out breeding and euthanizing to several breeders, cannot tell me what diet is being fed because of this reason, and also told me they could not guarantee the quality of their product..... they did however tell me that if I had problems they would refund me the price of the rodents.....LOL but they didnt mention anything about reimbursing me for a snake that may die from ingestion of one of their rodents....

I currently buy from a local source that I can visually inspect.... but if not.. I also buy from JB's source that vacuum seals all the rodents on butcher trays.......
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM