Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is a very aberrant, basically "one-of-a-kind" male floridana I produced last year. Yes, it "looks" like a straight-up goini, but definitely is NOT!!

Anyone thinking that this cannot be possible should just ask Nick Mesa(foxturtle) if it can't happen once in a VERY,VERY great while in nature too. He just produced one like this recently from two W/C floridana parents with perfect floridana phenotypes from Hillsborough, county from parents captured NOWHERE NEAR goini range that is virtually a carbon-copy of this one. And as a hatchling they both look basically identical with the exception that his has a very bizarre mostly dark belly, and this one I have has a totally patternless solid yellow belly with the exception of it's subcaudal scales past the vent that have the typical dark stripes. This guy hatched with very solid red coloration, but as he is maturing he is really turning on some intense orang/yellow that will certainly later develop into a very intense yellow. His interband(blotches) are also speckling and lightening up very nicely too.

Looking at the two parents of this one, and all the other sibs of this specimen, as well as a couple other's hatched here this year too prove to me that this is just a very interesting freakish anomaly genuine floridana. And Nick's animal that was produced from authentic W/C floridana phenotypes in pure floridana territory just totally reinforces that this can be possible. Certainly not seen much by anyone, but very possible as these animals are living proof.

I actually think that freak anomalies like this could happen more often than thought in the wild, as these animal's phenotype would be quickly absorbed into the general genepool of all the other countless thousands in the area, and that phenotype would simply go totally unexpressed and melted in to what would be a more "normal" look.

~Doug

A sibling floridana to the above aberrant freak

Here are the perfect phenotype floridana parents that produced these.

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very neat and unique yearling male you have there! Not only is he smoking, he came from the best Brooks I have ever seen, anywhere, period!

Keep us posted with pics!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy!,.....

Yeah, I really think he is a special unique snake too, and couldn't be happier with him, as well as the other sweet specimens I have here. And of course the parents definitely ain't nothing to scoff at either..LOL!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Cool Doug!

I am not versed in the topic but is it possible since that can happen, that in other areas that pattern just proved out to be more succesful with the terrain and against predators and pro for prey that that is how the other subspecies came about?

I saw that with a special on Australias Reevesby Tiger snakes which are a variety of Tiger snake that was isolated on the island and is way more toxic than mainland Tigers and they are all BLACK insted of tiger striped like the mainland variety.

Also noticed that a lot of pics of Shinglebacks from different areas look so different from one another and very much resemble their terrain. ie. red, Black, cream etc.

Very cool looking animal as an individual!

Any hatchling pics of this one?

A pic just after hatching

one a bit later after shed

And the one from a couple months ago. You can see a big difference as he undergoes his ontogenetic transfomation with the more lightened basal speckling and stronger yellowing as was expected.

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

WOW no mistaking he was special. I'm looking forward to seeing this line develop.

Thanks!,.....yes, that is a big "10-4"!!

This line is definitely being propagated for the future!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Wow! I love seeing the transformation! Sick!!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Yeah I hear ya Billy!

When I look back at the older pics myself, the difference is pretty mind-blowing!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Bob!,..

Yes, nature is DEFINITELY stranger than fiction!..LOL!

I believe I saw that same program, or one VERY similar to it on those tiger snakes a long time ago too.

Stuff that happens in nature truly boggles the mind to be quite honest, and NOBODY can fully discount certain possibilities when it comes to genetics. I learned this a LONG time ago.

later!, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This type of pattern and color changes are normal when back breeding captives and selective breeding. In hybrids things jump on egenertaion. In other words breed a milk to a king and you get dumpy fugly looking specimens. The type you would expect from a hybrid breeding where it show the two phenotypes overlapped exactly like it is supposed to look.

But when you breed these SIBLINGs back to each other (and that is what you did Doug) you get these weird pattern abberancies and color inhancments and mutations. I have seen this over and over with the brooks kings . What else is weird you get a normal or Blasai looking one like you did and then that orange spotted one. Which makes crtain people jump to the conclusion there must me Aplachoicola or something else in it. But "those" people are uasually experienced fiild herpers who make these assumption. They only have experince (and lots of it) with wildcaught phenotypes. They have no clue about getntics and backbreeding sibling to one another. Heck most people don't know about the hybruid thing I mentioned above. But unless one has worked with hybrids you won't learn much about breing *normal varients either (*notice I did not use the word "pure"

So don't let those people ruin it for you Doug. those are 100% brooksi and totally amazing!!!!!!!!!!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Thanks Rainer!,....

And I definitely understand all that you mentioned too. Yes, if I were to simply post just the ONE animal without a full lengthy explanation of exactly WHAT folks were looking at, like you said, they would immediately presume it was a straight-up goini they were looking at, and that I was out of my mind for suggesting it is 100% floridana.

"So don't let those people ruin it for you Doug. those are 100% brooksi and totally amazing!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah, thanks bro!, you are spot-on about that, and nobody will ever convince me any different!

later, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

First VERY NICE adult brooks! They almost look hypo for God's sake! You should provide warning before posting them. I'm still seeing after images.

As for the freak. Simply put it is not a freak. He is just evidence that its the environment that selects the phenotype for these unique sub-specific forms. The genetic capacity is always there to through something different. Even when geography is obviously not an influencing factor it can happen. This is the main reason I get so torqued when self appointed "experts" go around slandering people because they think they know every potential a given population is capable of. What BS.

Given that, I still say the southern GA easterns have some goini in the wood pile. In that case proximity rules.

I think that should stir the pot sufficiently.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yeah Tony, I agree 100% on everything you mentioned there. Yes, out of the "norm" phenotypes can definitely pop up now and then for ALL types of snakes.

Also, I too see goini influence in MANY of the so-called Easterns from the southern Georgia area. Certainly not all, but definitely many!

We are definitely on the same page there!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Came from localities pretty well separated from any known goini influence... 80 miles. Goini influence only occurs in the lower/outer coastal plain. Once you get into the orange clay/sand of the inner coastal plain, the kings are all pure looking easterns.

You're right on there, Nick. BTW, that brooksi female I got from you last year is doing great.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I guess its a perspective thing. I never said they were not pure but in this case the only thing pure means is natural. Gene flow goes both ways. Easterns influence goini so the opposite is assured. As for a distance of 80 miles, I don't think that's very much in this type of habitat. I've found easterns in Virginia Beach that for all practical purposes look like OBX kings and you're talking well over 80 miles AND fairly significant geologic barriers. What you see today is a hodge-podge of remnant populations from ancestral stocks. A snap shot of populations as they blink in and out of existence over the eons. least that's how I see it.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I'm speechless, thats amazing!!! Would you be able to this apart from a goini? If so, whats the difference?
-----

Thanks Ross!, I appreciate the compliment there.

Well to be honest, there really isn't much of a difference meristic-wise or visually between this weird one and say certain examples of blaze goini, or a very red goini of any type period. Goini are so darn variable it is ridiculous, with some basically looking just like this one, and other goini looking absolutely NOTHING like this one...LOL!

The scale counts on goini and floridana are basically identical, although there can be some overlap in there specific scale counts on the venter and subcaudals, but the dorsal scales at mid-body of floridana are 21 or 23 at mid-body, ventrals 210 to 221,subcaudals 44 to 58, and supralabials 7-8, so nothing definite there either between the two subspecies except for the fact that goini is supposed to have only 21 scale rows at mid-body. That is the only real difference, and floridana can also have 21 OR 23, and a few floridana can have one more supralabial scale than goini now and then.

There are alot of goini out there that definitelt DO resemble this abnormal floridana for sure. I have seen many from all different sources. And also many man-made floridan x blaze goini crosses that look strikingly similar too. But this particular line develops into very yellow snakes which is not very indicative of goini, or very red type goini.

Here is the meristic data on goini for comparison with floridana......

goini

* dorsal scales 21

* ventrals 208-217

* subcaudals 45-55

* infralabials 9-10

* supralabials 7

I know this technical stuff can get old to read sometimes, but these are still the solid facts on these guy..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks a lot, Doug. This look showing up in Fl kings is very interesting, wild caughts producing it too. It will be interesting to see if it could reproduce another like its self.
-----

Yes Ross, I totally agree there. Very strange indeed!

He will definitely stay as a breeder along with several others here to see what happens with future breedings.

regards, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But this particular line develops into very yellow snakes which is not very indicative of goini, or very red type goini.

Vey good for bringing out a very good point. Though it is quite obvious to you and me, it has to be spelled out for others to see and understand...
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Yeah, this is really exactly why I had to go to such length explaining about this in my initial post. You and I both know that not all things are what they "seem".

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

About time you showed off these beauties, and that spotted one in particular! Those are the best yellow Brooks I've seen in ages!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!!, yeah Jorge, it has been a good while since I posted any of these guys pics, so I figured it is about time.

There are still some that I never have yet, but will eventually.

Thanks for the kind words bro!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Cool snake. It doesn't remind me of a "straight up" goini though.

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yeah, Blaze x brooks, etc..can have the same basic look too.

I see lots of crosses that look very similar.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Even if purely line bred there will be problems in the future discerning which are these "pure" floridana and which are crosses particularly once morphs are worked into the mix. But once they are mixed in exactly what does purity matter anyways...save it for another post. NICE SNAKE Doug!

....how's that rossalleni doin'?
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

That dude is really fabulous looking man!. I really wanted to capture my own female mate for him down in Homestead with Crutchfied and propagate them, but a few months ago I had to sit back and give some hard serious thought as to what I could really keep for future projects here. I wound up selling him to a lady at the Orlando Repticon show that REALLY appreciated what he was. She was looking all over for a really nice one, so I let her take the guy.

I showed her some real garbage examples while I was there too that didn't even come close!

Thanks again for giving me that nice one Mark, I really enjoyed having him for those couple years!

~Doug

And a king to keep in forum theme

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's an amazing animal. I bet you freaked when it hatched out.
-----
----------------------------------------------------------
Amy Claiborne

Don't let them take your wasted time. J.T.

Thanks Amy!,.....

Yeah, he was sitting there with some others when I opened up the box, and I was like,..HUH??..LMAO!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Awesome pair !!! too bad they dont breed true LOL

"Awesome pair !!! too bad they dont breed true"

Oh, but they do!, there are several here that look identical to the two parents when they where hatchlings, and will be just AS killer, if not MORE killer than the two parents!!!

I don't mind some cool variation at all, they are all "top-shelf"!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But I must say, it looks better in person!

I may get one of those from you some day!

-Rusty

Thanks Rusty!

Yep!, you definitely saw him and the other's first-hand!

I have some great info for you that we will both look into at Daytona man!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

WOW really cool looking King. Whats the history of the parents?

Magnus

Thanks!,....

Supposed to be line-bred from older south Florida stock from a well-known floridana collector. The years of line breeding gradually accentuated the yellow in many, and are generally noted for having a substantial amount of red in their color scheme, especially as hatchlings. Much more so than say floridana from the cane fields around Okeechobee, etc..

Believe it or not, this is my breeder male as a hatchling

And this is the female as a hatchling. Note the broken heart-shaped marking on her head in both photos.

and both of the above snake's as adults this breeding season

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Love the before and after pics on those guys!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

HAHAAA!, yeah, ......You should see her "born to love" tramp stamp tattoo just above her cloaca!..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, would you explain the difference between brooks and goini? Are they both variants of L.g.floridana?

I include the link to the Kingsnake/Milksnake page.

Thanks.
Link

-----
Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

Brooks are simply lighter forms of floridana that were once thought to ONLY populate extreme southern Florida, and thus given their own subspecific name back in 1919. In 1958 they were re-classified back to "floridana". They can actually be found in in several other areas in Florida, and even be found amongst the typical darker peninsular forms here and there of floridana in certain preferred habitat, usually in close proximity to lighter limestone rock, as opposed to darker muck areas, but not necessarily.

Goini were first described back in 1949 as "Blotched", or Chipola River" kingsnakes from west of the Apalachicola river around Liberty and Franklin counties in the Florida panhandle.

These snakes are thought to be more of a relict isolated form of intergrade kingsnake between getula and floridana that has basically become it's own "entity", and can be extremely variable.

Those and many other types of kings have been very problematic as to them warranting their own subspecific name over the years, and some literature still recognizes them, and some might not. But the fact remains that many breeders and collectors will still refer to these snakes as goini, for their very unique characteristics. I am definitely one of those people that will always refer to these snakes as "goini". It is much simpler and descriptive this way in my opinion.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That helps.
-----
Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas