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Okay last year I produced the Casper California Kingsnakes (Albino Ghost)....

Well this year I produced a HYPO GHOST!

Any ideas for a name?

I produced some really NICE Ghosts this year and will be featuring GHOSTBUSTERS 2010 here real soon.

Kerby...

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I am waiting on a cool clutch to shed and I will have some Calis to post too,
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Kerby...

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That's really amazing.

Kerby, please tell me, what makes a ghost in cal kings?

Thanks a bunch.
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Amy Claiborne

Don't let them take your wasted time. J.T.

In Cal Kings the term "Ghost" refers to a simple single recessive gene that was in some cal kings near Palomar, CA.

Kerby...
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I know I wasn't the only one thinking....doesn't a ghost already have hypo in it? I'm not that familiar with the Cal king morphs. Nice animals by the way!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah Jorge,....

The "ghost" morph Kerby described is known as an "Eiseni" morph. It is a naturally occurring pattern from that Palomar area he mentioned. The natural pattern morph itself was first described from a specimen in the Smithsonian Institution sent in by a guy named Gustav Eiseni in the late 1800's.

The naturally occurring "ghost" morph however is indeed a VERY hypomelanistic animal, and also has a very pale, light belly as compared to the solid dark belly most all others are known to have.

What else is strange about that particular morph is that fact that they typically have much darker heads than the rest of their body.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Brian Hubbs took the liberty of trying to rename the cal kings that have the hypermelanism gene found in the Davis & Mendota areas as "Eiseni". The Palomar specimens DO NOT HAVE the same gene as the Mendotas and Davis. Mendota and Davis hypermelanistic genes are the same. I proved that through breeding. I have also bred then Mendotas to the Palomar/Ghost and they are NOT the same gene.

Palomar/Ghost are not "Eiseni"

Kerby...
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So what you are saying is when you bred those two different "ghosts" together you got normally colored offspring, and the genes were not allelic and compatible, right?

thanks, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

What 2 different Ghosts?

"Eiseni" aren't Ghost. "Eiseni" are the hypermelanistic Mendotas and Davis locales.

The Ghost/Palomars have a different recessive gene than the "Eiseni". When I bred a hypermelanistic to a Ghost I got normal looking babies that were double hets.

Kerby...
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From quite a few years ago.

They are not the same gene. The Ghost/Palomar ARE NOT "Eiseni".

Brian Hubbs took the liberty to try and rename the Mendotas to "Eiseni" in order to protect the LOCATION of the Mendotas. I do not accept that terminology unless taxonomists rename them.

Kerby...

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Okay,.....Hubbs has a very hypomelanistic "ghost" pictured in the book, and calls it a hypomelanistic ghost "Eiseni" morph, so you are saying it is actually better referred to as a ghost Davis/Mendota then, correct??

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, for starters, Brian Hubbs knows nothing about captive breeding or genetics on any snake. I have had numerous talks with Brian about genetics and he just doesn't know. He took the liberty on trying to rename some stuff. I will wait until the experts (taxonomists) rename stuff.

The hypermelanistics (not hypo) of Mendota, Davis and Baja all have the same recessive gene. And THAT gene IS NOT the same as the Ghost/Palomar gene. They are not the same thing.

The Mendotas/Davis & Baja hypermelanistics ARE NOT Ghosts.

Kerby...
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Kerby, yes, I know all about genetics and their proper terminology, and yes, Brian knows NOTHING about mutations or genetics at all. I tried to talk to him years ago about some basic genetics too and he was totally lost about what I was talking about too..LOL!

I think you were first thinking that I got hypermelanism and HYPO-melanism confused with each other in my first post, and that definitely isn't the case. Yes, I know the normal patterned dark hypermelanistic snakes are the Mendota/Davis locale, and that the so-called "Eiseni" does NOT refer to the "ghosts", but rather naturally occurring locale hypermelanistics.

I think we have been on the same page this whole time, except for the ghost animal in the book, that is where I think you thought that I figured "Eiseni" was referring specifically to the "ghost" morph, and I definitely wasn't.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

See the confusion Brian started.

Kerby...
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HAHAHAAA!!,....too funny!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Brian know NOTHING about genetics.

I am glad somebody came out and said it.

He is a great field herper and has collected lots of data. He is a great author and great fiend. But he knows nothing about genetics.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Just to be clear, Brian is a friend. And he knows a lot about catching snakes in the wild.

Kerby...
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And he is the first to admit it too. His forte is definitely field herping, and he most definitely knows his stuff there!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Okay,.....Hubbs has a very hypomelanistic "ghost" pictured in the book, and calls it a hypomelanistic ghost "Eiseni" morph, so you are saying it is actually better referred to as a ghost Davis/Mendota then, correct??

Doug, there is a "Ghost Eiseni morph" in Hubbs book, but its different from the ghost Kerby posted. Its probably a hypo version of that Eiseni pattern type, its extremely light colored.

Kerby, I thought these Ghosts you are breeding were from the Palomar Airport area in Carlsbad down by San Diego, not the Palomar by San Fransisco. Are you sure you have the area right?
btw, very nice looking hypo ghost you have there.
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Yeah, thanks Ross,....

That ghost he has in the book was DEFINITELY a very hypomelanistic "ghost" from that same "Eiseni" locale he described. Same identical pattern as the normal dark hypermelanistic animals.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I got my Ghost cal kings from Brian at B.H.B. awhile back. He said they were from the Palomar area. I have never been to that area, so I am not sure to the exact area he was referring to. I didn't collect them. My understanding from Brian at B.H. B. is that a wild specimen was collected in the early 1990's and whoever had it was not successful in their breeding attempts, then Brian at B.H.B. acquired the snake and bred it to other cal kings, thus proving that it is a single simple recessive gene. I have bred the Ghost into just about every cal king gene there is producing numerous double hets. Should produce some more cool stuff in the future.

Kerby...
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Thats interesting. I wonder if he kept the true pattern look of the original ghosts. All the ghosts I've seen have a chocolate top tail, meaning no pattern above the tail. That trait is something you only see in the Newport's found in L.A. and Orange Counties. It would be very strange to see that trait pop up in Northern CA. Another thing about these ghosts is all the white on their heads, that pattern is something you only see on some San Diego area kings. Everything about the ghost points to it being found in Northern S.D. Co. Its possible this version of the ghost doesn't look like the original in pattern, we know most Cal king breeders breed for pattern not locality type. Maybe it is from up North, who knows.
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Man, I have some old pics I need to scan of some kings from that palomar area that Gary keesler had. I have not had anyone ID this morph yet and I have no idea what happened to the propagation of it.

I need to scan them at walmart and see about posting them for you to identify.
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www.Bluerosy.com

That would be really cool to see, Rainer. I'm sure Hubbs would qualify himself as the man to ID these morphs (lol) but he doesn't seem to check out this forum very often.
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I'm sure Hubbs would qualify himself as the man to ID these morphs (lol)

yes he does qualify himself for wild type morphs. But first you have to argue with him what a morph is.lol.. What you will find out is he calls anything a morph. If it is light he calls it a hypo. But get into axanthic vs lavender or anery vs ghost, as such he has no clue.

With captive bred recessive traits he just labels them Frankenstein morphs.
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www.Bluerosy.com

yes he does qualify himself for wild type morphs. But first you have to argue with him what a morph is.lol.. What you will find out is he calls anything a morph. If it is light he calls it a hypo. But get into axanthic vs lavender or anery vs ghost, as such he has no clue.

With captive bred recessive traits he just labels them Frankenstein morphs.

Yeah, there's many types of kings he likes to call morphs that are not actually true genetic morphs. When I say morphs, I mean morphs as in Newport's, LB Grease kings, and Whittier morphs. Looks that are caused by genetic traits. Some of those morphs in his book are a single morph separated into different groups. One of the most complicated ones are striped kings in Riverside Co. that can be dotted, striped, dashed, barred, and even a mixture of all four to a different degree. No two ever look the same, some just come out with more dots than others, these he calls the dotted morph but it happens by chance. Some with mostly bars he calls them the barred morph, or the one with mostly dashes, which is a stripe broken into many parts, a highway morph because it resembles the broken lines on the highway. I do like the idea everything is named but I don't think the word "morph" should be used for many of them. His book is very useful for the history of these different looks and where they are located in the wild, now breeding experiments need to take place to understand how the genetics work. And it has to be locality breeding because with Cal kings, mixing localities often gives you different results than what you get in the wild. Breed a striped king from SD to a banded from the same area and you rarely get aberrants. Breed a SD striped king to a king from LA and you get mostly aberrants. My friend has proven that with his breedings. There's actually not enough interest in locale breeding for Cal kings, so most of that genetic stuff will probably remain a mystery. I'm doing my own locale breeding to better understand what these snakes are.

As a fellow field herper I can understand why Hubbs makes the Frankenstein comments, we all have our own interests but I don't believe in putting others down because what they like is different. I'm sure Hubbs is messing around but at the same time I'm sure he has his opinions on them. I personally think the captive bred morphs and even hybrids have there place in this hobby. If it takes a crazy looking hybrid to get some kid into snakes, I'm all for it. Look at dogs, they're man made creations and they are one of the coolest animals ever.
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the ghost line that Brian (BHB) has is from the Palomar in San Diego. He outcrossed them almost right away because he said it was a weak bloodline.

hope that helps some.....

byron.d

I know he said he had fertility issues breeding Ghost x Ghost. I never bred Ghost x Ghost as the female would try to kill the male everytime. So I bred Ghost x every recessive gene out there. LOL

Thanks for the locality info.

Kerby...
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Thanks for the info, Byron. Its good to hear because more than likely, that is the pattern of the original ghost.
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That pic is a typical Ghost that are being produced. When I show my 2010 Ghostbusters I will show one that is really dark and one that is really light to everything in between. IMO, they are all really cool looking.

Nice Ghost!

Kerby...
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the ghost line that Brian (BHB) has is from the Palomar in San Diego.

Do you happen to know if that would be the Palomar *mountain* area or the Palomar Airport area in Carlsbad?

Just curious...for some reason I always assumed it was the former but given the number of killer morphs found in and around Carlsbad (BEB in Elfin Forest area for example) I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

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/scott

that i remember hearing about the founding stock being collected near the Palomar mountain observatory. i could be off on that though.
it was very unusual normal that was collected and produced the first ghost.

here is a het ghost from the founding stock - this bloodline was never outcrossed so i wonder if this is what the founding animal looked like....

normal banding but very different color.... i just realized that you cant make it out on the photo but the brown is very milky and the ground color is very off white - not yellow as would be the norm for that area.

byron.d

Thanks...that makes some sense.

Here's a pic of my other Palomar locale king (both this one and the one in my previous post are from ShannonB).

I know what you mean when you say the brown looks milky...it is sorta evident on the head in this shot.

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/scott

Unlikely that it was collected near the Palomar observatory as that is over 5000 ft elevation. Good locale to photograph zonata.
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Rick Staub

Good point, Rick. I have a photo of a king found at 5,000' in one of the S.D. Mountain ranges that's black and white. Any kings in the Palomar Mnts could also be black and white because I've found them on hwy 79 near the foot of the Palomar mountain and they too were b&w. Its more likely The Palomar this king is from is the Palomar Airport or Palomar Airport Rd. in Carlsbad, I think thats Carlsbad. It makes perfect sense because the kings there are mostly brown & yellow and have been collected there for many years because that area has some of if not the highest concentration of Cal kings anywhere. I think the story was mixed up somewhere along the way.
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You make a good point also that I overlooked. The Cal king I posted below definitely has desert influence, not coastal at all. The same would be expected at Mount Palomar up on top since the drop off to the desert to the east is quicker and more adjacent to the area around the observatory. At some areas like just above Lake Henshaw I would definitely expect Cal Kings and zonata to co-exist. Well maybe not as tolerant neighbors.

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Rick Staub

haha No doubt! Thats a very interesting photo. Here's a photo of a king found over the 5,000' elevation mark in one of the S.D. Mountain ranges, not sure which one.

I'm thinking they would more likely look like this or your example near the area in question. Carlsbad is also known for a lot of different aberrant looking kings and morphs. Hubbs has found some of his craziest looking kings there, it makes more sense that would be the right Palomar area, to me at least. Thanks for your input.
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Why would 5,000 feet in elevation be a factor?

In Arizona they are found at elevations higher than 5,000. I live at 5,0000 feet and they are all over the place.

Kerby...
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I'd also like to know that too. I've heard from a lot of Zonata hunters that Cal kings become scarce at those elevations in CA.
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Could be several reason why regular cal kings are not reported often at 5000 ft.

My first guess is herpers at those elevations are in prime zonata habitat and rubber boa elevation. Both the boas and Z's don't often share the same rock outcrops. Even the alligator lizards keep there distance from the others and are found in theor own segregated rock outcrops.. So maybe the Cal kings are there but herpers are not purposfully looking for them like they are the zonanata , charina and seirra aligator lizards..

I mean you are at 5000ft prime life-zone habitat. Why do you want to look for cal kings when you just saw 7 squished ones on the road heading up.

It is just not a target species for us. But that does not mean they aren't common.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Are there different traits of the rock piles each favor, or is it basically whatever got that pile first is what happens to be there? I know there's some species (at least in the midwest) that people find together all the time under AC.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

There is a big difference in topography and habitat at 5000 ft here in CA versus AZ. At that elevation in CA it is usually steep and heavily forested. Not exactly Cal king habitat. I have seen Cal kings in typical zonata habitat but it usually occurs only at the fringes where you are just off the areas with more grassland or chaparral. I have found 2 Cal kings (pic below) above 5000 ft in the Laguna Mtns while looking for zonata. I actually found a zonata and Cal king within 10 ft of each other on the same pile the same day. This area though was adjacent to the more open chaparral where you would expect getula to inhabit. Not saying it is impossible for getula to be found at the observatory, just unlikely from my trips there.

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Rick Staub

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Amy Claiborne

Don't let them take your wasted time. J.T.

The clutch pic. Both parents were triple hets (Ghost, Hypo, Albino).

Kerby...

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So you have one Casper in that Clutch?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Yes, one Casper in the group. A male.

Kerby...
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I like that darker (relative to the others but by no means dark) baby in the upper left of the clutch. What will that snake look like as an adult? Any examples?
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Mark

Maybe like this one?

Kerby...

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>>Maybe like this one?
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>>Kerby...
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Mark

pretty sweet stuff there Kerby. wish I had em, lol.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Kerby,
Another beautiful snake. Congrats! How about Crystal Cal King for a name? Keep up the good work. Drop me a line as I have a question for you. Thanks.

Take care,
Jeff Port

And since in the future I will be having other double homo Ghosts, I will be needing more names and I am trying to keep it in the Ghost realm....depending upon what they look like.

Ghost Whisperer
Pearl Ghost
Lilac Ghost
Ghost Dust
Ghost Hue
etc...

Kerby...
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Frosted Ghost?

I like that as well.

Thanks

Kerby...
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Ice and Ice Crystal or Crystal Ice Might be good ones to depending upon their look and the genetics involved. White ice and black ice (some type of ghost or hypo combination) Just throwing things out there.

Take care,
Jeff Port

Ghostly ghost

and very nice they are

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Paul.

Uk-Hybrids.com