Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is a Prodigy a VPI T positive? Is a Paradise a Paradigm? does anybody know? Seems like there are a million different "lines" of T positive but has anyone bred any of them together to see if they are compatible?

All I know is what I read on the web site. As far as I know, it is not from VPI or a paradigm. It may be something new, or it may be a rediscovery of something already known.

http://www.prodigyboa.com/prodigy.html

I'm positive the Biaphile will chime in soon on this bit he's busy this minute in board meeting. A prodigy is a caramel albino which spontaneously occurred and it's not believed to be related to anything that's also caramel. The paradise boa is a similar anamoly to the paradigm however it is when the prodigy gene and the sharp gene are bred. This is a simple explanation for now, the Boaphile will I'm sure come thru with the real deal.

I personally think there are several lines of the same gene out there. I would be willing to bet the BW caramel, VPI, Prodigy and Nic T are all the same. They all are a leaky T and the Sharp is on the same alle and is a clean form. I'm not a genetic gu-roo but this is my opinion. Some things are kept quiet and not bred together because of money. You have to have this line to breed to this to get this and so on... Money game...Do you think Boaphile bred to a Sharp by accident. He was thinking it was like making a Paradnm or he would have done something differnt.
BW caramel X Sharp = Paradnm
Prodigy X Sharp = Paradise
VPI X Sharp = ? (They say hets,but no conformation)
T Nic. X Sharp= ? (bet things change with cheap Nic t if this happens)
Bet if you breed VPI X BW caramel you get more T ...lol
Hope people don't get to mad but I'll bet this is close...

We already know Sharp and VPI are not compatible.

VPI X Sharp = DH with normal appearance the breeding has been Done
by Tracy Barker in '08

Therefore VPI is different from Sharp and BWC !

That's been said and done !

I used to argue that VPI and BWC must be Bred together to prove
or disprove anything but know I'm much further convinced
that they are just not compatible !

My opinion on the Nic T . . . . they're a completely different Phenotype and will not be
compatible with any Colombians types or Argentine.
That's just my opinion though !

The Russian T Blonde line has me wondering if it could be
compatible with one of the other Colombian types.

. . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Why is a Nic T no compatible? Just because snakes come from different people and places don't make them incompatible. I think the motely Nic and the Columbian motley are the same and have been bred together. Has the T Nic been crossed with anything like Sharp or even another T in the Col or Argintine line?
I also don't think its in peoples best interest to do or even discuss crossing some of these lines. It will only devalue their line...
Like I said one person says it won't work and everyone believes it. I'm not calling anyone out. But, what would they gain and what will they lose is what you should ask?
Hope no one gets mad...LOL

First of all its all about Free speech everyone is welcome to their opinion whether its an educated opinion or not.

Say what's your mind I used to say Joke 'um if they can't take a F***K

You won't see me getting mad or upset on a Forum.

To me its all fun discussion it takes some really stupid thick
headed statements that are said over and over for me
to even get kind of upset or heated.

I'm mostly a laid back dude !

To me the T Nics look too different to be compatible with any
Colombian or Argentine T Pos type Boa.

Like I said earlier that's only my opinion about the T Nic.

I actually think it would a sad sorry sight to Mix Arg T with any C.A. T type Boa.

I do agree with you , people should think long and hard about
ever even trying any of these pairings.

What will the benefits be and what harm and / or
confusion could be caused !

Its always fun to dream about the possibilities , right !?!

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Well, I hate the fact I'm stupid and thick headed. But, uneducated I'm not! Not to toot my horn but most people call me Dr. Hackney. LOL Not for my English or Composition either...
Anyway, I like to keep things simple also, but just cause things look different doesn't matter. IE> BW X Sharp
I just hate people not thinking outside the box and saying thats is the way it is because someone says so or daa it looks different to me. Just open your eyes and look around. You have similar looking animals popping up in several different populations and you say they are all different and not compatibale. Do you realize the odds of them not being the same and actually being different mutations??? How many different mutations have you seen popping up??? Not as many as you think because the are all the same in their own way. T , Motley, Hypo, etc... You see all these forms in each local (Columbian,Argintine,Nic) Like I said, I'll bet they all will cross borders just like the snakes do in the wild! Just listen to everyone and form your own opinion with facts or what you see...
Hope no one gets mad...lol

Yes you can look at the bigger picture but sometimes especially
you being a Dr. must look at the smaller picture.

Look at how many different ways T Pos type animals can occur.

There are multiple ways to create a T Pos animals.

T - Neg animals especially reptiles have only one way to create that T -Neg mutation , that I've read about anyway.

I've read about multiple ways to create T -pos appearances in
animals and specifically Amphibians and reptiles because
there skin is made up of chromatophores.

For instance this is but one of my sources I've read to
understand how Boas skin and pigment work

[Quote:
Chromatophores are pigment-containing and light-reflecting cells found in amphibians, fish, reptiles, crustaceans, and cephalopods
Chromatophores are grouped into subclasses under their color or pigment hue
xanthophores (yellow), erythrophores (red), iridophores (reflective / iridescent), leucophores (white), melanophores (black/brown) and cyanophores (blue).
poikilothermic vertebrates

Xanthophores are the chromatophores responsible for yellow, red, and yellow-red intermediate coloration in poikilotherms. Xanthophores contain more than one pigment, including pteridines, and carotenoids.
/Quote]

Here is another source I love although sadly the link website is currently down for updates

Tyrosinase,Skin Melanophores,and pigment in Amphibians and Reptiles

Here is an explanation from Amphibian Biology & Physiology: Caudata
Link : http://www.livingunderworld.org/biology/caudata/

Skip down a few Paragraphs you'll read this:

The Rest Found in Next Post

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

This continued from above post

Skip down a few Paragraphs you'll read this:

Genetic Defect: There are several requirements to facilitate melanosynthesis, including, but not limited to, the existence of a functional melanophore, differentiation of the chromatoblasts in order to form chromatophores, and the ability to synthesize tyrosinase; Dozens of genes at different loci control these steps. More generally, a melanophore must be able to produce melanin, and so must first be able to produce tyrosinase, a process controlled by a pair of genes. A mutated recessive gene at this albino locus causes albinism by preventing the synthesis of tyrosinase, if both genes are recessive. This type of albinism is called tyrosinase-negative albinism.

Tyrosinase-positive albinism also exists. Tyrosinase-positive species possess tyrosinase and tyrosine, the essential building blocks of melanin, however, conversion of tyrosine and dopa cannot occur because the tyrosine is not transmitted into the melanosomes, where tyrosinase and melanin are synthesized. Recall that the conversions of tyrosine and dopa in melanosynthesis require the catalyst tyrosinase, and melanosynthesis cannot occur in its absence. With tyrosinase-positive animals, there exists the possibility of melanosynthesis occurring, if at some point tyrosine is transmitted to the melanosomes.

Tyrosinase-positive and tyrosinase-negative animals have identical phenotypes, although the genotype is different. Because albinism is caused from different mutations, breeding two albinos does not always guarantee the production of albino offspring. Skin biopsies can be tested for the tyrosinase-positive mutation. When incubated in a dopa solution, melanophores become visible in tyrosinase-positive skin due to the deposition of of granular intracytoplasmic melanin (Bechtel, 1995). In the same test, tyrosinae-negative melanophores remain clear after the treatment.

Its not always simple cut and dried !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Thats all good but it is mainly explaining the difference in Tpos and Tneg or the Kahl and Sharp strains. So, don't all the albinos have to be one or the other?

Yes and No there is only one type of T -Neg but several types of T Pos.

Because there are different ways that Tyrosinase is catalyzed at
different points in the process or possibly
even leaked through osmosis.

Its by no means an uncomplicated issue

Degree of Involvement: Other mutations at the albino locus may result in albinos that contain varying levels of melanin. Such animals may not fit the classical description of an albino, i.e. white with red eyes; instead, this type of albino may have melanin in the eyes or skin. Occasionally those animals called hypomelanistic based on phenotype alone are actually a type of albino.

Skip through to :

With tyrosinase-positive animals, there exists the possibility of melanosynthesis occurring, if at some point tyrosine is transmitted to the melanosomes.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Tyrosinase is the enzyme that converts the amino acid tyrosine into dopamine. Dopamine goes through many chemical changes to ultimately become melanin. The melanin is laid down in granules that mature and migrate from the main part of the cell into cell processes that extend away from the cell's main body.

Ideally, an albino would lack melanin. A tyrosinase negative albino lacks melanin because it has non-functioning tyrosinase. A tyrosinase postive albino has fully functional tyrosinase but lacks melanin because some other enzyme is non-functional.

In practice, a "tyrosinase positive" albino boa constrictor may lack melanin or may have less than the normal amount of melanin.

A tyrosinase positive albino snake may have less than fully functioning tyrosinase. Or the tyrosinase may be normal, but the snake has some other malfunction that has nothing to do with tyrosinase. There may be a copper deficiency. There may be a malfunction in the regulatory process that governs the amount of tyrosinase produced or the speed that it is recycled into other organic compounds. The pigmant cells may be malformed or fewer in number than normal. Or the pigment granules may be smaller than normal, abnormally shaped, fewer than normal, or have some other abnormality.

Sooner or later someone is going to look at the pigment cells through a microscope and give us some better ideas of what is going on.

Thx Paul of course Tyrosinase is the catalyst, . . .. I mis formed that key sentence. . . . .

Here's a post I made sometime back , it's my own attempt to break
a lengthy complicated process into my own shorter version.

T-Pos & T-Neg
Posted by:[/font]LarM at Fri Mar 27 21:52:31 2009

The "T" stands for Tyrosinase. Tyrosinase is a copper-protein enzyme.
First of all this is all related to pigment in the Dermal and epidermal or layers of skin .Melanaphores are responsible for pigment changes through the synthesis of black and brown pigments known as melanin.This chemical process is melanosynthesis.Which is the conversion of the Amino Acid tyrosine into melanin.Tyrosine converts to dihydroxyphenylalanine (dopa), then converts to dopaquinone,but only when a catalyst is present.That catalyst is o-Diphenol oxidase (tyrosinase). Both the synthesis of melanin and tyrosinase occur in the melanosome.At this point Dopaquinone is modified into melanin is transferred onto dendrites and deposited in the appropriate melanophores.
So this is where the terms "Tyrosinase-positive (T )" and "Tyrosinase negative (T-)" albinos originates.
In the T negative animal the catalyst Tyrosinase is not present in the melanaphore. There fore no malanin pigment is created ,this results in an animal possessing no black or brown pigment at all.
In the T Positive form the tyrosinase is produced but doesn't gain proper access to the melanaphore.Although there can be some form of leakage or minor transfer maybe by osmosis not certain resulting in slightly lighter melanin pigments yet darker then the T-Neg version.

. . . Lar M

Paul Thankyou for the added information. I've done my best to understand this subject as complicated as it
at first may seem to be.

. . . . . Lar
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Not bad, but I noticed a couple of problems.

> Both the synthesis of melanin and tyrosinase occur in the melanosome. .... At this point Dopaquinone is modified into melanin is transferred onto dendrites and deposited in the appropriate melanophores.

Melanosomes and melanophores are the same cells in different stages of life. Suggestion:
After Dopaquinone, tyrosinase is not required for melanin synthesis. Dopaquinone goes through a further series of chemical changes to ultimately become melanin. The melanin granules migrate from the pigment cell's main body into projections called dendrites.

> In the T Positive form the tyrosinase is produced but doesn't gain proper access to the melanaphore.Although there can be some form of leakage or minor transfer maybe by osmosis not certain resulting in slightly lighter melanin pigments yet darker then the T-Neg version.

But tyrosinase is produced in the melanophore. Suggestion:
There are many causes for T Positive albinos. The tyrosinase may be abnormal but still capable of participating in melanin synthesis, as in the Siamese cat. The tyrosinase may be completely normal, but a different abnormal enzyme causes a partial block downstream from Dopaquinone in melanin synthesis. The pigment cell dendrites may be abnormal. These are only some of the possibilities.

Paul Hollander

Paul thx for helping me better understand this process.

I think part of what makes this subject confusing for me is that
homeothermic vertebrates (mammals) only have the one type of
Chromatophore which is the melanocyte.

Compared to the poikilothermic vertebrates which have the three -
melanophores, xanthophores, and iridophores.

In mammals phaeomelanin covers the red or yellow colors and
eumelanin covers the black pigments.

( That difference between homeothermic & poikilothermic vertebrates does throw me off )

Dendritic cells are found also in Mammals / homeothermic vertebrates correct ?

>>Melanosomes and melanophores are the same cells in different stages of life.

Just as chromatophores start off as chromatoblasts correct ?

A Melanophore is a type of melanocyte, we know a melanophore is a melanin bearing cell.

Melanosome is the developmental stage when pigment is being
distributed , although pigment is continuously distributed
throughout the life of the cell correct ?

Thankyou for the lessons Paul, each little piece of info that
allows me to gain a stronger grasp of the process is
extremely important to me.

Although the more I learn , the more clearer it becomes
how much more I need to learn

. . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

>> I think part of what makes this subject confusing for me is that homeothermic vertebrates (mammals) only have the one type of Chromatophore which is the melanocyte.

>> Compared to the poikilothermic vertebrates which have the three - melanophores, xanthophores, and iridophores.

>> In mammals phaeomelanin covers the red or yellow colors and eumelanin covers the black pigments.

And birds complicate the issue. They are homeothermic, but depending on the species, the red and yellow can be produced by either phaeomelanin or xanthophores. The brighter reds and yellows are more likely to be produced by xanthophores.

>> (That difference between homeothermic & poikilothermic vertebrates does throw me off )

Endothermic and ectothermic are a bit easier to remember than homeothermic and poikilothermic. Endo = inside, and ecto = outside. Endotherms (mostly mammals and birds) use internal physiological mechanisms to maintain and regulate temperature . Ectotherms (most lower vertebrates) use external means (basking, etc.) to regulate temperature.

>> Dendritic cells are found also in Mammals / homeothermic vertebrates correct ?

Correct. There are some pictures of reptile chromatophores in H. B. Bechtel's book, Amphibian and Reptile Variants.

>> >>Melanosomes and melanophores are the same cells in different stages of life.
>>
>> Just as chromatophores start off as chromatoblasts correct ?
>>
>> A Melanophore is a type of melanocyte, we know a melanophore is a melanin bearing cell.
>>
>> Melanosome is the developmental stage when pigment is being distributed , although pigment is continuously distributed throughout the life of the cell correct ?

Sorry! I was writing melanosome and thinking melanoblast. Here are definitions that I dug out of the medical dictionaries at http://dictionary.reference.com.

melanoblast = an undifferentiated cell that develops into a melanophore or melanocyte.

melanophore = a pigmented cell that contains melanin, found especially in the skin of fishes, amphibians, and reptiles.

melanocyte = an epidermal cell that produces and contains melanin.

melanosome = any of the usually oval pigment granules that are produced by melanocytes.

Melanocyte and melanophore are similar in meaning. Melanoblast and melanophore are different stages in the cell's life. And melanosome is the melanin granule that develops inside a melanophore and migrates into the melanophore's dendrites.

>> Although the more I learn, the more clearer it becomes how much more I need to learn

Me too.

Paul Hollander

I would like to finish by saying , your original point is entirely valid.

There is always a possibility that the Nic T Pos ( as we call them) or other C.A. T Boas
could be compatible with some of the Colombian type T Boas.

I just happen to have a different opinion, doesn't mean I'm right.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

First couple sentences are gems. Ive added them to my wall of quotes.
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-Ryan Homsey
TopNotchBoas.com Website

Nobody calls me Dr. Ronne, though if they did, I don't think I would have posted that as if that made my opinion any more credible or not. But that's me I suppose.

I know several "Boa Guys" who are Drs. in any number of fields, who are affable characters and never have ever whipped out a sheepskin in any discussion with me about Boas or genetics. Even when I have said something stupid, which I have, they didn't find that necessary.

"If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck..." right?

Well, when Brian Sharp in 1991 or 1992 bought an imported Albino Colombian Boa female so he could make a ton of Albino Boas with her and a Het Kahl Albino. That is exactly what everyone else thought would happen. Yet he bred it to a Kahl Albino and found, in fact is not compatible. The assumption was incorrect even though the Sharp Albino looked to be the same thing.

The exact same thing has been proven true of a couple bloodlines of Anerythristics which "look" even more exactly like the others already know in collections.

The fact is, and I do use the word "fact" deliberately, is that nothing is the same until it is proven to be so. Anyone can think two independently produced visual mutations are the same, or they can think they are not. Neither of those thoughts is an accurate opinion though or scientific.

To assume so is certainly human and in some instances will be correct. But, it's a crap shoot. To make that assumption has already been proven to NOT be a reliable method of coming to a conclusion. That method of forming an opinion is not scientific and has been proven in the instances sited to be wrong. It's simply a gut feeling and nothing more.

I do love to think outside the box, so long as I don't slip into the quicksand of coming to an opinion based upon bias, emotion or pride. Still, I am not a Dr. and nobody calls me that. I do fancy myself a logic sort though.

No offense intended in my post either. Just trying to make a couple points.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

ive never heard of this paradise combo between a sharp and a prodigy because ronne just bred the first sucsessfull breeding with a prodigy so i dont know where that info came from but anyway i do know that peter rice in england i belive bred a sharp to a russian/blond t-positive and got a similar result to the paradigm boa but others have also done that breeding and have yet to get the result peter did so theres still alot of questions to be answered but all these strains are different they dont even look the same. and as mr. klevitz said tracy already disproved her vpi line with sharp strain! as far as nic`s t-positives being compared to coloumbians there not even close to the same thing just look at the 2 together that would be way off base to say there all the same just different founding lines. one thing for sure coloumbian t-positive`s are awesome all of them! and i think it`s great we have such a variety of t albino`s to work with and sharp`s are just a bonus considering they have the ability to make 2 kinds of t-positives and the bestlooking of the 2 t-negative albino`s we have in the hobby! hopefully this help`s a little and i didint further confuse you ...lol... regards

The paradise boa was just produced as a premie by Mr. Ronne a couple days ago. He paired a 07' male prodigy with a het sharp female. Two slugs, one normal, and one wicked paradigm looking animal. It was posted just recently on here. Thought I would elaborate on the paradise boa for you.
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Your example lends itself to proving that a single breeding can't prove or disprove anything. So, one person gets the desired result and the other doesn't. What do we know? Pretty much nothing. Did Tracy do this breeding once or were there several breedings? A friend recently had a clutch of 7 eggs from a mojave and a normal ball python. Had this been the first breeding of a mojave, they would seem either not genetic or recessive as he produced ZERO mojaves out of 7 eggs. Completely against the odds, but look at what negative results could be derived from a single breeding. How many albino litters have you heard of where there was only 1 or 2 albinos in a litter of a dozen or more babies? Those could have easily been zero. What was Kahls first albino from het x het breeding....like the 19th baby to come out? So, if it hadn't come out would we assume albinos were not genetic? It just seems there's a lot of rush to state what is or isn't, when in reality there hasn't been enough time to do the necessary breedings to provide the answers needed to make any determinations. In the case of the prodigy, there are 6 animals from ONE litter. Yet, apparently we KNOW they are recessive as Jeff labeled his babies hets, and they will make paradise boas when bred to Sharp strain animals. The animals being recessive is more than likely the case, but with not one breeding producing more prodigy boas since they were spontaneously produced.....how do we KNOW? If someone like myself had produced them and posted them, most would be quick to point this out. I believe there was a lot of "PROVE IT" posts when we were discussing the Blondes. The burden of proof should be equal for everyone.

Amen Brother. The standards are definetly not the same for all. A fantastic post. Take care, Andrew

What exactly is the precedent for your opinion then?

Are you aware of say an Albino of any species that has proven not to be a simple recessive? I am not. Tell us about it.

Perhaps an instance of an unexpected litter where roughly one quarter of the offspring were Leucistic and yet those individual did not prove to be carrying a simple recessive mutation? I have not heard of that. Tell us about it.

Are you aware of an example of where a litter that consisted of roughly a 25% ratio of visual "T-Positive" type animals if proven to not be dominant, proved to not be inherited in a simple recessive manner? I am not. Tell us about it.

There just are several mutations that we know to be inherited in a simple recessive manner. That we know.

The “Prodigy” mutation wasn’t just one freak that popped up that we cannot know what it is exactly. Not an “anomaly” possibility in one crazy animal maybe visually deceiving us all. Seven were actually born in the litter of which one was stillborn.

To doubt the obvious that was produced in the expected roughly 1/4 ratio, is either a little like disbelief of Christopher Columbus claims after his return from the New World with his ships full of the evidence. Or the denial that the United States put a man on the moon. Yes there were those that disbelieved Columbus and there are those that think the moon mission was faked. Those are very few in number.

Still, when Columbus returned from the New World, those who still were not convinced simply did not look to invest in his continue ventures for themselves, blindly, stubbornly or for some other conflicting interest, some chose not to do so. That is certainly within anyone’s right.

Just my simple minded opinion that I would state even if I had no investment in this project. No offence intended. No insults hurled as that is not what I personally do. Simply an argument based upon what we all know to be true.

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

>> Are you aware of say an Albino of any species that has proven not to be a simple recessive?

I agree with almost all of the preceeding post.

Albino is a slippery term. Still, the various T positive albino boas gives considerable leeway in acceptable coloration in albinos.

The dominant white mutant gene in the domestic cat produces a cat with white fur and green, amber, or blue eyes.

The mi locus in the domestic mouse has at least one dominant mutant that produces lighter than normal coloration.

Cremello in horses is a codominant mutant gene.

Lesser platinum in ball pythons is a codominant mutant gene.

Those are just off the top of my head. If you want to say that an albino lacks melanin, including in the eyes, then that means the various T positive albino boas aren't albino, too.

Paul Hollander