Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Took this girl as a rescue today out of a bucket where she lived for 5 months. She is in shed, looks like a ... :]

I have my ideas but lets hear from the experts.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195624

She is in shed, looks like a ... BOA!

There's no way to know where that boa originated, or any boa for that matter, without being able to trace it back to either the breeder, or importer. In fact, here's a post I wrote up on another forum about a year ago:

This is long, but what else would you expect from me? lol

Internet forums are mostly for sharing, and help/advice/info. So why does it seem that some folks are so hesitant to help when somebody asks for help ID'ing a boas locality? It's not that the forum users don't want to help. They honestly do. It's that the notion of identifying an unknown boas locality based on looks alone is very difficult, improbable, even bordering on impossible. To illustrate that point, I've written the following, very long opinion.

There are over 10 subspecies within the boa constrictor genus that have been identified. Some of them are questioned as to whether they're valid ssp (ssp = SubSPecies). There are definitely more than half a dozen. Science recognizes subspecies in boas, and that's as far as it goes. Most of the classifications of boas took place numerous decades ago, before the internet and the wealth of information we have today.

To the untrained eye, all of the ssp look similar. They have strong muscular bodies. They have "saddles" running down their backs. Lateral "badges". And "tail" markings that look different (either in color, shape, or both) than the body saddles. As babies, they're mostly gray. As juveniles their colors change and at times display almost an entire rainbow of colors on one animal. And as adults, they often darken quite a bit.

Within the more than 10 ssp, there are at times a dozen or more "localities" which offer different looking variations of their respective ssp. Science has yet to recognize "localities", but anyone can tell there are differences within some of the subspecies. Some have minor differences, some are rather obvious when seen side by side. Differences such as body color, body shape, body length, pattern density (the number of saddles), even disposition, all the way down to things that need a hands on determination like scale counts all help to determine locality.

Boas caught in the wild from a specific locality (ie, places in Suriname, Mexico, Argentina, etc..) are often referred to as "locality specific" boas. Locality specific does not (in my opinion - although it's VERY nice) have to include the GPS coordinates of capture. At least for now. Their progeny, if the parents are from the same locality as one another, can be labeled as locality specific as well. To many boa enthusiasts, especially those into locality boas, this information in addition to a beautiful animal, can be worth more than "unknown" information.

A person new to the hobby who has seen a few pictures on the internet has seen the "best of the best" on the forums and in books. The most visually striking examples of these localities and their features are obviously different from one animal to the next. The animals available in petstores, craigslist, newspapers, and wholesalers are generally not of the same quality.

Specialized internet forum based classifieds are a great way to pick up a known locality boa with above average looks, IF you do your homework. As with any product and vendor on the internet, as a buyer you should do your research to ensure a smooth transaction. Please remember that bad sellers are generally not a reflection of the website on which they advertise.

When turning to the common resellers of boas (pet stores, craigslist, reptile swaps, newspapers, your friend, or a friend of a friend, etc.. and even some on internet based classifieds), you typically, but not always, do not get the quality and lineage that you would get from a well known reptile breeder or importer. These are sometimes referred to as "pet quality" boas. These boas have about as much relevance to the locality specific boa community as a python - that's a snake joke - go ahead, laugh! That is not to say these boas do not deserve a good life, or a good home. It is to say that if your goal is to produce boas from a specific locality, these are NOT the boas you should be purchasing. If your goal is to produce more pet quality boas and wholesale them, by all means, put forth the effort to do so.

I'm finally getting to my point!

Polygenic traits are traits that are not systematically inheritable. They're most like skin tone in humans. Sometimes you look like mom. Sometimes you look like dad. Sometimes you look like a blending of the two. And sometimes you look like an aunt or uncle or grandma or grandpa! Occasionally, EEEK! You look like the milkman!

When breeding boas of differing localities and even subspecies, some animals are produced with overwhelming polygenic traits. For instance, say what's known as a "common boa" or, a boa constrictor imperator originating from Colombia, South America is bred to a Suriname boa, or a boa constrictor constrictor originating from Suriname, South America. The origin of these two boas are thousands of miles apart in South America with rivers, mountains, and rainforests separating them and there is essentially zero chance they would ever meet had they been left in the wild. They are also of different subspecies (BCI and BCC) and are visually distinct animals. But if they're bred, the result will likely be a few babies that look almost like mom, a few that look almost like dad, and very likely the majority of them will look like a blending of the two - with identifiable traits coming from both parents. You may also end up with some that look like neither parent which can be the result of the blending of the genes, or sometimes the "grandma/grandpa" factor rears its head!

Often times in crossing boas of different localities, the localities aren't so disparate. Often times, the breeding is for example, a Colombian boa to a Nicaraguan boa. The breeder rationalizes it by saying, "they're both boa constrictor imperator, and that's where science stopped classifying them, so where's the harm?" The harm comes in when you realize that locality DOES make a difference in the appearance, size, and body structure of an animal. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have allowed these boas to evolve to their specific environment and the traits they have are not by accident. The boas will function perfectly in captivity and can and probably will live very long healthy lives. But these boas are NOT locality specific boas. Much like a python is not. There's the joke again

So now the breeder has these boas, what do they do with them? They never intended to raise up 15 or 20 babies. That's a LOT of rats, and a LOT of caging! Plus they're all related to each other so if there are plans to breed any of them, now there's a need for another 20 boas so brother and sister don't breed each other!

Perhaps there was a desire to produce one or two to raise up as pets. Perfect! Those two have a great home for the next 20+ years. What about the other 18?

They're eagerly posted on the internet calling them whatever comes to mind. "Baby boas for sale" is commonly seen. The seller gets a few inquiries from people because of the low price of $60 each but once they find out they're what's commonly referred to as "crosses" (often denoted with an "X" like "Colombian X Nicaraguan", very few people, or very likely, no one wants them. And the conclusion is reached that selling boas on the internet is not so easy. So the seller notices an ad on the classifieds (or takes them to a local petstore) stating that someone is looking to buy entire litters of boas, but only at wholesale prices. So a deal is made and they agree to buy the baby boas at $25 each, and the seller happily sells them because no one else wants them. They then get sold off, one by one, to new folks in the hobby who are just like the original seller was a few years prior. Excited. Anxious. Hopeful. The new buyers then immediately turn around and post a thread on a forum they found and ask folks to "ID PLEASE" their new boa.

So what's the feedback the new boa owner gets? Option one, potentially none. Is it because "boa folks" aren't willing to help? No. I promise that's not it. It's that, for someone to make a determination with any certainty, they need a LOT of information - and they have to consider EVERY WORD I wrote above and decide whether it's a good idea to stick their neck out and essentially guess and risk looking dumb. Why would they look dumb? Because as I stated before, the progeny of crossed localities can look like mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, or a mix of any of them, or none of them. A few, some, many, or all of the traits inherent to the initial localities can be lost. So the "guesser" may look dumb based on what they see, or don't see in the boa.

Option two, the new owner could get someone who's never owned a boa in their life telling them it looks like a cross between a Peruvian and an Argentine. Or someone else says that it looks like a pure Sonoran boa, or another person says maybe it's even a new morph! They may even get some correct guesses. "It looks like a Nicaraguan X Colombian cross to me." But is that what the poster wanted to hear? Probably not. And it's mixed in with 15 other guesses as well, so who's right? Usually, the new owner wanted to hear that their boa was pure, so they could breed it to another pure boa from the same locality and produce more pure boas. And get rich! lol

So you've found yourself in a situation where your hopes of breeding your new boa and producing more is looking grim. You're now realizing that the demand for the babies probably won't be there. So you have the following decision ahead of you. Do you give it away as a pet quality boa? Sell it as a pet quality boa? Do you keep it, raise it, and let it live it's long life with you? Or do you wait several years and breed it, and produce more unknown locality boas, while knowing there will probably be little to no demand for the offspring? It's up to you. It really depends on your "end game" as to what's the best decision for you. None of those options is right, none is wrong. They're just options. But keep in mind, lower demand animals of every kind (snakes, birds, cats, dogs, etc..), have a higher probability of being unwanted and mistreated for their entire lives.

Having said all of the above, sometimes it can be determined with some certainty, the approximate origin of a boa. However, it's usually much more broad than one would want to be able to play in the locality specific boa game. To me, a "locality" ID is next to impossible in any above situation. I don't feel like anyone could ever say "that unknown boa is ....", for example a "Cancun boa" or a "Suriname boa", etc.. However, guesses such as Guyana Shield BCC or Amazon Basin BCC or Central American BCI can be offered with some confidence. OCCASIONALLY!!! But remember, at best, they're GUESSES! Nothing more. To illustrate, take this example:

-A person buys a boa and posts a thread asking where it's from. It appears to those with a trained eye, that the boa is a BCI. In fact, it's small and it's known that the boa is at least 7 years old as it's a WC and has been in the US for 7 years. It's relatively dark with large saddles, more than a BCC would have. So it's assumed to be some locality of Central American boa. But which one? There are 8 countries in Central America and several localities beyond just the eight countries. So, just throwing out a number, say there are 15 possible localities of origin. Any one guess, statistically, has a 93.3% chance of being wrong. What COULD be more correct, is saying that the animal is a Central American BCI. It's less specific, but more than likely accurate. Scale counts could possibly be helpful. But remember, an educated guess is still a guess. What's NOT wrong is saying it's a pet quality boa. That is always right. Even if you have very exact, GPS quality coordinates to determine locality. It can still be a pet quality boa.

A second example, same basic scenario, but with BCC:
-This boa appears to be a BCC, to those with a trained eye. In fact, it looks like one from the Northeastern range of the species. There are 6 possible countries that the boa could come from: Trinidad and Tobago, Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, and Brazil. So a guess at which one it could possibly be would have an 83.3% chance of being wrong. In this case, we could narrow it down with a little certainty to one of 2 countries (Suriname or Guyana because the other countries do not have large populations of boas in captivity - especially WC), but even that is just an assumption. But now, based on an assumption, you're down to a 50/50 shot. Not the best odds. However, if you chose to label the animal as a Guyana Shield BCC, you could be fairly certain that you're being as honest and accurate as possible, given the situation and the desire to have a regional description of the boa. Again, scale counts might be helpful. And remember, it's still just a guess, albeit an educated guess! Again, "pet quality boa" is always 100% correct.

To wrap this long diatribe up. If you post asking for help identifying a boas locality, any responses are a guess at best. Additionally, you're probably best off if you avoid labeling the animal from any specific country or city. A region might be as specific as you want to get. Central American BCI. Just "BCI". Guyana Shield BCC. Amazon Basin BCC. Labels such as those while being VERY generic, have a greater likelihood of being correct. But even those may not be accurate. Your best bet is to call it a beautiful boa that you love. A pet that you will care for as well as you possibly can.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

DUDE..................

LOL I love reading your crazy posts when i get on a roll LOL to funny. My last post was a joke btw I love ranters and ravers. But all in all your in depth post have VERY GOOD LOGIC INDEED!!!

Touché

Glad you love my rants! They're fun sometimes. I don't know what gets into me. I just sit down to write a quick reply and then 45 minutes later my fingers are bleeding! lol

Luckily, I didn't have to type that one today. I just copied and pasted it from another forum where I CLEARLY went on a rant over a year ago

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Bismillah!! I think I will save a link to your post for the next "what morph is this" post....LOL You pretty much sum it up alot more eloquently that I can...LOL
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

She's in shed . . . Not to mention that picture is terrible.

She looks possibly as if she is a cross / intergrade between a
Hypo or Salmon and some sort of Bcc.

That's a complete guess !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Im 99.9% sure it came somewhere from Venezuela for sure! =D
Great BOA BTW!!!!!
Regards,
Jake Britton

Well I have to call bu$$s^&* haha lol

Looks like a peruvian cross to me ...

thanks for your opinions

Argentine? cant give an opinion?

Hog? no opinion?

BCC?

come on ... I agree that it can be hard to tell for sure where these boas may come from but certainly certain areas have certain attributes, and yes BCC location can be almost impossible, but I was just asking for some good old fun local opinions.

lighten up in my opinion :]

and by the way who asked about morphs? lol

Why would you then insult the people who offered insight. In fact, why even bother asking for opinions when you clearly already had your expert mind made up?
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

I hear you man.... It's always the same deal... people come on... ask a question... and then want to fuss when they dont agree with the answers.,.... I generally stay away from those "What kind of boa" threads..... They always tick me off more than anything... Or the famous "I got this at a pet store, what kind of morph is this?" threads...LOL
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

I didn't read that at all.

I think he is just asking for opinions from other forum members.

I think it's great that you took in a rescue. That's what our hobbie needs. There are lots of people who purchase boas or other such reptiles without understanding the requirements and then abandon them which only ends up hurting our hobby.

My guess is that your rescue is part peruvian by the look of the saddles.

so many others would not consider owning a "mutt" constrictor as they are not good enough to be in their collections.

great work! you've inspired me to consider doing the same if the opportunity presents itself.

patrick