Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a link to the pic of the Het Albino Deppei

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.php?id=400941

Does anyone know anything about these?

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Big Thanks for the link Tom, appreciated Sir!

you defo caught my interest with the first post buddy

Rgds.......AL

Hi Tom,

Do you think its poss a mis labelled het hypo!? thats my intial reaction.

rgds.......AL

Thats what I was thinking, mislabeled amel instead of hypo or has bred another ssp in the mix making them hybrids. Or is just trying to pull a quick one to make a sale...

My guess is that it's mislabeled and should read het hypo.

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Randy Whittington

Beautiful beast you've got there, Randy

But... counting dorsal markings and scales between them, it's got to be a jani, right (joking, of course)

I've only skimmed Stull's study, so maybe I'm missing something -- but does the jani/deppei distinction strike anyone else as pretty darn weak?

"I've only skimmed Stull's study, so maybe I'm missing something -- but does the jani/deppei distinction strike anyone else as pretty darn weak?"

I'm with you on this one. Some minor differences in color, pattern and average size, but that's about it. Since variability has not been sampled throughout the species' natural range, these differences may just as well be attributed to clinal variation.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

I have to disagree somewhat here mate.There is a lot of differences phenotypically between deppei deppei and deppei jani imo.
For starters the head shape is different and also one is a pine ,the other a gopher.

If you keep both species the differences are quite obvious in pure examples.

AL

I'm not quite sure what you mean by one being a pine and the other being a gopher? From the studies I've read (references and links below) P. deppei and P. lineaticollis fall outside of both P. catenifer (gophers?) and P. melanoleucus (pine?) -- being more closely related to gophers than pines.

My main point: our concept of what's deppei and what's jani may be based on some extreme phenotypes of one or both subspecies. There may be wild jani that most in the trade would incorrectly call deppei (or vice versa). Furthermore - it's possible there are captive "deppei" with some catenifer ancestry - this may further skew our perception of subspecific differences in P. deppei.

I 100% agree there are clear average differences between the two subspecies of P. deppei, however other than Stull's study I haven't seen any work measuring subspecies variation in wild P. deppei which shows that the two subspecies can be confidently distinguished from one another.

I'm also not clear on using prefrontal scale counts to distinguish between "pure" P. d. deppei and potential P. d. deppei X P. catenifer. Quoting Stull: "A single specimen of deppei shows four prefrontals, however, while a very small percentage of specimens of sayi, deserticola, and catenifer have only two prefrontals."

Signs of hybridisation, or just variation within "pure" deppei?

Here's an example photo of a locality deppei from the north of their range (i.e. near catenifer), showing 4 prefrontals.

It seems possible (likely?) that these "P. d. deppei" with 4 prefrontals may be hybrids? It appears 4 is rare to find in P. d. jani (although count prefrontals on this photo of a "wild... jani")?

I think the answers to most of these questions is "we don't know" - and we probably won't until someone does the field work

References & PDFs:

1. Stull, Olive Griffith. 1940. Variations and Relationships in the Snakes of the Genus Pituophis. Bull. of the US National Museum. URL: http://si-pddr.si.edu/dspace/handle/10088/10216

2. Rodriguez-Robles, Javier A., De Jesus-Escobar, Jose M. 2000. Molecular Systematics of NewWorld Gopher, Bull, and Pinesnakes (Pituophis: Colubridae), a Transcontinental Species Complex. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. URL: http://faculty.unlv.edu/jrodriguez/21.pdf

Interesting questions.

I can tell you that in Durango, MX, just west of Ciudad Durango in (lower) elevation Chihuahuan Desert you have affinis (just like in Texas affinis, atrox, Heterodon, & Coachwhips), and a few miles west at a higher elevation and different habitat/life zone you have deppei deppei and that there is an excellent chace for overlap. I would bet that they do indeed overlap/ mix.

I'll have to add Durango onto my list of potential vacation spots

Don't remember seeing it at the show. I will keep an eye out for it at the other Florida shows to see if it pops up again. If its truly het amel I would like to see the parent that proves it.

Does the price really say $45? Can't be a new amel gene.
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Nick Puder
www.rnpreptiles.com